JKD hyperbole

[Scott Sonnon]

So, what can for the sake of convenience say is one of the most common aphorisms of the old evolutionary paradigm of Bruce Lee's "JKD"? "Absorb what is useful and discard the rest."

I see two problems running rampant throughout the current martial art era that has out of necessity given birth to FlowFighting as one of the solutions.

1. Absorb what is useful and absorb what you prefer are two entirely different animals. The former requires systematic progression of drills - which is what it means to 'absorb' rather than to don: to wear on your head like a scarf. The latter subjugates you to the 'flavor of the week' (read here 'technique of the week') flippancy, lacking the basic core doctrine necessary in any and all physical disciplines.

2. Discard the rest and suspend the rest are two entire different animals. It's the difference between putting something in the junk folder versus purging the folder permanently of its contents. I cannot tell you how many times athletes have returned to something that they previously were not prepared to understand only for it to become their most important and powerful tool. But you can only pressurize ("absorb") any one skill family at a time, so you need to 'suspend' everything else until you can address it with adequate testing, checking and balancing in the overarching pedagogical / strategic system.

Purging the folder enslaves you to the ongoing process of reading the first chapter of 20 books, rather than ever progressing through any one book (and thus lacking the ability to learn plot development, character development, et cetera...)

[Trebor]

Interesting Insight...

It would seem that both #1. and #2. stem from a larger issue. "We don't know what we don't know".

If I've had a year or two of (name the MA System here) and then go out into the world to experiment and "absorb" different martial arts principles and techniques - what is my basis for even knowing what to absorb or not absorb?

In my neophyte state there are things that shiny and sparkle that I may grasp (problem #1.), all the while overlooking some of the most useful principles (problem #2.).

Personally, I can't tell you the number of times that I've thought a response to a situation was pretty darn smart/creative/effective only to have an instructor say, "well, you could do that, but then X, Y and Z undesirable result will occur - perhaps you should respond this way..." Or as a fencing instructor once said..."that only works because you are fencing another student that doesn't know what he's doing - what's going to happen to you against an experienced fencer is this..." (example of False Positive Feedback).

Ironically, the answer isn't necessarily to stay in the same MA system for 10 years either. Systems have their own blind spots. Nor is the answer huge quantities of "real" sparing or other experience (While experience is invaluable, none of us can experience all there is to experience and it's a long road not taking advantage of others experience).

So, we don't know what we don't know. From a place of not knowing we seek to expand our knowledge, but don't always possess the judgement yet to know what is valuable and what is shiny glass. Staying where we are at doesn't solve the problem and venturing into the world for lots and lots of experiences also has its downsides.

What to do?

I think old King Solomon got it right 2500 years ago...

"For by wise guidance you will wage war, and in
abundance of counselors there is victory."

I think this is what makes Coach Sonnon's advice to "get a team" around your health critical. And that advice applies to your business, marketing, marriage, relationships, etc.

[peterng25]

Exactly times 10 to the power 5!
About 9 months ago, I got Fisticuffs. Watched them, trying my bes to grok. I tried to move like coach S does on tape, but in my mind I was trying to breakdance/hear a tune in my head while keeping my breath in tune with the movements. Of course, after 2 days I wisely shelved the tapes.
Last week, after almost a year of WW, I broke them out, and suddenly I could see this change: the shoulder moves, the chest breathing the lungs with the arms motions, which have become more coordinated with the WW practice.
Suddenly, it makes sense! I grok it! Thus, as with all things one begins to see, one falls in love with it. I can now incorporate the arms and footwork (locomotion work) from Fisticuffs, and floor works from GT.
I congratulate myself for not giving up, and having the patience to practice my coordination and breathing instead.

[Coach Hurst]

1. Absorb what is useful and absorb what you prefer are two entirely different animals. The former requires systematic progression of drills - which is what it means to 'absorb' rather than to don: to wear on your head like a scarf. The latter subjugates you to the 'flavor of the week' (read here 'technique of the week') flippancy, lacking the basic core doctrine necessary in any and all physical disciplines.

So what you are stating is a 'Cleaning of the Slate' for your MA practice. Going back to the 'core' of one's system (physical discipline) and rather than focus on techniques focus on the movements that constitute the skill set. Only when you are able to grasp that will you be able to absorb what is useful and actively 'flow' with it when the situation arises.


2. Discard the rest and suspend the rest are two entire different animals. It's the difference between putting something in the junk folder versus purging the folder permanently of its contents. I cannot tell you how many times athletes have returned to something that they previously were not prepared to understand only for it to become their most important and powerful tool. But you can only pressurize ("absorb") any one skill family at a time, so you need to 'suspend' everything else until you can address it with adequate testing, checking and balancing in the overarching pedagogical / strategic system.


Again, Cleaning of the Slate? Taking a skill family and looking at it for movement sake rather than as just a technique by breaking down the chain in order to focus on key compoments of the particular skill set.

For example rather than looking at a particular throw or take-down look at the smaller parts (movements) that make one able to access the throw and focus on them. So rather than just trying to focus on taking a person down with one particular technique a person would be able to move/flow into or out of similar movements that would give access to a skill. The technique presents itself rather than one searching for a technique.

Am I missing the point of your two examples?

[Peter Mitchell]

"Absorb what is useful and discard the rest."

...you can only pressurize ("absorb") any one skill family at a time, so you need to 'suspend' everything else until you can address it with adequate testing, checking and balancing in the overarching pedagogical / strategic system.

Coach,

Could you clarify, please? Is a skill family defined as an aspect of your fighting game (eg: Shock-Ability, or casting, or endurance, or power) or are you breaking it down like this... upper body striking, lower body striking, throwing, grappling, etc.?

Thanks...

[Scott Sonnon]

Ryan,

Beautiful.

[Scott Sonnon]

Peter,

By skill family, I refer to the skills which arise from drilling a particular subsystem, for instance the 3/4 nelson subsystem of the clinch, or the leg scissors subsystem of the 1/2 leg guard.

[Coach Hurst]

...for instance the 3/4 nelson subsystem of the clinch, or the leg scissors subsystem of the 1/2 leg guard.

Wow. Those sound familiar. :) :cool:

[KD Jones]

Going back to the 'core' of one's system (physical discipline) and rather than focus on techniques focus on the movements that constitute the skill set. Only when you are able to grasp that will you be able to absorb what is useful and actively 'flow' with it when the situation arises.

If I had read this 6 months ago, I would probably have thought "oh.. like doing the sil nim tau..." (or, katas, or punches into nowhere...)

Now, I know that's not what is meant. But at the same time, I don't understand how that isn't what it means.

Could you give an example of this process, with names tacked to the bits (subsystem, family, technique, mechanic) without cutting into the belly of FlowFighting?

[Coach Hurst]

katas, or punches into nowhere...

This is what I meant when I said that you should be focusing on the core movements. Most people focus on the punch[/I][/B] when they should be focusing on what allows them access to the punch.

Just like the wrestler, judoka, samboist who tries to throw the person instead of using his/her movements to have the other person 'throw himself'. In order to throw someone you must know the small nuances that lead you to the throw. Those are the movements that get you 'there'.

In the throwing arts there are many different entries for throws. Yet usually one entry will be the start up movement for multiple throws. By groking that setup movement you are allowing yourself choices after completion of the entry for when things deviate from the norm. That way you are adapting to the situation rather than trying to only focus on completing one technique.

[Chuck Kechter]

Just like the wrestler, judoka, samboist who tries to throw the person instead of using his/her movements to have the other person 'throw himself'. In order to throw someone you must know the small nuances that lead you to the throw. Those are the movements that get you 'there'.

In the throwing arts there are many different entries for throws. Yet usually one entry will be the start up movement for multiple throws. By groking that setup movement you are allowing yourself choices after completion of the entry for when things deviate from the norm. That way you are adapting to the situation rather than trying to only focus on completing one technique.

Great stuff Ryan!

[Doc]

Coach Sonnon wrote:
So, what can for the sake of convenience say is one of the most common aphorisms of the old evolutionary paradigm of Bruce Lee's "JKD"? "Absorb what is useful and discard the rest."

----I thought it was something like "Absorb what is useful, reject what is useless, add was is specifically your own."

I see two problems running rampant throughout the current martial art era that has out of necessity given birth to FlowFighting™ as one of the solutions.

---Good points and I agree! But in all fairness to Bruce Lee, I don't think what has happened amongst JKD guys today is what he intended.

Trebor wrote:
If I've had a year or two of (name the MA System here) and then go out into the world to experiment and "absorb" different martial arts principles and techniques - what is my basis for even knowing what to absorb or not absorb?

---That is why originally there was a distinction made between JKD and Jun Fan Gung Fu. The student started out learning Jun Fan Gung Fu to develop a foundation or a basis for future exploration. Then the concepts from JKD was the framework for that exploration. I believe what Coach Sonnon has described is an accurate assessment of that state of things in many circles. I'm just not sure that is what Bruce Lee intended. Then again... :-)

Keith

[Scott Sonnon]

Keith,

I wasn't speaking to Bruce Lee, but rather his organization which resides after his passing. That's a major difference. No one can speak for what Bruce Lee actually intended, though so many attempt to. The difference between where he was with his words:

"Absorb what is useful, reject what is useless, add was is specifically your own."

And how those words have specifically verbatim been interpreted by current 'representatives' (I will not point the fingers, for everyone can do a search for themselves so we don't have the JKD vs JKD Concepts nonsense invade our forum):

"Absorb what is useful and discard the rest."

is my point.

Maybe Bruce Lee was just as much a squirrelly 20-something as his current 'representatives' (those who chose to interpret his words rather than speak their own truth). Maybe he was a rational genius surrounded by people who looked to him rather than used his guidance to look to themselves. Maybe both. Who knows what different he would be saying now compared to when he was in his early interupted youth. We'll never know.

But we can see the current stagnation. We can know how agitating that stagnant pond causes a lot of muck to rise to the surface and a lot of small fish being pissed off. And we can see how refreshed everyone becomes with the water is redirected into river flow once again.

I wonder where it will them if they only continue to evolve! :)

[David Nicol]

This is very interesting, if I could ask Ryan a question. When you say -


This is what I meant when I said that you should be focusing on the core movements. Most people focus on the punch[/I][/B] when they should be focusing on what allows them access to the punch.

Do you mean that in training in say my shotokan class we should focus more on punching without punching, i.e. study and practice the actual bodydynamics of say a yakuzuki (reverse punch), rather than the punch itself. But not limit ourselves to simply a reverse punch, so allowing flow to a jab, backhand etc.?? If so how does one train this?

I was trying to make a point to class last week that it is not so important (at an advanced level of kumite) getting caught up in technique but rather one should focus on integrating full body (originating from the core) movement with proper awareness (an 'attending' profile of external focus and broad concentration) and letting the techniques happen. Is this along the lines of what you are talking about?

I apologise for my slowness

Warmly,
Dave

[Scott Sonnon]

David,

That's precisely what 'technique' meant before it became 'a technique' - a new modern usage of the word. Technique was used to refer to good mechanics. Now, in conventional martial art, it has degenerated after years of rote education into (context) specific mechanics.

Good mechanics are good mechanics... which is what I refer to when I say, "good movement is good movement." Poor mechanics is not good movement (no matter how 'graceful'), and neither are forced application of specific mechanics in situations which don't merit them.

[Coach Tran]

That's precisely what 'technique' meant before it became 'a technique' - a new modern usage of the word. Technique was used to refer to good mechanics. Now, in conventional martial art, it has degenerated after years of rote education into (context) specific mechanics.

Good mechanics are good mechanics... which is what I refer to when I say, "good movement is good movement." Poor mechanics are not good movement (no matter how 'graceful'), and neither are forced application of specific mechanics in situations which don't merit them.

Pearls... Pearls...

Thanks.

[David Nicol]

Ahh thanks for clearing that up coach.

This corrolates to the tendancy I have noticed in those who have newly got their black belt and are attempting new "techniques" - to become obsessed with the final position and not pay enough attention to body dynamics and good movement. The result is inefficient, clumsy movement which appears slow and has little power transfer. The bigger 40 something guys at the club with years of conventional strength training and bad connective tissue health find it very difficult to understand this however. Many of them simply aren't ready to suspend their belief systems and listen - however when they do, hopefully I'll be able to help them and rmax will have a few more sceptics on board.

Dave

[Scott Sonnon]

That'll take time, David. At your age people are likely to dismiss your efficiency because you're "young." Older athletes have convinced themselves that crippling pain, injury and inefficiency are the only guarantees from continued practice.

However, the longer you continue your evolution, the more people will change their tune just by watching your continued development.

[KD Jones]

... I apologise for my slowness ...

David, I'm slower than you, and I can prove it.

I'm going to throw this out there once again, just in case...

Could someone give an example of this process, with names tacked to the bits (subsystem, family, technique, mechanic) without cutting into the belly of FlowFighting? I find myself just a little swimming in terminology, without specific hooks to hang the terms on.

[Trebor]

Wasn't it ole John Boyd that warned against the inevitable entropy that would occur in any closed system?

[TNichols]

So, what can for the sake of convenience say is one of the most common aphorisms of the old evolutionary paradigm of Bruce Lee's "JKD"? "Absorb what is useful and discard the rest."



A curmudgeonly old silat player of my acquaintance once characterized that adage as one of the stupider things Bruce Lee ever said: "He wasn't old enough to know what's useful..."

He went on to tell the illustrative story of a "useless" set of drills his teacher taught him, and insisted that he practice. Turns out, in his age, that practice has cultivated some skills very useful to an older man.

Trusting the wrong authority can doom you to operating at a lower level. People often don't realize that an inability to trust the right authority at the right time can cause the same problem.

[Scott Sonnon]

Tim,

Yes, as I continue to grow younger but with more years, I am finding that to be true as well. Age doesn't guarantee wisdom, but youth doesn't guarantee clarity.

[TNichols]

Age doesn't guarantee wisdom, but youth doesn't guarantee clarity.

Amen and well said.

[David Nicol]

Coach, totally correct. I've seen this over and over again in my training since I started coaching around the age of 13 or 14 after getting my first black belt. No-one listens to the slim little pretty boy with the highlights in his hair ;) lol Teaching in glasgow, (which can be a rough place and murder capital of western europe) I've found this more than anything. The typical skinhead short thick built guys wouldn't listen to a word I said until we actually sparred and I beat them easily and quickly, then they were all ears.

Sometimes the only way to get people to listen is to grab people so they can't dismiss the results anymore. As the head coaches always say lead from the front. This is the reason (as i spoke to coach sonnon about earlier today) that I'm holding off launching CST Scotland for a couple of months. When I'm at 110% (currently at about 80) and no-one can argue with the results its time to release the message!

[KD Jones]

You know, David, it's folks like you that cause me to keep the Scottish bit of my blood in the forefront of my internal engine - it serves me and those around me well whenever I begin to feel like giving up on something. Out and holding up against romper stomper types is certainly worth a mound of respect.

Oh... and I'm still wondering when there will be an mp3 of some Scots fiddle work posted around here... not to press...

[Coach Tran]

Sometimes the only way to get people to listen is to grab people so they can't dismiss the results anymore. As the head coaches always say lead from the front. This is the reason (as i spoke to coach sonnon about earlier today) that I'm holding off launching CST Scotland for a couple of months. When I'm at 110% (currently at about 80) and no-one can argue with the results its time to release the message!

This statement made me so proud to have you part of the CST Cadre, bro. I have complete faith that you will be da dog's ballocks in Scotland!!! My small gift that I sent to you was my investment in you as a friend, a CST athlete, and the CST representative of Scotland. Best of luck to you brother. Now get back to work or no german clubs for you! ;)

Your friend,

Bao

[David Nicol]

KD, Bao, thank you both for your comments - you both make me smile :) When I see the wealth of talent in the Cadre it makes me so proud to be part of the team. It can be unnerving at times but in a good way as I feel I have to constantly press, constantly develop and challenge myself. But when that stops happening i think its time to take a good look at yourself.

Thinking about what I said before I've just realised an obvious mistake - is anyone ever really 100%? No of course not, as Coach Sonnon says life is a series of THP's and pyramids. We can approximate and try and get close to that 100% but each time we get close it changes and moves not further away but in a different direction. Hopefully from the top of the pyramid we have a moment of epiphany and see where we need to further develop, to explore, to evolve.

An example - you train yourself daily and make huge leaps and personal gains - you think you are at 'the top of your game - 100%'. Then you train with your mentor, an innovator, a coach, your friend (CST coach cadre) and you realise just how little you really know and how much you need to develop to bring forward your personal practice. The 'bad' athlete sees these coaches who are so much better than him (or even his competitors, peers and rivals for I view everyone that I learn from as a coach) and is disheartened. The 'good' (rmax) athlete sees this not as an obstacle but a challenge - they are simply at a place you need to be at, and once you learn from them you too will reach their level and inspire others.

I made this mistake through much of my life - being disheartened and put off by my main rival, its only recently that I've realy had clarity and taken his excellence as a positive and used it to push me on. Its such a slight change in attitude but something that is so effective.

I know this has been said before but its just my little take on things.

Warmly,
Dave

P.S. KD - the server wont let me attach mp3s but if u go to www.myspace.com/celticrougeband you can here some of the rough copies of a couple of the tracks from our CD (ummastered) - the site has jst gone up so bear with us :)

[David Nicol]

P.P.S. Germans clubs also serve as a motivator ;)

[Doc]

Yep! Your points are right on the money Coach. I've often wondered what Bruce Lee would be doing now if he was still around. I used to think he would have reverted back to something like Wing Chun as he aged and his athleticism declined. Now I'm more apt to think he would have arrived at something similar to the RMAX material. But then its all just useless speculation at this point. :-)



Keith,

I wasn't speaking to Bruce Lee, but rather his organization which resides after his passing. That's a major difference. No one can speak for what Bruce Lee actually intended, though so many attempt to. The difference between where he was with his words:

"Absorb what is useful, reject what is useless, add was is specifically your own."

And how those words have specifically verbatim been interpreted by current 'representatives' (I will not point the fingers, for everyone can do a search for themselves so we don't have the JKD vs JKD Concepts nonsense invade our forum):

"Absorb what is useful and discard the rest."

is my point.

Maybe Bruce Lee was just as much a squirrelly 20-something as his current 'representatives' (those who chose to interpret his words rather than speak their own truth). Maybe he was a rational genius surrounded by people who looked to him rather than used his guidance to look to themselves. Maybe both. Who knows what different he would be saying now compared to when he was in his early interupted youth. We'll never know.

But we can see the current stagnation. We can know how agitating that stagnant pond causes a lot of muck to rise to the surface and a lot of small fish being pissed off. And we can see how refreshed everyone becomes with the water is redirected into river flow once again.

I wonder where it will them if they only continue to evolve! :)

[Coach Tran]

P.P.S. Germans clubs also serve as a motivator ;)

David,

You have to come to NYC one of these days.... We can both train and reward ourselves to the German clubs in my town. ;) Maybe one day I will vist your city and then you can show me the beauty of your culture? Until we meet again, train intelligently , take good care of yourself, and pay it foward...

[SAB]

Not sure what Bruce Lee would have been doing but at 30 years old he used to answer the question 'what happens when you're 60?'

with the answer: "When I'm 60 man, no other 60 year old will be able to beat me up!"

:)
Guy had a sense of humor.