Fat burning - where to start.

[KD Jones]

OK. So I've got my weight to appoximately where I want it given current muscle mass, and I've dumped caffeine and sugar.

Now I'm looking to the next step.

I've been trying to absorb the information in this excellent thread:
Retraining your cells to burn fat instead of sugar
http://www.circularstrengthmag.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=9900

But there's more than I can fit into my tiny brain right now, so, I'm looking for an educated opinion on where to start. I think I really need a jumping off point from which I can start incorporating the ideas, and experimenting with my body's reactions.

Is there a consensus for the Rosedale diet? Or does anyone (especially Kathryn or Coach Sonnon, apparently) have another general suggestion.

I know this cannot be a "prescriptive" request, and I won't take it as such. Just a start.

Thanks and blessings.

[Ryan]

Hey KD,

I bought the book, "The Rosedale Diet," by Ron Rosedale, and the approach makes a lot of sense. It has been very difficult for me to try and adhere to the diet itself, probably for the same reasons that the Paleo Diet has been difficult- I get board with the selection. Part of this is a lingering addiction to sugar. Honestly, I haven't made it more that a week on the initial phases of the program(s). The way I understand it, most of your calories come from good fats, carbohydrate intake mainly in the form of veggies (or in later phases of the diet, low carb bread or wraps) and protein 70 or so grams a day (depending on your activity level). Part of my other problem is that my wife and daughter are definitly not attempting any change in their eating patterns, which means that foods that don't gel well with my sugar sensitivity are littered around the house.

Personally, I can't recommend it simply because I have not been able to implement it in my own life, but the science seems sound. At the very least it's good food for thought...

Good Luck!

[shadow]

for me it seems like i am one of those lucky people who metabolises fat very quickly and instead i have a problem with being too thin!

anyways when i was younger i began weight training, i did manage to put on quite a bit of muscle mass but then when i stopped it all turned to fat... and this fat wasn't metabolised easily, i just carried it around with me.

in 2004 for a uni assignment i did a project called "whats in the food we eat?" i was shocked about food, and radically changed my eating habits.

i dropped all refined flour, sugar, processed meats, etc.
and i switched to organic food and whole grains. i did this without any of the tapering reccomended as i wasn't following any diet, i just knew too many details about the food i was putting in my body now to want to eat that junk anymore.

i dropped about 10 kg in 3 weeks without altering anything but the food i put in my body.
i haven't put on any fat since then, although with the clubs and CST practice, muscle is coming on slowly.

just a personal story and a possible place for you to start looking..... if you aren't eating organic already, have a try.
eat whole foods and avoid anything processed (even organic processed foods, as processed stuff will always have exceptionally high calories as it is concentrated).

same advice as usual.... plenty of veggies, adequate protein intake, minimise grains, avoid cooking with oil (unless it's coconut oil) and avoid all mono-unsaturated fats (unless you are very familiar where they are coming from, like organic hemp seed oil.... i.e. stay away from vegetable oils!!! canola oil!!! sunflower oil!!! safflower oil!!! etc)

and so on.
haha.

[Coach Flanagan]

The Rosedale diet is a great foundation for a solid nutritional program. Everyone should at least read it, regardless of how they decide to implement it.


I have a problem with being too thin!
The thing about the Rosedale diet that I find so gosh darn fascinating is it explains how one can train their bodies to not only be either a Sugar Burner or a Fat Burner - but also a Protein burner. This would explain why so many people(myself included), have trouble adding lean muscle mass - Their bodies are using all the protein as fuel. I'm in the process of gradually decreasing my protein intake and will see what results it brings. Meanwhile, my Brother Patrick who follows the Rosedale Diet word-for-word put on some very impressive lean mass(20 lbs?) in a short period of time - when he first started using the 15 lb Clubbells and following the Rosedale diet.

[shadow]

do you think you could give more details about what you just said above regarding thinness, before i think about buying the book (limited funds, saving for travel and all other funds allocated towards purchasing more RMAX materials ;))

[KD Jones]

Sean -

Very intriguing. Certainly enough to cause me to get the book.

I've noticed some of the same "lean muscle" issues. I'm not looking for bulk, but I have this vague sense that my work isn't proceeding quite the way it should be...

Damien -

You're right, I'm being more careful about the sources, and have found (by disaster) that white flour products are deathly for me.

Thanks and blessings.

[Coach Flanagan]

Damien,

here is a very gross simplification:

You train your body to use the fuel source that you feed it. If you were to consume a diet of mostly grains, your body would be trained then to run on sugar as its primary fuel source. When your hungry, your body will then start going after sugar storage in your body, which leads to a bunch of crap that for the sake of this discussion, we dont need to go any deeper.

If you train your body to use fat as its primary fuel source with a diet rich in oils, when your hungry, your body will burn bodyfat to fuel it. This is great for a mulitude of reasons but right now we dont need to go into it, and I'm a bit rusty anyway :wink: :lol:

Now in that same way, if protein is your primary fuel source and you eat a diet of all tuna fish, when you are hungry, your body will start catabolizing muscle tissue to get that protein. Even if you're consuming 3,500 calories a day trying to "beef up", your body will still be eating more skeletal muscle than its building.

Its all conditioning - If you condition your body to use fat as its fuel source, it will. If you condition your body to use protein as its fuel source, it will.

In The Rosedale Diet, theres much more depth to the explanation and application of that concept. I provided in very black and white terms above, but of course there are shades of grey in terms of what fuel source a person runs on due to the biochemstry changes that occur depending on the macronutrient levels.

[shadow]

hmmm thats interesting....

i don't think my body would be a protein fuel-source burner as in the past i ate largely refined carbs and then when i changed i became pretty much vegetarian for a while eating lots of veggies.

at this point i have upped my protein content, but i eat pretty balanced between carbs, veggies, proteins, fats.

perhaps an experiment would be to have a day or two fast and see what food i crave the most?

(i have done day long fasts in the past and it's not too big a deal, but i haven't paid much attention to what food i wanted).

..... so what is it you do to retrain your body for a different fuel source? what is the best fuel source to be using?

[Coach Flanagan]

Being a sugar burner can also contribute to the same muscle catabolism as being a protein burner, though the physiological reason why is evading me at the moment.

The Best Fuel source to be using, according to The Rosedale Diet is Fat. Ron Rosedale goes pretty in depth with the explanation of why and how though basically the changes that happen when your body begins using fat as fuel cause an extremely high rate of growth and repair during times of rest instead of freaking out in fight or flight mode like while running on sugar. That and people are really into burning fat for some other reason, especially with the upcoming summer here in the northern hemisphere :lol:

[Ryan]

All right guys, reading this thread is giving me new motivation to get past the first 3 weeks on the Rosedale Diet. After that time, if I still feel like garbage and my cravings are through the roof, I will allow some non-fiber carbs back in. Where would I post my logs or should I check back in after the three weeks are over?

[sschaula]

You need to be careful eating a high fat diet, if you're trying to lose body fat. Fat has a higher calorie content, 9 in a gram (compared to protein and carbs both being 4). Think about that for a second. It's more than twice as much calories per gram. If you're trying to lose body fat, keep a close watch...you may make the same mistake I did for a while and eat too much fat!

[patflanagan]

While it is true Scott that fat has a much higher concentration of calories per serving, that fact doesn't have to have a bearing on body fat gains necessarily.

First, you don't have to grow crazy on quantity. For example, my breakfast this morning was a few chicken nuggets, 2 tbls of olive oil, a little bit of hummus, and some raw veggies. I estimate my calorie intake was probably 550 with around 300 coming from fat. 550 calories doesn't really seem excessive to me. Also since when the body is trained properly fat is more satisfying, I also won't need to eat for a longer period of time in comparison to when I ate less fat/more carbs.

Second, I'm not really convinced that calorie intake is the major factor in body fat gain. Since insulin is the hormone that regulates fat storage, if your insulin levels are kept low by eating low amounts of sugar and refined grains your body will not start storing those excess calories if there are any.

Third, as has been discussed once the body has been trained to consume fat as it energy source whenever you have not eaten (for example sleep after glycogen storage is gone) your body will begin consuming the fat stores in your body other than muscle. Again low sugar amounts are key since the body views sugar as a much more pressing need to get rid of than fat since sugar is toxic in high amounts. So if you have sugar in your system that is what will be consumed not your fat stores.

[Connie Brown]

If the CST guidelines for nutrition aren't specific enough, I think the meals and timing described in Crossfit Journal 21 are a good start. It's based on the Zone but you could do as much Rosedale carb as you wanted. Or subscribe to Performance Menu, to which our own Scott Hagnas contributes, for help with eating.

Just a couple of thoughts -

"Tabula Rasa" and incremental progression. There's no such thing as a clean slate for nutrition - each person will come to Rosedale from a different metabolic place. If a sudden change to Rosedale makes you feel and perform like crap - then you are training feeling like crap, no? throwing in some non-fiber carbs for a transition makes sense to me. Rosedale doesn't talk that way though.

9 calories per gram of fat - oh sigh. That is only true for the fats that are burned completely. But some of the fat we take in, goes unchanged, and un-burned, to structures like the fatty membrane around the brain.
Yes it's true we can eat too much fat but it's not all about the calories.

I hate to sound like a one-trick pony but sugar addiction has been mentioned. That depletes serotonin among other things. For people with a history of addiction, the protein-and-veggies option can deplete serotonin over time. Or, coming from addiction and if your serotonin is not restored, that might be a problem.

[KD Jones]

Connie -

Where are the CST guidelines listed out?

and

How can I subscribe to Scott Hagnas' Performance Menu?

Thanks.

[Connie Brown]

The CST guidelines are an Announcement at the top of the Nutrition forum. (sorry technical glitch makes it hard for me to post the link)

I'd ask Scott H about the performance menu, or google it with Hagnas and Robb and Nikki (other authors)

[KD Jones]

Good to go.

[sschaula]

Perhaps I shouldn't have mentioned the c-word...calories. Instead I should have said this:

My body type is basically the inbetween everything body type. I have a medium metabolism. It's easy for me to give myself a muscular build, a fat body, or a skinny body. I've experimented with higher fat dieting and haven't seen any good results, beyond my skin being healthier.

It's not easy to lose fat when you're primarily eating it. Even if it's good fat. Connie, you have said in your journal that you have too much body fat, have you not? Correct me if I'm mistaken there...and also I hope you don't take offense by me thinking that.

They say "Never trust a skinny chef", and I also say "Never trust an overweight dietician". Once again, I don't mean to offend and I really hope I don't, but I hope that I'm making this clear: eating a diet primarily consisting of fat may be tricky if you're trying to lose weight.

If anyone is going to take my advice, based on my personal experience, I'll give them this: eat normal amounts of everything.

[Jarlo Ilano]

They say "Never trust a skinny chef", and I also say "Never trust an overweight dietician". Once again, I don't mean to offend and I really hope I don't, but I hope that I'm making this clear: eating a diet primarily consisting of fat may be tricky if you're trying to lose weight.

This is tricky....

I have never carried alot of bodyfat ever. I've been as low as 6% and as high as 12% (measured by skinfold and underwater weighing)...
People have always assumed that I eat super clean and healthy. And they would be flat out wrong. Though I am changing.

I might look like I know alot about maintaining/losing bodyfat. But, truthfully I didn't.

Personally, I wouldn't take my advice (or even someone else that has a structure that looks like mine) over Connie's. For real.

[patflanagan]

It's not easy to lose fat when you're primarily eating it. Even if it's good fat.

Has that been your experience and if so were you avoiding starches at the time you were eating primarily fat? If all you've done is increase the fat and keeping the carbs the same your body will still need to consume the carbs first for the earlier mentioned reasons. If your body is able to get your energy needs from the carbs you are consuming, your body will never need or try to make the adjustment to being a fat burner-Law of Adaptation. Thus all you would get is better skin. To train your body to consume fat the following is needed: most calories of fat, medium protein, low starches to the extent where your body would need to go to fat for required energy demands.


eat normal amounts of everything.

What would normal amounts be?

[Ryan]

Not to hijack the thread, but Connie, you mentioned, with regard to sugar addiction, the further depletion of seritonin levels or lack of in the first place. Are you suggesting that, as I am sugar sensitive, I might be trying to play catch-up if I make an abrupt transition? Granted, the first time I tried to do Rosedale nutrition, I wasn't feeling the best, but once again, I was board within three days. I've also read that other people have had a difficult transition but three weeks later emerge feeling better than they have in a long time. I was going to resign myself to a difficult three weeks for gain out the other side. Your quote about training to feel like crap makes sense (that is, you're teaching yourself to feel that way, not feeling like crap is a good thing :wink: ) I guess I figure when I come out the other side I will feel well, balanced mentally/emotionally, and getting a sound night's sleep (I've been having trouble sleeping, unquiet mind).

KD, no caffine, no sugar for 5 weeks; I bet you're sleeping a lot better!

[KD Jones]

Yes, I'm sleeping better. And I'm more calm (given the ADD).

I did have that one day I mentioned recently where everything fell apart... apparently a combination of white flour, goofy sleep (kids) and ADD meds being off gave me one of those days of walking around, bumping into invisible zombies, and thinking "I'd rather be dead, dead, dead than have this disgusting disease. Or adaptation. Or whatever it is."

But that was 2 days ago... now things are much, much better.

And it's surprising how changes that one thinks are going to be isolated somehow, aren't. I changed my relationship to food and these two substances, and my life is changing in a variety of unexpected ways.

Everything we do affects everything we do... I'm finding that if I stay awake, every day is a chance to be surprised how much I didn't know how true that really is.

[sschaula]

Jarlo said,

Personally, I wouldn't take my advice (or even someone else that has a structure that looks like mine) over Connie's. For real.

I agree. But I also think that an overweight person telling people how to lose weight can't be trusted. An overweight person telling others how to eat healthily, on the other hand, seems alright to me.

I really don't mean to offend Connie though, seeing as how I've never actually seen her. My comments are ONLY based on one of her posts from a while back where she said she wanted to lose some more pounds. I almost deleted my post after I made it, because I really don't want to offend anyone here.

Pat said,

Has that been your experience and if so were you avoiding starches at the time you were eating primarily fat?

Yes, that was my experience. Other than that, eating a low carb/high fat diet just doesn't feel right to me, but I'll admit that it may feel right to someone else. Perhaps I didn't do it long enough...I only did it for 2 weeks.

I don't plan on doing it again. I now believe that eating good fats, good carbs and good proteins, in normal amounts at normal times in a day is the most sensible approach to nutrition. By normal, I mean whatever feels not strange. Normal amounts are when you're not thinking "this is too little" or "this is too much", and also where you're not hungry and you're not stuffed. Normal times for me are making breakfast after waking up, having a lunch some time around noon and having a dinner around 6. If I feel like having a snack in between a meal, I'll space out the meal afterwards another hour or two, otherwise I won't be hungry until then. Pretty much, calling a way of eating "normal" is just an intuitive assessment. A 5 on a scale of 1 - 10.

Anyway I think I'm gonna bow out of this thread now! I'm not in a position to talk about losing weight because I've had trouble lately with it, anyway. My next cycle will be a weight loss one, so we'll see how my nutrition and exercise goes. I'll post pictures of before and after in my training log.

[patflanagan]

Good luck on that cycle Scott! :)

[Coach Flanagan]

Back when I had my sugar issues, it felt pretty normal to start the day off with cheerios with sugar on top and a pop tart and a couple bags of chips with Lunch. It also felt pretty normal to have to take medication for ADHD from the biochemical war that was going on inside my body from all that sugar.

Its important not to see what you're comfortable with and afraid to break away from and confuse it with what your intuition is telling you is best. Its a common trap that no one is safe from. I've heard people tell me that they eat Donuts because their intuition tells them its "good for their soul" - I'm a bit skeptical when I see them extremely anxious all the time and looking 10 years older than they are. Addiction, in all its forms, conceals intuition.


And in regards to listening to Connie in regards to the subject of weight loss I'll say this. I'd rather have a C Student in math who used to be a F student help me out with equations than someone who is naturally an A student. To make any sort of great progress(see her training log) usually means a great understanding of the process of how to get better.

[Connie Brown]

Hey it's all cool. Yes I am still fat, but on the other hand, I AM losing now that I'm working it more. Turns out I have to do everything anyone ever thought of, with no wiggle room. I would not be offended one bit if no one listens to me until I'm not fat. I have done a lot of things wrong to get here - and one of them was a year doing low-carb stupidly (not enough attention to fibrous carbs) and not paying attention to the underlying effects of having eaten wrong for so long.

One of the biggest things I did wrong was following diet after diet without paying attention to the effects on my own system. The ultimate disconnect. This is what gives me personally a little contempt for diets that have you ignore bad outcomes and just wait it out.

I guess each person has to decide for themselves, when discomfort comes from the good kind of pushing that triggers positive adaptation, or when it is just dumb or harmful and keeps you starting over and over and over.

I would note that Rosedale is about fat loss and keeping fat off permanently, not necessarily eating for high performance. If you check out his exercise recommendations it's moderate level for 15-30 minutes a day which may or may not match a CST athlete's work. Also, he does not say to check your physical and emotional energy as you go - as if those are irrelevant, which with a goal of fat loss, is appropriate I guess.

About serotonin - this is an area of big controversy in low carb. Some say eating proper low-carb will restore serotonin naturally as your health improves, some say you need some "good carb" for controlled insulin rises (not spikes), some say the problem is low omega3s after too long eating improper fat profiles. I know for a fact myself I had a low-serotonin state after first careless eating and then my year with low carb. Who's to say what it all was.

So, talk on folks! good thread.

[KD Jones]

Addiction, in all its forms, conceals intuition.

Ohhh. I wrote a song with lots of lovely lyrics to that effect. The chorus is one of my best bits.

YOU got it in 7 words.

booger.

[patflanagan]

I spent some time this morning thinking about the discomfort involved in starting diets. For me its hard to say...I didn't start the Rosedale cold turkey so to speak. For me nutrition had nothing to do with weight loss, I just felt lousy all the time so I was forced to be in tune with my system.

For me the first step was eliminating sugar completely a few years ago, which I had serious discomfort for about a month. I guess I would expect this because its like coming off of any drug. Then I was on a high protein, low carb diet which was great for a little while but even then I started feeling low in energy. So when I did start the Rosedale diet I didn't experience any discomfort at all, because I had been doing a very long term incremental progression. I believe the book does say though that it would take two weeks of strickly following it to completely train your metabolism to start feeling comfortable. To me a few weeks of discomfort doesn't seem so extreme or unexpected but if you were to have long term discomfort obviously that would be a problem.