Joint supplement after surgery

[Robert V]

I had sugery on both of my elbows this past spring. Is there anything(supplement) that would assist my recovery?

Also, what you you think of Prolotherapy?

Thanks,

Robert

[Brett Jacques]

Consider managing the inflammation, which is usually chronic without overt signs with herbal anti-inflammatories such as ginger.

Provide base nutritional support for connective tissue repair such Vitamin C, zinc, proline, Calcium, Magnesium, silica etc.

Glucosamine/chondroitin/MSM formula helps.

Prolotherapy extended my rugby days, Sambo ruined my ankles and prolo restored connective tissue integrity.

[Vbrown]

Surgery for what tissue or structure in the elbow?

I've seen conflicting things on prolotherapy. It does seem to help a number of folks, but I don't feel comfortable saying it fixes everyone .

First thing is to get a good evaluation of your own structure. First from yourself. Determine what it is that is truly "wrong" and if it has improved with the rehab you are doing. It might not be where you want it yet, but I personally would wait on prolo. until I had totally stalled out in recovery. It's alot of money and for some people it can be quite painful.

Vince

[James Boelter]

Prolotherapy did not work for me, but I remain convinced that it might be a good choice and work well for some people. During the months I tried it, I was sleeping about 5 hours a night and drinking about a gallon of Diet Coke every day, which probably sabotaged the therapy due to sheer dehydration and lack of sleep.

Some dedicated time spent in a Bikram Yoga class helped clear up an ongoing problem with knee tendinitis/inflammation and a back spasm in the S/I joints caused by a car accident.

I think the recommendation for the use of ginger is dead on; used properly, ginger is a very potent and effective anti-inflammatory and pain reliever along with its 'tonic' properties. Ginger baths, poultices and fomentations are all easily made and applied and will speed up the recovery process.

I wish you good luck, and a speedy recovery!

[Arthur]

New Genesis of a new forum, in a place where people actually bother to think. Hmm...

I was about to post my thoughts on the original question... then I saw interesting opinions and experience on both sides of the fence... one side in contradiction to my own experience, but yet from an interesting source.

This lead to thought. Perhaps a therapist only discussion area would be of value here. I know I have qustions and investigative ideas in my head I'd like to ask some in this forum that I think might be better served in a private area.

Arthur
Sotai Shihan, TCM Herbalist, etc.

[Coach Ilano]

Injection of a "scarring" proliferant (prolotherapy) is indicated in dysfunctions where the main problem is ligamentous instability. The proliferant is injected into/around the offending ligament and the scarring restores the patency of the ligamentous structure.

Ligamentous laxity as such does not provide the normal stability to a joint that a normal ligament would. This takes the joint out of its "neutral zone" (See M. Panjabi for reference texts). Which can be described as the normal "play" within the structure. If there is too much play in the joint, it is much like a lax rope and pulley system, the joint can "jump track" or "shift" too much, thus causing pain from the irritation and weakness from the improper length-tension relationships.

Such as seems to be the case with Brett's conditions which may have been lax (overstretched) and possibly torn ligaments.

The most successful results are seen in those who are properly diagnosed with the primary dysfunction of ligamentous instabilty. I would advise that a thorough diagnosis be determined before considering the procedure.

What type of surgery did you have? What was it supposed to address? Did it do the job? Are you recovering at a pace that is reasonable?

(Sorry I cannot add about supplementation, I can only comment on prolotherapy which I know a little about, and not alternative medicinals of which I know even less!)

Jarlo

[Robert V]

Thanks, guys!

I had bone spurs removed on both elbows.

How should I use the ginger?

[Brett Jacques]

Most negative literature on prolo comes from orthopedic surgeons with no direct experience with prolo.

As mentioned, a proper work-up is needed including a more objective diagnostic tool such as high-res ultrasound or MRI. It's a treatment for ligaments only.

It is a very technique dependent therapy. The majority of prolo therapists are still learning their craft. I was lucky in that my wife is a very skilled at prolo having studied with all the "masters" of prolo. I have used prolo in my practice on a very limited basis with very superficial injuries with moderate success.

[Robert V]

Brett,

Could you ask your wife about my situation? Recovering from the bone spurs on my elbows. Also, I had positive results with prolo on my knee.

Thanks.

[Brett Jacques]

Was there ligament damage from the spurs?

In my shoulder, the OA is bad so that I have some ligamentous fraying but most orthopods don't think spur removal is appropriate.

[JasonE]

On the original topic, I followed a recommended course of supplementation when I had arthroscopic surgery on my right knee and amazed my surgeon by healing about 3x faster than expected.

The course of supplementation was recommended by my chiropractor, who is extremely knowledgeable about nutritional healing. For your consideration, I will include his reasons for each item recommended.

1. Vitamin A - 10,000 I.U. daily - to provide raw material for generating new tissue and speed the healing process.

2. Vitamin E - 400 to 800 I.U. daily - to boost the regeneration process; also used Vitamin E oil on the incisions to prevent drying and scarification.

3. Vitamin C with Bioflavonoids (2:1 ratio) - 2000/1000 to 4000/2000 mg daily - Vitamin C to boost immune system and Bioflavonoids to improve efficient uptake of the Vitamin C.

4. Vitamin B complex - 1000 to 2000 mg daily - to boost healing processes and other stuff I can't recall just now.

5. Omega Oils - 6000 mg daily - to provide raw material for tissue regeneration and speed healing.

6. Calcium and Magnesium (2:1 ratio) - 1000/500 mg daily - to provide raw material for cartilage regeneration and speed healing.

7. Multi-mineral - to make up for low mineral content from lousy diet so other supplements would provide supplemental material for healing.

8. Bromelain - 1200 to 2400 mg daily - to reduce swelling without retarding cartilage regeneration (as ibuprofen apparently does) so healing can progress more quickly.

I started this course of supplementation about 2 weeks before surgery so my "body would be primed with what it needed to heal", and I followed it for about a month afterwards, then tapered everything down considerably and dropped the Bromelain entirely. Eventually I dropped almost everything as my diet and activity levels improved.

I don't know what value this has for someone more than a month or two after their surgery, but it worked for me at the time *of* the surgery.

[Brett Jacques]

Robert where are you located? My wife may have a referral for you. She said that prolo on the elbow is done from the anterior side and should only be done by highly experienced therapists because there is a strong chance to hitting a nerve.

[Robert V]

Brett,

There wasn't any ligament damage. I don't think.

Also, my prolotherapy doctor is David Nebbeling in Lansing, MI.

My chiropractor told me to begin taking Cod Liver and Flaxseed oil. What do you know about that?

Thanks.

Robert

[Brett Jacques]

Robert,
Prolo would not be appropriate at this time.

Why is your DC having you take Cod Liver Oil and Flax Oil?

I'm not a big fan of Flax oil, tends to go rancid really quickly despite manufacturer's packaging. The other issue is humans don't produce a lot of an enzyme called elongase which helps convert the fatty acids in Flax to more beneficial ones like eicosapentaenoic acid (EPA) and docosahexenoic acid (DHA), so the majority of omega 3's in Flax aren't doing a great deal.

A lot of cod liver oil on the market is quite rancid and toxic, what brand are you taking?

[Robert V]

My Chiro is concerned about the stiffness in my spine due to: bone spur in my thoracic and cervical region, arthritis in my cervical, thoracic and lumbat spine, and an extra lumbar vertebre.

She feels I am not getting enough oil in my diet and thinks this would help.

So no prolo?

No oils?

It's TwinLab cod liver.

[Charlie McCarthy]

Just figured I might pop my head in on the cod liver oil. I've read a couple of naturopathic doctors, and nutritionists recommend J. R. Carlson Labs cod liver oil. My understanding is that alot of the cod liver oil is taken from the fish, then shipped to the U.S. to be bottled which would cause it to go rancid in one way or another. From what I gather, Carlson Labs bottles the oil after extraction and then ships it to the U.S. I've read great things about cod liver oil and I myself take it everyday. Ok, I'm done

Charlie McCarthy