SHOCK-Ability

[Michael Brown]

I am a police officer and MMA fighter. I am constantly seeking performance-based training and recently several of my collegues raved about a Systema course. This past year I attended a course in Systema. One of the topics to be covered was techniques for withstanding blows and other impact.

I was less than impressed by the techniques (and the system to be truthful). It wasn't that they didn't do what the instructor stated as they were impressive. The problem was practicality. Breaking a stack of cement blocks is impressive but not very practical as a training method.

The techniques taught required fore-thought and preparation which are impractical in the heat of combat, most especially suprise attacks, or any other "alive" situation.

I am unfamiliar with the ROSS system. Can someone explain how the concepts in SHOCK-Ability are different than those taught in Systema? I realize that Russia probably has as many sytems of fighting as any other country, but I have noticed a lot of folks here seem to know something of Systema so perhaps someone can outline the differences as it relates to impact absorption.

Thanks in advance.

Mike

[circular]

Coach Sonnon's Shock-Ability course conditions the central nervous system to diminish adverse affects of emotional arousal in combative engagements. The course intends to produce a behavioral change in addressing perceived threats. However the course does require practice as with anything.

Numerous law enforcement personnel and departments worldwide utilize Coach Sonnon's practical training technologies and research into stress physiology and biomechanical efficiency, including this course. It's important to state this since Coach Sonnon's work evolved far beyond expertise in the Russian martial arts. This has led to Coach Sonnon's creation of over 50 unique and innovative resources, as well as venue specific systems such as Force-Responsive Subject-Control Systems, Inc (http://www.subjectcontrol.com).

[Arthur]

The techniques taught required fore-thought and preparation which are impractical in the heat of combat, most especially suprise attacks, or any other "alive" situation.

I'm afraid the material you were exposed to was either incorrectly conveyed or misunderstood. Systema should not even include the idea of technique, let alone require any fore-thought. Systema training is geared toward educating the body and mind to find spontaneous resolution to presented situations.

Unfortunately, seminars don't lend themselves to the trainining required to develop such a skill set. Creating a mindset in which the notion of technique is absent takes time, and is very difficult to teach or learn in a weekend seminar. there are certainly trainining drills that can be done to help people along that road in the confined time of a seminar, but infortunately the really effective teaching methods towards true Systema skill, usually aren't a "big hit" at seminars, where most attendees really just want to be wowed with "techniques".

Sometimes when teaching a Systema seminar myself, I'm asked to cover certain material by the seminar sponsors even though I don't think its the best material for everyone's efficient and thorough learning. In those situations I relish the student that comes up and asks me what I suggest they work on, or what I think is most important. In those situations, I'll usually find a way of spending some extra time with that person, showing them what I think is useful, while attempting to tailor it to what the student feels their needs are.

If you have a chance to attend another Systema seminar, I'd suggest taking your training needs and concerns directly to the instructor. You may get a very different experience.

That being said, it still might not be your cup of tea :wink:


I am unfamiliar with the ROSS system. Can someone explain how the concepts in Shock-Ability™ are different than those taught in Systema?

Personally I find the material on the Shock-ability tapes to be quite similar to material we have in Systema. However, that material might not have been what you were exposed to at the Systema seminar you attended. At Systema seminars I think it is more common these days to run into the "breathwork" type of absorbtion that we do, rather than the "wave motion" work.

The "breathwork absorbtion" is more of a drill than a practical skill. It should if done correctly reduce fear reactivity. That is its main benefit. It is not how we generally go about absorbing blows in a fight.

Feel free to ask me any Systema questions you may have.

Arthur

[Gaucho]

Michael...I have to agree with Arthur. The blow absorption skills that we learn in Systema require no forethought or preparation whatsoever. They work in the flow of the moment and are an extremely useful skill to have during a fight, in my experience.

One of the classes that I regularly teach is a scenario class where we work through realtime adrenalized scenarios of many types. We wear no protective equipment of any kind and hit hard enough to hurt/shock/disrupt without causing permanent damage.

I have found that those of us in my group who have learned blow absorption and deflection through our Systema training perform much better- i.e., are able to stay calm and successfully solve the problem presented on the fly- under the duress of this type of 'real world' work than do other fighters (even very experienced ones) who do not have this skill.

Best Regards,

Mario

[Monkey]

Hi Guys

Was trying to understand this thread a little more.

I am familiar (although not very good at) the "waves theory" in Z-Health, as it relates to the transmission of force. It seemed that this was similar to what is used in Systema in relation to non breath work.

I am going to assume that the breath work refered to in the Systema context is the proportional exhalation depending on the force of the blow. Would this be right? I had not understood this was only used for training purposes.

What sort of waves are best suited for dispersal of force, I would guess you need to use as much as your body as possible?


Also on Prime Your Bioenergy what exercises are geared towards shock absorption?

Monkey

[Scott Sonnon]

It's all Russian Martial Art if it's not about the move, but the movement.

More is not better. Allow enough of a wave to zero out the energy transmitted. When all energies equal zero in fighting, you and your partner are free from harm.

Prime Your Bioenergy is to "prime" (prepare) yourself in solo work for remaining relaxed in partner work (such as in Shock Absorption.)

[Coach Wilson]

Mr. Brown-
I am a police officer as well, and I found Coach Sonnon's material invaluable to my police work. Shockablitity is a great starter to teach officers about how to relax through trauma (physical or emotional). I have worked the FRSC system with Coach Sonnon and think it is the best LEDT system out there. Check out Fisticuffs (http://www.rmax.tv/fisticuffs.html)and look for how to "weaponize your architecture" as well. Understanding this principle has made controlling suspects and justifying it on paper much easier for me. Good luck in your journey. Smile.

Always,

Joseph

[Arthur]

I had not understood this was only used for training purposes.

Hey.. I could be wrong. Though for my own training, I'm going with my personal theories.

Breathwork absobtion presumes the idea that one can meet the blow with the breath than manipulate the breath in appropriate porportion to the attack. I could be wrong... but my sense of things says I have to be set up for such work... expecting the attack, and preparing ahead of time. Acording to what I was taught that is the antithesis to the Systema model for combat... I therefore reason that it is a training drill and not aa practical application. Of course I could be wrong.


What sort of waves are best suited for dispersal of force, I would guess you need to use as much as your body as possible?
I thought Coach Sonnon had a really good explanation, and it is probably "enough". Though this question echos some things discussed in recent classes at my school. SO I'm going to try and add a little more.

The first thing about an absorbtion wave is to allow the attacker to establish the vector. This defines where the wave starts and what its velocity is.

From there one must be fluid and allow the wave to manifest from the energy imparted!

However, and I think this is VERY important... one must remember that the wave is a transitory state... and the ultimate aim is to "recover" perfect form, or in ROSS terms Polizhenye. Wave motion for the sake of wave motion is wrong. Wave motion in "defense" is merely a transitory tactic until form can be recovered. well thats my opinion... and perhaps I mixed ROSS and Systema metaphors too much.

Thoughts?

Arthur

[Scott Sonnon]

...one must remember that the wave is a transitory state... and the ultimate aim is to "recover" perfect form, or in ROSS terms Polizheniye. Wave motion for the sake of wave motion is wrong. wave motion in "defense" is merely a transitory tactic until form can be recovered. Well said!

[Monkey]

Excellant responses.

The balance of energy being zero makes a lot of sense.

I had always thought of releasing the "pressue" of a blow through rotation, particularly around the central axis. This all starts to make a lot of sense.

Thanks for the help.


Monkey

[Gaucho]

Blows whose energy you can diffuse with a slight rotation or wave around your central axis are the easy ones, in my experience. Its those blows where the energy comes squarely thru your center (spine) and often on multiple planes to boot, that are the real challenge. Releasing the blow's energy by absorbing thru your center and then finding the vector to diffuse the blow out of you and recover- all on the fly- that is a job. When you succeed it feels like you really accomplished something, when you don't...well you guys all know how that feels :shock: :( .

Mario

[Larry]

On a different but related note, I think one thing that oftentimes prevents optimal shock absorbtion is the psychological "freeze" that most people experience when they get that first explosion of pain that they didn't expect--which as I see it is the psychological side of fear-reactivity. Until the person mentally unfreezes (thaws out?), the body most often doesn't respond to any efforts to relax it.

One thing I found helpful in overcoming this psychological freeze reaction is to have somebody give me very slow but progressively more intense pain that I can then practice relaxing and dog-breathing through. My chiropractor does a technique that involves digging into and breaking up muscle adhesions which has helped me increase my pain tolerance quite a bit over time. I've also had students squeeze or pinch muscles in various ways to provoke slow intense pain.

The exercise Coach Sonnon introduced where he initially steps, then walks, and then jumps onto the subject's stomach while the subject practices relaxing into it is also extremely helpful here. It doesn't provoke fearful pain so much as fearful pressure, which is extremely related.

As the pain becomes more "familiar," then experiencing it suddenly and unexpectedly no longer triggers the psychological freeze reaction, which I suspect is related to an underlying fear of physical injury or death. When the freeze doesn't occur, then the physical shock absorbtion process is more than half-way completed.

Larry Wall

[Scott Sonnon]

Great comments, Larry. Incremental Progression is the ideal way to immersion. Pain itself isn't difficult. It's all of the fearful bracing which results from experiencing a suddenly "unfamiliar," as Larry describes, intensity... which amplifies the pain.

[lorenzodamarith]

hello,

would anyone know where a copy of shock-ability might be acquired?

thanks

[Scott Sonnon]

Lorenzo, aka the Thread Necromancer....

These specific courses are in the vault indefinitely. Due to contracts with the gov't, I'm not currently teaching combatives publicly. Except for sport (Sambo Saddle), and drill progressions (Hardwork and Softwork) which require training, I'm no longer at this time making my martial art available online. The discovery of the enemy training with and to develop counter-measures against my methods, coupled with my gov't contracts domestically and with our allies abroad, has led me to restrict online access. For the men and women I train, this is a very real, very lethal, daily war against the horde at the gates.

[lorenzodamarith]

hello,

coach sonnon, your quick reply is appreciated.

thanks