back, disk L5 and wrestling

[juszczec]

Hi folks

I was practicing a sacrifice throw with a heavy bag last week. I held the bag in front of me, put my foot into the middle of it, lay back and threw it over my head.

So what?

So one time I blew it. Instead of laying back I sat straight down. The next day I had pain in a spot about 4 inches above and to the left of the tip of my tailbone.

I wasn't bad, but it was never there before. Over the next few days it got a little worse (but never more than a 2 on a scale of 1-10).

I called my physical therapist. She diagnosed a strained/sprained ligament at the site of the pain. The increased tension in the muscles surrounding the ligament was pulling my tailbone and disk L5 out of alignment.

After a half hour to 45 minutes of treatment, she pronounced me ready to go back into action after a day of rest.

Its the disk L5 part that scared the daylights out of me. The way my body responded to the injury started to pull the disk out of place. She manipulated it back into place and relieved the tension so the disk and tailbone will stay put.

Is this something I'll need to be careful of whenever I wrestle? Has anyone had a similar experience?

Mark

[JasonE]

I've had a lot of strained muscles and tendons over the years, and when they start pulling, they can do all kinds of stuff to your alignment. The key is building up those muscles and working to increase the range of motion in that area.

Your symptoms sound like they were more the result of impact damage than anything else, with the soft tissues knotting up in reaction. Once you work it out and get them relaxed, they should be fine under normal use, or I would have been forced to stop grappling 5 years ago.

BTW, it sounds like you were sitting back before you got all the way down on that throw. If it was similar to judo's Tomoe-Nage aka "Circle Throw", then you should sit in and down as close to your own heel as you can before rolling back with the throwing action. If you sit back before you get all the way down you are more likely to have the impact on your lower back.

[juszczec]

The key is building up those muscles and working to increase the range of motion in that area.


Any suggestions for the back? The lower back in particular?



Your symptoms sound like they were more the result of impact damage than anything else, with the soft tissues knotting up in reaction. Once you work it out and get them relaxed, they should be fine under normal use,


That's pretty much word for word what my PT said.



or I would have been forced to stop grappling 5 years ago.


What have you torn up? What kind of exercise do you do to rehab/prevent it?



BTW, it sounds like you were sitting back before you got all the way down on that throw. If it was similar to judo's Tomoe-Nage aka "Circle Throw", then you should sit in and down as close to your own heel as you can before rolling back with the throwing action. If you sit back before you get all the way down you are more likely to have the impact on your lower back.

Looking back, I was an accident waiting to happen.

Yes, it was the Circle Throw-I was too lazy to look up the Japanese term. The bag I was using was too short to stand on its own. I had to hold it up off the ground, about 2-3 feet. It forced me to bend my elbows, which prevented me from getting my foot in the right spot. I was kind of throwing myself back just a touch in an attempt to get the right position. At one point my supporting foot slipped and I came straight down.

That was the start of my trouble.

Thanks for the information.

Mark

[JasonE]

JasonE wrote: The key is building up those muscles and working to increase the range of motion in that area.

Any suggestions for the back? The lower back in particular?

Well, there are better-qualified men to answer that on these boards, but I'd recommend a solid course of dynamic stretching and strength-developing movement drills. I used to do a ton of back arches, shrimping, and other common calisthenics that would translate directly into grappling movements.


What have you torn up? What kind of exercise do you do to rehab/prevent it?

LOL! I've messed up my ankles, knees, hips, back, shoulders, neck, head, elbows, wrists, fingers, ...toes... boy, that doesn't leave much untouched, does it? Most were the result of going too fast or hard for my skill level or not tapping in time, though a few were normal accidents.

I always listened to my body, took it easy for as long as necessary, slowly worked safely back up to full activity levels, and did my own research on where to put my trust when I got conflicting medical advice. I've kept in touch with a non-quack chiropractor and an excellent massage therapist and paid attention to their advice on holistic approaches to injury recuperation. When I was fully back in action, I was always careful for an extra month, and I've become very particular about correct form when starting something new.


Yes, it was the Circle Throw-I was too lazy to look up the Japanese term. The bag I was using was too short to stand on its own. I had to hold it up off the ground, about 2-3 feet. It forced me to bend my elbows, which prevented me from getting my foot in the right spot. I was kind of throwing myself back just a touch in an attempt to get the right position. At one point my supporting foot slipped and I came straight down.

Ouch! I've done the same thing a number of times, and always regretted it. You can do the same drill, but let me add a couple of technical points that will help prevent a recurrence.

1. Put down a little padding.
2. Hold the bag at arm's length, straight out from your shoulders.
3. Step one foot forward, directly under or slightly behind the bag.
4. As you sit down to that heel, try to touch the bottom (or front) of the bag with the ball of your other foot.
5. Whether you are touching the bag or not, do not start your roll back until you have sat down all the way.

I tried it out with a basic school backpack about 20" tall and it worked fine, so your taller heavy bag should make it a bit easier on you. Don't try it until your back is a little better and go slow until you get the form down.

Good luck!

[rbibbs]

Excellent counsel and post, Jason.

Thanks,
Rick

[juszczec]

HI folks

Unfortunately, Friday's treatment didn't do the trick.

I swam on Sunday and felt it during half the turnarounds. I did kata and hit the heavy bag on Monday. I felt it 1/2-3/4 of the time I kicked with my left leg. I'd also feel it intermittantly as I was moving around the bag.

So they put me in traction for 20 minutes today and dug at the tense spots for about 10 minutes after I was off the rack. I am to test drive it by swimming today and hitting the bag/focus mitts tomorrow.

If that doesn't do the trick I'm looking at more examinations and more rehab.

Grrrrrrrrrrr

Mark

[Scott Sonnon]

Mark,


Its the disk L5 part that scared the daylights out of me.
Relax, Mark. Fear causes bracing. Bracing may lead to postural distortions to prevent painful events. This in turn may cause vertebral subluxation... which eventually may lead to a host of chronic issues (see the Wheel of Dis-Ease in Body-Flow: Freedom From Fear-Reactivity (http://www.rmax.tv/bodyflow.html).)

Work 400-500 pelvic circles throughout the day until it resolves. Work slowly and smoothly 70-100 Spinal Rocks per day until it resolves.

Keep us advised of your progress.

[juszczec]

Relax, Mark. Fear causes bracing. Bracing may lead to postural distortions to prevent painful events. This in turn may cause vertebral subluxation... which eventually may lead to a host of chronic issues


I've gotten clarification on my PT's remark. She meant left untreated this injury could someday effect L5. As it is now, L5 is fine.

I'm curious about your statement. Do you mean fear (even mild anxiety like I experienced) can cause excess muscular tension?



(see the Wheel of Dis-Ease in Body-Flow™: Freedom From Fear-Reactivity (http://www.rmax.tv/Body-Flow™.html).)


Thanks for the url. I'll take a look.



Work 400-500 pelvic circles throughout the day until it resolves. Work slowly and smoothly 70-100 Spinal Rocks per day until it resolves.


Can someone describe these exercises?



Keep us advised of your progress.

Ok. Yesterday evening I swam. I felt very mild pain (almost too little to call pain) during 1 or 2 of the turnarounds. Focus mitts in a few hours.

Thanks for all the good advice folks.

Mark

[Scott Sonnon]

I'm curious about your statement. Do you mean fear (even mild anxiety like I experienced) can cause excess muscular tension? Tension comes before fear (the emotional feeling, that is). This is the primary subject of Body-Flow: Freedom From Fear-Reactivity.



Work 400-500 pelvic circles throughout the day until it resolves. Work slowly and smoothly 70-100 Spinal Rocks per day until it resolves.
Can someone describe these exercises? The prior is in Warrior Wellness; and the latter in Be Breathed.

[juszczec]

I did 10 reps of kata and 9 2 minute rounds of combinations on the focus mitss.

Overall, I only felt it about 1/4 of the time. Even that wasn't "pain" so much as an awareness of spots of tightness in my back.

The lower I kicked with my left leg, there was less sensation of "pain", "tightness" or whatever you want to call it. Kicking at knee level was sensation free.

Cool!

I had full range of motion of my right leg and using my arms was fine too.

I'm going to go over all this with my PT this morning. I suspect I won't need further abuse, oops I mean treatment :D

I won't spar or wrestle this week. I'm going on vacation next week and will likely swim, lift and maybe do kata or hit the heavy bag (if the local YMCA has one). Depending on how that feels, I may or may not spar on Friday next week when I return.

If sparring doesn't hurt then I'll do some takedown practice (with a person and a thick mat) and drill ground techniques on Saturday.

Thanks for listening and for the advice.

Mark