Improvised Weapons

[Doc]

Hey Guys!

I admit it. I love messing around with different kinds of weapons. I consider the RMAX approach to martial arts....Flowfighting....to be an modern american martial art. So I got to thinking....what would be the perfect improvised weapon for a modern american martial art? If you look at the history of asian martial arts, lots of weapons were improvised from daily tools or objects close at hand. The staff was just a pole use to carry water, push a boat thru shallow water, etc. The nunchaku were said to have been flails used to separate grain from chaf. The escrima stick is just that....a stick from a land where rattan is plentiful. So think about it......what do you find on any given weekend in the spring/summer in the good ole US of A, at any typical park or field....? Baseball or Softball! And think about this:

1. What object bears the most resemblance to and would have the most cross-over in training attributes and applications with our beloved clubbell?..... a baseball bat!
2. What object is often near at hand at a typical park or field?....a baseball bat!
3. What object can be readily found in various sizes, materials, colors, etc at any sporting goods store or toy store thru-out the US?.....a baseball bat!
4. What object would arouse the least suspicion or even a second glance when resting in your vehicle or leaning against the wall in your house?.....a baseball bat!
5. What object is as about as "American" as you can get?.....a baseball bat! "Baseball, hot dogs, apple pie, and Chevrolet!"

And as far as historical precedent in the world of Western Martial Arts.....what was a very common battlefield weapon in the middle ages?....a Mace or Club. Which bears a striking (no pun intended) resemblance to.....a baseball bat!

So....."Bat Fencing" anyone? :D :D

[KD Jones]

Right. Prevalent tool, in standardized form, hardy, cheap. Sounds like the way these things have developed historically, no?

You're onto something. Really, it's amazing it isn't already commonly trained...

[shadow]

yeah.... cool, i like it.

take it back to the club.

i'd be really interested to see how cool someone could make bat fencing look? how sophisticated could you make clubbing/batting?

my head struggles to think how you could make it have the kind of elegance a katana would have, or the eccentric value of the traditional chinese weapones, etc?
but thats only cos i'm thinking of this in terms of those other styles.... i can't see it yet, this requires investigating!

:)

[Doc]

yeah.... cool, i like it.

take it back to the club.

i'd be really interested to see how cool someone could make bat fencing look? how sophisticated could you make clubbing/batting?

my head struggles to think how you could make it have the kind of elegance a katana would have, or the eccentric value of the traditional chinese weapones, etc?
but thats only cos i'm thinking of this in terms of those other styles.... i can't see it yet, this requires investigating!

:)


I've starting playing with it a bit. Two-hand hold, pointed directly at opponent on center-line (same as a two-hand sword), fast flowing footwork. Picture the "method 3" parries from Shockability applied with the bat....opponent swings down on you...meet it and minimize the force and impact by stepping as your bat pivots around and on top of his to flow into a strike to his head or upper body. If you've seen the bayonet/carbine fencing series.....picture some of the same tactics but with a shorter weapon and the hands much closer together. Maybe I'll try to shoot some video and figure out how to post it the next time my training partner and I get together.

[Coach Larson]

Hmm . . . I have to say I am intrigued.
Like you I seem to have an affinity for hand weapons.
Please continue to post more about your explorations (hopefully including some video).

I'm not sure about the name "Bat Fencing" though. It sounds like something from Batman & Robin.
How about "Club Fencing" . . . ?

[JasonE]

Cheap, effective, ubiquitous, legal. Difficult to concealed-carry or use in enclosed spaces, but would be fun to explore. :)

...and here I was expecting someone to say "an extensible cell-phone."

[Peter Mitchell]

I'm diggin' the idea of a baseball bat as a weapon, but felt the need to play devil's advocate...

As you stated... improvised weaponry is about using an everyday ordinary tool for defence. However, if I am to walk downtown in an urban setting with a baseball bat slung over my shoulder I am going to get looks if not some pointed questions from the local constabulary... especially if I walk into a restaurant with the aforementioned Louisville for dinner.

Having said that... the very idea of exploring how to use common everyday items as weapons is wicked! :twisted: Would love to hear more about your "bat-fencing"!

[peterng25]

I love the idea too!
But, the way I've been trained, the bat is dangerous within the foot and half between the tip and the grip. If you go in closer or avoid it, it's not a broadsword, no slashing, cutting or stabbing. I guess a straight jab to the face, the solar plexus, etc..., would be effective, but anywhere else on a muscular opponent would not be very effective.
So, the main use would be swinging, and effectiveness would depend on who you're dealing with.
I've read of throwing screwdrivers, and I've thrown screwdrivers, scissors, kitchen knives and make them stick but all in all they'd be a weapon of last resort.
Maybe I'm wrong, and someone could come up with a way to use the bat in such a way as to make easy eluding difficult, I'd really like to see that.

[Chuck Kechter]

I love the idea too!
But, the way I've been trained, the bat is dangerous within the foot and half between the tip and the grip. If you go in closer or avoid it, it's not a broadsword, no slashing, cutting or stabbing. I guess a straight jab to the face, the solar plexus, etc..., would be effective, but anywhere else on a muscular opponent would not be very effective.
So, the main use would be swinging, and effectiveness would depend on who you're dealing with.

Just percussion? :shock: :wink: 8) :D

What about grappling? All kinds of chokes, takedowns, joint manipulations, small movement "shock" generators...

Just off the top... :D

[peterng25]

Yes, definitely!
I know hapkido uses an umbrella, then there's canes, etc...
The creative MAs should try out this idea for size

[JasonE]

When I had knee surgery in 1999, I chose my cane based in part upon potential combat use. :lol: It's aluminum, collapses to about 20", can be immediately separated into two pieces, and has a handle large enough to hook a neck or limb. No doubt it would pass muster if carried in public... might cause potential assailants to underestimate their intended target and win some sympathy votes from witnesses. The only immediate "disadvantage" is that it doesn't weigh as much as a bat, so would probably have to be wielded more skillfully to inflict the same level of damage.

Cost for the cane: $14.99

[Coach Jones]

I have to say that i'm more inclined to Jason's weaponeering approach here. You could absolutely use the bat as a weapon, but unless you play a lot of baseball, it's not really going come into play too often.

If and when it did, now you're looking square in the face of an "assault with a deadly weapon" charge. I would think it would be easaier to explain to a police officer why you carried a knife than why you were wondering the streets with a bat. Imean, maybe a spontaneous softball game might break out, but they are few and far between.

[Connie Brown]

Funny you should mention this. One of the dreamy gleams in my eye is for women and street defense. Of course mastery with CST is the foundation, since conditioning and 3DP2 will get you 99% there.... but just for fun, I was envisioning a really teeny club in the form of a keychain flashlight.

You could swing it in really fast tight circles like nunchuks, blinding and distracting the assailant, moving arms in figure 8s with Intu-Flow circles around the teeny circles - and then stop the keychain on a dime like flourishing drummers do in a scottish pipe band with the key chain flashlight in your palm like a roll of dimes for your Going Ballistic fist work. Or have the end stick out for knife-like work.

I have a rich daydream life.

[Peter Mitchell]

I mean, maybe a spontaneous softball game might break out, but they are few and far between.

Spontaneous games do break out... but not until after midnight when most people are sleeping and the diamonds are mostly closed. That's why they call it a "past-time"! :lol:

[Coach Flanagan]

My favorite improvised weapon is still my car - most of the time when I'm out in the city, I am in in my car so I have an excuse for using it as a weapon :lol:

[Coach Jones]

Spontaneous games do break out... but not until after midnight when most people are sleeping and the diamonds are mostly closed. That's why they call it a "past-time"!

:lol:

[joelsey]

I was envisioning a really teeny club in the form of a keychain flashlight.

You could swing it in really fast tight circles like nunchuks, blinding and distracting the assailant, moving arms in figure 8s with Intu-Flow™ circles around the teeny circles - and then stop the keychain on a dime like flourishing drummers do in a scottish pipe band with the key chain flashlight in your palm like a roll of dimes for your Going Ballistic fist work. Or have the end stick out for knife-like work.

I have a rich daydream life.

Not so, Connie! Just so you know, I've carried a small, 65 lumen flashlight with me for years. At night, it is an awesome non-lethal weapon! In more than one instance, I sined it directly into "someone's" eyes to temporarily blind and disorient them. I can quickly disappear into the night, leaving them wondering just where I went. To me, it's the path of least resistance......

Regards,

[Jarlo Ilano]

I have a small cardboard roll that used to hold the rubber resistance bands we give people in physical therapy. When I reached the end of the band, I looked at it and thought, "this is a nice little stick!" :lol:

It is surprisingly hard and sturdy, and easy to use with the filipino pocket stick (tabak maliit) techniques I've learned.

Rolled up magazines and newspapers are pretty sweet too.

[Coach Hurst]

Rolled up magazines and newspapers are pretty sweet too.

Yeah, I've "heard" that also. Especially on drunk guys who try to attack foreigners on the train. :wink:

[Doc]

I have to say that i'm more inclined to Jason's weaponeering approach here. You could absolutely use the bat as a weapon, but unless you play a lot of baseball, it's not really going come into play too often.

If and when it did, now you're looking square in the face of an "assault with a deadly weapon" charge. I would think it would be easaier to explain to a police officer why you carried a knife than why you were wondering the streets with a bat. Imean, maybe a spontaneous softball game might break out, but they are few and far between.

Hey Coach Jones!

The problem with a cane is that typically you need a reason to be carrying it around! Gone are the days when the "dapper gentleman" carried a cane as an acessory for his outfit. So I don't see it as any more useful as a daily carry weapon than a baseball bat....unless you have a disability that requires it. Most definitely the best daily carry weapon in our culture is a knife of some sort. But we were talking about improvised weapons. ........ :D Consider even the improvised weapons of the past......the Okinawan nunchaku....the farmers didn't necessarily carry their rice flail around on their person when going to town......the ubiquitous staff.....people didn't necessarily have one on hand when going to the theater, town hall meeting, election, etc. Its a matter of what is easily accessible, not necessarily one of what is easily carried around on a daily basis.

[Doc]

I love the idea too!
But, the way I've been trained, the bat is dangerous within the foot and half between the tip and the grip. If you go in closer or avoid it, it's not a broadsword, no slashing, cutting or stabbing. I guess a straight jab to the face, the solar plexus, etc..., would be effective, but anywhere else on a muscular opponent would not be very effective.
So, the main use would be swinging, and effectiveness would depend on who you're dealing with.

Just percussion? :shock: :wink: 8) :D

What about grappling? All kinds of chokes, takedowns, joint manipulations, small movement "shock" generators...

Just off the top... :D


Exactly!! :D Again....if you've seen the carbine fencing videos...lots more there than just percussion or thrusting. Many of the same tactics would apply with the bat. If anyone is familiar with the Dog Brothers approach to Filipino Martial Arts.....they have spent a lot of time developing their ground game, and part of that is applying chokes on the ground with the stick. If anyone is familiar with Filipino Martial Arts in general.....lots of work done with the "punyo" or butt of the stick. Think back to the Fisticuffs series and "weaponing your architecture." Don't be limited by only thinking of the "business" end of the bat as the sole working portion. :D

[Doc]

I've been thinking some more.....maybe "improvised" weapon is the wrong terminology to use for what I'm proposing. If you are a Kendo guy or a western longsword guy and have the opportunity to pick up a baseball bat and apply your method to it "on the fly".....then it would be an "improvised" weapon. From our example of the Okinawan farmer....maybe he was an expert at the staff/Bo and one day had to use his rice flail in a pinch. Maybe he held it like a staff and struck with the ends. It would be an "improvised" weapon. Maybe then he realized that there was potential for using the cord joining the two parts for binding and trapping the opponents weapon, and maybe he quickly realized he could let go of one end and swing the thing around. So he starts experimenting and developing tactics/techniques specifically for use with his simple old rice flail. So then an "improvised" weapon becomes an "adapted" weapon. It becomes "adapted" for specific use as a weapon. A rolled up newspaper has been mentioned as a good example of an "improvised" weapon, but would not make a very good "adapted" weapon. So I think a better term for what I am thinking is using the baseball bat as an "adapted" weapon. Not "improvised" in that one picks it up and swings it like a two-handed sword, but "adapted" in that we work on developing tactics/techniques that specifically take advantage of its attributes as a blunt force club.

On another note....for the typical CST athlete...or for the general population in America for that matter....if we took a poll.....what do you think the average person would have laying around the house that could be used as a weapon if needed?

1. Cane
2. Axe handle
3. Baseball/Softball bat

[stickfighter]

1. Kitchen Knife or Cleaver
2. Hammer
3. Wrench
4. Maglite Flashlight (C or D cell)
5. MiniMaglite (Pocket stick methods)
6. Most gardening tools
7. TLC Knife
8. Heavy Vase or ashtray
9. Spare piece of lumber (2x4 type)

[Chuck Kechter]

There is a Japanese martial art called Hoda Korasu (sp?) that basically uses everyday objects as weapons. Someone once did a count and determeinde that in the average western room there are between 200 and 300 potential weapons.

HK breaks down to -- what part(s) of this object would/could be used against what part of a person's anatomy, and how to get there... Part movement study, part anatomy...

You are only limited by imagination, will, and training partners who want to practice like that. :wink: :lol:

[Doc]

Joe & Chuck....point taken! :D There are lots of things laying around the house that could be improvised as weapons! I guess I was trying to make a different point, but was too vague. IMHO, the typical healthy athletic individual is much more likely to have a baseball or softball bat laying around at home than a cane, axe handle, or other implement that would be suitable for use as an impact weapon with some reach.

The whole idea has been this......similar to how asian martial arts have used objects close at hand as improvised weapons that later became adapted as primary weapons within their system, I wish to nominate the good old baseball/softball bat for consideration as a common object that is typically easily accessible for adaptation as a weapon platform for the modern American martial art of Flowfighting. Any seconds? :D

[Peter Mitchell]

Speaking of using the baseball bat... a bit of a tangent.

There is a scene in Bill & Ted's Excellent Adventure where Ghengis (sp?) Khan discovers an aluminum bat in a sporting goods store, then proceeds to beat the tar out of the display dummies.

Gotta love the eighties!

[Coach Hurst]

Not to take away from Chuck's post but I had never heard of Hoda Korosu.
I checked a few sites and it is translated as


naked kill , improvised weaponry (HERE (http://shadows-of-scar.deviantart.com/journal/7490878/) at the bottom of the page under #3, View from shadows.)

While I understand that people enjoy using words from other languages, including having chinese characters tattooed on their bodies, there are so many mistakes out there. My wife and I laugh at some of the fighters outside of Japan who step into the ring with the wierdest kanji!

HODA does not mean naked. The closest word is HADA which means skin. So in Japanese this would mean 'To kill the skin'. Not sure how it got to 'improvised weaponry' but hey, if it works for them that is all that matters. One way to say 'naked' in Japanese is 'hadaka' by the way. Although I don't think that I want to practice a MA where you are striking, throwing or rolling around naked. The ancient Greeks and Romans did it but I will leave it at that.

Sorry to hijack this thread...

[Coach Flanagan]

Ryan, didnt you get the memo? No clothes allowed at FlowFighting in july :wink:

[Coach Hurst]

Wait a minute, I thought the outfits were a thong and a sombrero?!

(Or was that the coach's uniform? :D )

[Connie Brown]

Or you might enjoy body paint for battle, if you have modesty issues. Yellow and red for Native Americans and blue for the Celts.

[HereBeADragon]

A personal favorite of mine is the rollef up magazine. I'm surprised only ,I think, 2 other people said anything about it. I nice tightly rolled magazine is about as hard as a club and can cause a good deal of damage. Its an effective thrusting and crushing weapon. An interesting old Limalama story claims that Grandmaster Tino could break bricks with a rolled up magazine. Very easy weapons to carry around too.

[Dave O]

dp

[Dave O]

Ryan, didnt you get the memo? No clothes allowed at FlowFighting™ in july :wink:


Wait a minute, I thought the outfits were a thong and a sombrero?!

(Or was that the coach's uniform? :D )


Or you might enjoy body paint for battle, if you have modesty issues. Yellow and red for Native Americans and blue for the Celts.


ROFL...

Sounds like the flowfighting seminar will be taught during Fantasy Feast in Key West.


Getting back on topic...

Keith,

I agree with Chuck and think most things in or around my house could be used as a weapon. However, if I had to pick one thing that was not a gun or a knife, I would pick a broom handle. Between my house and shed, I have probably 6 or 8, brooms, mops and rakes that all have removable handles.

Cheers,

[Dave O]

double post

[Dave O]

I am not an attorney, nor am I a representative of rmax, and this probably does not need to be mentioned.

Please seek out a licensed attorney for real legal advice.

However, since this thread is about improvised weapons...

It is a good idea to be familiar with the laws that exist in the state or country your live. I hope noone would ever need to use an improvised weapon to defend themselves, but if a person does it is a good idea to make sure that he or she does not get arrested for using it. Also, things posted on message boards can be used against you in a court of law.


Moderators: If I am stepping over my bounds by posting this, please remove it.

Regards,

[Scott Sonnon]

Dave,

No, you're not out of bounds. You're merely reinforcing what's stated at the entrance to this forum.

Understand the criminal codes of your commonwealth, and specifically in this case what has been deemed a prohibited offensive weapon, legal carry and concealment and the continuum of reasonable force usage. There are 3 fights: the first against your own biochemistry, the first against the opponent, and the fight in court defending your actions.

[Chuck Kechter]

Not to take away from Chuck's post but I had never heard of Hoda Korosu.
I checked a few sites and it is translated as

naked kill , improvised weaponry (HERE at the bottom of the page under #3, View from shadows.)

While I understand that people enjoy using words from other languages, including having chinese characters tattooed on their bodies, there are so many mistakes out there. My wife and I laugh at some of the fighters outside of Japan who step into the ring with the wierdest kanji!

Dude! I had the spelling thing-y there...
(sp?) :? :wink: :lol:

I should also maybe point out that I've never studied "hadaka korasu" (if that is indeed its real name :roll:) It was something I've talked to one of my past instructors about as well as read about in Trevanain's fantastic book Shibumi http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1400098033/sr=8-1/qid=1147795189/ref=pd_bbs_1/102-7260143-0356968?%5Fencoding=UTF8

[Tim Haws]

Interesting Topic. With all of the varied suggestions, I think that there are some similarities in the methodology of many of the suggested weapons(short-fistloads like the cell phone, car keys, magazine) and (longer-bat, cane, car antennae) I can't help but think that some sort of FMA method of striking, as in the 9 or 12 patterns would provide someone with the basic tenents of striking ability (with flow) that would cover all (and more ) of what was mentioned. so I guess what I'm trying to say is that the weapon itself shouldn't matter, since its an unknown, but the movements learned would suit anything one might grab.

[Doc]

Hey Guys!

I discovered this yesterday!

http://www.ltspecpro.com/92bs.html

Here is what they say about it an article in the latest issue of the Special Projects catalog:

"For the last two decades founder Lynn Thompson has been interested in the baseball bat because of its potential use as a weapon. In his research, the bat intrigued him for many reasons; one being that a hard hit in the head is almost always lethal, making it a very useful item for self-defense. Also, the baseball bat is the most common improvised weapon kept in the home. Under many beds, countless closets and innumerable car trunks, the baseball bat rests, ready to be pressed into service at a moments notice."

I wouldn't be surprised if Mr. Thompson soon has a DVD series covering use of the baseball bat as a self-defense weapon. :-)




Joe & Chuck....point taken! :D There are lots of things laying around the house that could be improvised as weapons! I guess I was trying to make a different point, but was too vague. IMHO, the typical healthy athletic individual is much more likely to have a baseball or softball bat laying around at home than a cane, axe handle, or other implement that would be suitable for use as an impact weapon with some reach.

The whole idea has been this......similar to how asian martial arts have used objects close at hand as improvised weapons that later became adapted as primary weapons within their system, I wish to nominate the good old baseball/softball bat for consideration as a common object that is typically easily accessible for adaptation as a weapon platform for the modern American martial art of Flowfighting. Any seconds? :D

[peterng25]

they sell dvd's on swords, knives too.
I can't help, after viewing biomechanices of the b, going in my mind:'A bunch of techniques. Won't be able to put myself in the action.'
Watching Scott in some fields, whether Yoga, IMA, bare hands, or weapon fighting, leaves you with such a discriminating taste. Oh, well...

[Doc]

they sell dvd's on swords, knives too.
I can't help, after viewing biomechanices of the b, going in my mind:'A bunch of techniques. Won't be able to put myself in the action.'
Watching Scott in some fields, whether Yoga, IMA, bare hands, or weapon fighting, leaves you with such a discriminating taste. Oh, well...

Don't sell them short until you've seen them! :-) Cold Steel/Lynn Thompson has put out some excellent instructional tapes as well. Similar to the RMAX methods, they have an emphasis on the "movement pallete" rather than a "tit for tat" technique approach. In the realm of martial arts videos, my tapes from Cold Steel have a honored spot on the shelve right next to my RMAX videos. :-)

[peterng25]

Really? (raised eyebrows).
Maybe 75% as good? Hmmm...

[HereBeADragon]

you know I have a similar problem with most training videos. A lot of them get downright boring after seeing them through the RMAX point of view. Of course then there are the ones that you get even more out of because of that same new paradym(sp). I also find a similar diffiuclty in teaching. It feels downright wrong to teach Limalama the way I learned it when I now know a better method.

[Glenn Sunshine]

And therein lies the problem. I was an assistant instructor in a kung fu school some years ago (in the era of the earlier incarnation of RMAX), and I kept bringing in new approaches/exercises during the warmups when the senior instructor wasn't there. Some of these were derived from Kurz, some from Pavel, some from Zdorovye.... When the senior instructor found out, he wasn't amused and I went back to the traditional warmup. (For the record, I have since found out that it was inappropriate to use RMAX exercises without prior permission, but by the time I found that out I was no longer teaching.) I'm afraid I'm pretty much spoiled for TCMA anymore thanks to Scott and Co. I still do forms occasionally for the fun of it, but traditional training approaches just don't cut it for me--there are better and more effective ways to get to the goal.

Quick story: I had started using performance breathing in my forms to the extent that was possible--some of the forms use dynamic tension, so you can't performance breathe there. Anyway, I was doing a staff form in a demo the school was doing, and the sifu kept telling me I needed to breathe. He meant inhale, as I was obviously exhaling on the strikes, but he didn't know what to do with the passive inhalations. It looked to him like I would keel over from oxygen deprivation, but at the end, I wasn't the slightest bit winded. I honestly don't think he ever figured out what I did or how I did it.

[Scott Sonnon]

Perhaps a better way to think of this is in this way:

We're spoiled for ineffective traditional teaching methods: teaching which is done because the teacher was taught that way. Some methods are done a certain way because they work ("old school"). Some methods are done because they believe that they work ("classical mess"). How they 'work' can only be determined in a crucible of checks and balances. For martial art, that is simply... fighting. Without checks and balances, the reality of what works can be concealed or even worse overridden by the belief of what works. Faith in yourself is absolutely crucial, and even faith in your training. But faith will never ignite a fire without heat, oxygen and fuel... at least not for we unenlightened mortals like myself. ;)

Once you've tasted RMAX, you can never accept when someone tells you that you must believe that it works without testing that it works. That's the difference between a teacher and a preacher: the former tells you the facts and requests that you test them; the latter tells you that you need to believe in them for them to work, that testing them demonstrates your lack of belief, and if they don't work it's because you don't believe in them strongly or for long enough.

There is only what works.

[Doc]

Once you've tasted RMAX, you can never accept when someone tells you that you must believe that it works without testing that it works. That's the difference between a teacher and a preacher: the former tells you the facts and requests that you test them; the latter tells you that you need to believe in them for them to work, that testing them demonstrates your lack of belief, and if they don't work it's because you don't believe in them strongly or for long enough.

There is only what works.

I agree! :-) I like the Dog Brother's credo: "If you see it taught, you see if fought!" The Cold Steel videos incorporate this to some extent. They are heavy on showing application in a realistic manner, though maybe not as realistic as the Dog Brothers. :-) The martial arts videos series that I have gotten the most out of are the various RMAX videos, the Cold Steel weapons videos, and the Dog Brothers stickfighting videos.