re: elbow lock / shoulder rotation / wrist position

[KD Jones]

I started working on my ability to keep my "elbow pits" up during forward extension of the arm as a preliminary to correct handstand form, and drawing from suggestions by Coach Sonnon in Brian Bentz' "Handstands 101" log - and benefits attested by him - then started working on pointing the fingers up with arm extended, elbow locked and elbow pit up, and then raising the arm from forward to straight up while maintaining this alignment of shoulder/elbow/wrist.

What I've noticed is that keeping the fingers upward knocks about 5 degrees off the outward rotation of the elbow. I don't think this is a flexibility issue - even if I relax the arm and attempt to gently "stretch" the elbow/wrist alignment such that they both point directly up (or any direction) there is an offset of about 5 degrees between the two, any attempt to go farther (to where the elbow pit and the fingers are both pointed in exactly the same direction) seems to be limited by bone and possibly compressed soft tissue. I don't think there's any more range to be had.

So, it appears that in order to point the elbow pit straight up, and then elevate the arm until the elbow pit points straight back, the fingers will need to point slightly off to the side. Otherwise, the structural limits force the shoulder rotation to be less than complete (with "complete" rotation resulting in the elbow pit being straight up and then straight back).

SO, THE QUESTION IS THIS:
Is NOT being able to align the fingers and the elbow pit in the same direction a limitation for other techniques or CST principles? Or is the slight outward splaying of the wrist/fingers a non-issue?

(I'm really sorry about the verbosity here... words don't suffice as pictures might.)

[Matthew Barnes]

KD,

I have been noticing the same thing, though on a more intuitive level(I realised it as I read your post). I think that I have a little more range to gain as my separation is more on the order of 10 degrees.

[Coach Jones]

SO, THE QUESTION IS THIS:
Is NOT being able to align the fingers and the elbow pit in the same direction a limitation for other techniques or CST principles? Or is the slight outward splaying of the wrist/fingers a non-issue?

Take this with a grain of salt because i'm not entirely sure I understand what you're decribing here. If i'm understanding you correctly, I would say that the limitation in range of motion is a limitation...period. Not just in terms if CST.

Something to work on.

[Coach Bentz]

KD,

I'm sorry, I could've made this more clear in our discussion.

You might not've noticed this the other day, but in flag position with palm facing forward, my fingers are not pointing straight up either. I bet it'll stand right out when you see me again, now that you've tried it a bunch of times. :)

Obviously I still have elbow stuff going on so it may get better over time. But what I reckon Coach Sonnon was trying to do was to discover in his evaluation (and to help me become aware, and in our discussion, ) from those exercises how much/little rotation of the humerus I had, to get the elbow pit up.

I only thought I had it before, but I was either substituting other joints, or oblivious. But in that particular position, and in downward dog with the chain closed, it became pretty clear that I didn't, and the only way I could get there was to learn how to rotate my humerus. Which was a struggle at first.

What's important to me right now is that when I'm in flag position with fist closed (as with a clubbell), that elbow pit can now go straight up, and my elbow can really lock out, and my shoulders feel like they pack better. Now i'm working on getting it to do that under load, with baby steps. But before recovering that ROM, I was constantly experiencing pain in my shoulder after clubbell practice.

In your case, from what we saw with your arm screw, it looked to me like you had a similar problem with that same ROM, so that's why I went down the same road that Coach Sonnon did with me. But I was looking to emphasize the action in the shoulder, not so much the forearm rotation. Sorry dude!

Brian


Brian

[KD Jones]

The lack of clarity was most likely me. Remember you're dealing with Mr. Insanely-Literal-In-Limited-Circumstances. (The rest of the time being Mr. Impossibly-Abstract-Metaphor.)

Always getting sidetracked on the smallest element...