connective tissue

[mechow]

Awhile ago I was told that I have weak connective tissue because I grew so fast. Now Im reconsidering that in light of a recent injury. The signs point to it being true. Does anybody have any idea how to strengthen those connective tissues especially in my legs and lower back? I was thinking yoga and balance drills, warrior wellness. Im doing body-flow, and Im really enjoying it. However I have a really wierd knee injury and its keeping me from fully exploring body-flow. Im not sure anybody has seen this injury before. Usually I try to stay positive about it but its getting me down tonight. Im thinking its all because I have weak connective tissues, so I need to approach it. Thanks :roll:

[rbibbs]

It's easy for muscle strength growth to outstrip connective tissue growth, muscles are vascularized, connective tissue isn't. Don't let it bum you Dan, it's just a parameter to work within. To work around it, you'll need to develop 'ideal' biomechanical form, which isn't a bad thing to have. :)

Wish I had more knowledge and direction to offer, but other than "going slowly" I haven't fully figured my way around it either.

Rick

[mechow]

Thankyou Rick. :? Yeah I definatley feel it when Im out of alignment. Some times I think of it as a blessing because I know when my knees are even slightly out. Better to have that and not make any mistakes than to really compress under something big misaligned and have it much worse b/c of bad habits! I mainly have to find another way to approach the shinbox from the cossack squat b/c if I roll down into it w/o posting a hand, my knee pops out for a sec (it doesn't hurt anymore). But I can roll up onto it from the shinbox no problem. Also Im a little concerned with transition from standing to squating. Im working alot with moving from squatting to standing and back down. That whole transition piece is facinating me ever since I saw 'The last Samauri' :x where they drop right down onto the ground from walking. Beautiful. Id love to be able to move around freely in that transitory space, like golem in 'The Lord of the Rings' if you saw that. So Ive been working the ball of foot positions until they started to hurt. They seem to be more mobile short of rolling around. Thats another thing. I think body-flow is going to really make my falling, rolling and recovery game really interesting.

[Scott Sonnon]

I mainly have to find another way to approach the shinbox from the cossack squat b/c if I roll down into it w/o posting a hand, my knee pops out for a sec (it doesn't hurt anymore).
Dan, no problem using your hands as training wheels. Keep practicing so and the mobility may help release the fixation preventing your natural ROM. It did for me.

[mechow]

Thanks Coach.

[rbibbs]

Dan, a few years back, I thought all squats were two things, vertical, and impossible. I have bird legs and problematic knees dating back to 1982. Vertical squats are still futile, but with efficient form I can transition stand/squat/stand relatively easily. No way I could have "powered" my way through that.

We may be conditioned to think that motion, especially in exercise, should be difficult. It might just be an "old guy" thing, but I'm more inclined to find the easy way to move. I can't say with 'authority' whether that's right or not, but I CAN say, it's better than not moving at all. :)

Rick

[bob_stra]

Does anybody have any idea how to strengthen those connective tissues especially in my legs and lower back?

Indeed.

You want the long version, or the longer version? ;-)

I'll put something interesting together for you tommorow if I get the time.

Edited -

I forgot to mention. On the topic of connective tissue healing (theoretical aspects), this is the best book I've ever seen. Chances are, you can find it thru one of your local libraries.

http://tinyurl.com/q64c

[mechow]

Im really thinking about what Im doing on the ground after I fall. Im finding some flow. Im feeling the momentum and whole body coordination in getting up effortlessly. Im wondering if there will come a point where my proprioceptive sense is so well developed and present that there simply isnt a hole for joint disfunction. One thing I noticed is that finding a movement with flow into a forward or backward roll can generate momentum to rise. I also felt that the horizontal spinning energy of moving from a shinbox into triangle squat to flat foot squat could be transferred with flow and alignment into a vertical w/out much exertion. It felt pretty cool when it happened.

Rick thanks for your support. I noticed that you recomend piracetam on your website. A most interesting drug. Ive never taken it, but am considering it. What do you think of it?

Bob, thanks. If you have the time Id take the long version. Or whatever you have time for. Your time and consideration are much appreciated.

[JasonE]

Considering the connective tissue issues I've had before, I might have to pick up that book you posted the link for, Bob.

Thanks!

[rbibbs]

Dan, I've got piracetam and taken it, but not noticed any specific effects. That could mean anything from "it doesn't do anything", to "I'm not perceptive enough to notice what it does", to "I don't have a condition to which it applies", or things I haven't even thought of. It's still on there because the literature suggests it's worth looking into, and it's widely used with no reported toxicity.

I've noticed a non-caffeine type of stimulant effect from DMAE, I describe it as giving me a feeling "I should be doing something" if I take it on an otherwise idle day, which suggests it's good for mental alertness, for such things as long drives. I don't use either regularly, the rest of the supplements, I do.

Just mathematically, I don't think 1 gram of supplemental glutamine is going to make much of a difference in my growth or performance, but my eating habits are very firmly established, and I feel that there are advantages, even at the gram level, to supplementing with refined proteins. At the very least, I'm getting nutrition with virtually zero digestive overhead.

The immune/recovery supplements, I have more evidence for. I was prone to nasal allergies and infections before I started taking them, and much less so now. Last winter I got the flu, I know it was the flu because my hair hurt, but it only lasted 24hours rather than the 7-10 days which could have otherwise been anticipated.

Like I say about all non-drug supplements, the user reviews the available documentation, tries it (or doesn't), and decides for himself it it's applicable to his condition and goals. Because of the nature of supplements, their manufacture and distribution, essentially all evidence for their efficacy is "scientifically" anectodal. Add to that another anecdote, that half of all physician referrals in Europe result in the recommendation of herbal or food-concentrate supplements, rather than regulated drugs. It's only been legal to sell them in the US since 1996, so the definitive evidence is yet to be tallied.

Rick

[bob_stra]

Dan

Sorry for the late reply. I had my msg all typed out when *CRASH* went the PC. I'll try to re-create the useful info.

For educational purposes only. Elements could be wrong. I've said nothing of nutritional factors, which I believe are of some importance, nor massage etc. Look into that. You can skip all the preamble and go right to the end (********) if you wish.

> Awhile ago I was told that I have weak connective tissue because I
> grew so fast.

Short version:

What a crock of shit ;-) Unless you have a genetic disorder or have been abusing steroids, I find this *incredibly* unlikely. Even "simple" stuff like fascial hernias etc are very, very uncommon IMHO.

Longer version:

Firstly, what do you mean by connective tissue? Believe it or not, there are several types of "proper" connective tissue, as well as countless "improper types" (blood, fat, bone etc). Classification depends of composition, structural organization and fibril type (collagen I-XVI, elastin etc). All of it is alive and contantly adapting.

Being that the whole body is organized a one unit, it's really hard to distinguish where one thing ends and another begins. They make it look real simple in books and such, but if you've ever cut up a chicken to eat, I challenge you to cleanly identify where CT ends and something else begins.

Take home message: What is "weak connective tissue?" How is it different from "weak muscle tissue," (also a type of connective tissue!). Do either thing exist and if so, how do the relate to injury? How is it defined and detected? How did this person determine you have weak connective tissue - biopsy, imaging? Which aspect of your CT is weak? How do other aspects affect it?

> Now Im reconsidering that in light of a recent injury. The signs
> point to it being true.

Short version:

If you mean pain, then you should know that pain is a symptom of something, not a sign. With that in mind, how do you know pain 1 is caused by the same thing as pain 2? What is this recent injury?

Longer version:

When you say low back, I'm guessing you're not talking about how to strengthen your lymph fluid ;-) (Improper CT. BTW, yes, you can have low back pains related to lymph fluid). There are three prominent types of CT in that area - ligaments (connect bone to bone), tendons (bone : muscle) Aponeuroses (fascia).

Ligaments -

Obviously, the chief ligaments here are the ligaments that connect the vertebra. They are composed of Dense Regular Connective tissue. Dense regular is named after its appearance under microscope - thick layers of cleanly ordered tissue. Unfortunately, while this gives it some advantages (ability for slight movement), it also makes it a smidgen weaker than Dense Irregular CT (which has fibers running in many "disordered" directions). Ligaments here also contain elastic tissue.

Take home message: By their very construction, the spinal ligaments are meant to be somewhat mobile. Ironically, its one of the reasons why 90% of all adults at some time have back pain. So, one needs to develop "mobile stability" in this area, not concrete ligaments.

Aponeuroses -

Wrap and bind muscle tissue. Provide route for blood vessels and nerves into muscle. Help muscle keep its shape / path. Connect to other tissue. Diffuse some of the external force.

Obviously there are many types of this CT in the low back and legs. Lumbrodorsal fascia springs to mind, as does the Gluteal aponeurosis, ITB etc.

Tendons:

Connect bone to muscle. Far too many to list.

Take home message: "Connective tissue" in the low back and legs is about as useful as saying "my whatsits hurts when I do this". There dozens of muscles, tendons and aponeuroses in this area. There are countless things that could be happening in any one of these areas, individually or in combination. All of this makes it impossible to prognosticate over the internet. See someone knowledgeable and trustworthy. DC, AT, PT, DO are specialists in musculoskeltal domain. MD's by and large are not.

******************

>Does anybody have any idea how to strengthen those connective tissues >especially in my legs and lower back? I was thinking yoga and balance


Short answer: Yes, but....

Long answer: Maybe, but....

I can give you a generic rehab plan that might be used by a PT. It has some good points and some bad points. Here's an example as it relates to shoulder injuries -

http://www.uoregon.edu/~athmed/scaprhythm/rehab.html

Obviously the exercise there aren't appropriate to back and legs. But
the sequencing is. So modify to suit your needs -

For example -

Phase I:
Exercises :
*******
+PROM, AAROM and AROM
*
(FYI - IIRC PROM (passive range of motion), AAROM (active assisted) and AROM (Active). In otherwords, stuff like Warrior Wellness, done slowly, sometimes using one body part to help move another one. (eg: spinal twists: lying on the floor, knee bent. Place right knee on left. Use the weight of right leg to move left leg / spine gently to the left). Or using a partner to help. The link at the bottom of my text also indirectly relates to this)


+Implementation of the upper body ergometer (UBE) for ROM and function.

(There are lower body versions of this, but outside of a rehab department, your unlikely to find such a beast. Instead, concentrate on S-L-O-W-L-Y upping your reps and sets. Perhaps adding 2 reps to your total every second week, while maintaining the same total time)
*******
+Circumduction pendulum swings (Codman's) for pain management and ROM.

(warrior wellness routine, club swings etc)
******
+Isometric co-contractions may also be used in this phase to regain proper individual muscle

(Important! The onus is on you to investigate isometrics as they apply to rehab. Shaf did a fantastic recap of the different types. You can see it here -

http://tinyurl.com/27fjd

Yoga could serve this purpose as well, from what I understand. However, you must be careful not to over extend yourself whilst doing it, as some yoga positions might be contra-indicated (eg: the one pavel call the "pretzel"). No doubt there are many such isometric exercise in "ye olde time" strength manual, ala Charles Atlas. Check here -

http://www.maxalding.plus.com/exercises/exercises.htm

http://tinyurl.com/jhif

(The link at the bottom of my text also indirectly relates to this)
******************
+Joint mobilizations

(guess ;-)

The most important thing is not to jump from phase I to phase IV. Set yourself a 1 month time limit to move thru each phase.

******************

Finally -

> However I have a really wierd knee injury and its keeping me from
> fully exploring Body-Flow™.

This is a whole other topic. The short answer is - you must discover a way to intelligently use your body within the current limitations. I know that's kinda glib, but the response to this question would be three times the length to your first one. The only thing I can recommend on the fly is that you try some of the things contained here

http://www.nas.com/~richf/pastlow.htm

as well as reading some of the other knee injury threads we've had. Beyond that, your going to have to be very specific in what / how / when you're encountering problems.

Hope all that's of some use. I think you had the basic rehab ideas down pat, just needed a gentle nudge in the right (educational) directions.

Let us all know how it turns out.

[Jarlo Ilano]

Gee, Bob, tell us how you really feel! :wink:

Good stuff as always.

Dan, Bob gave you alot to process and it is all very useful. Perhaps I can add one more thing. Don't resign yourself to having "weak connective tissue" just because someone with "authority" said so.

You obviously have the desire to get beyond this, in both initiating further training, and asking for assistance here. This is the first step. Keep making the next step forward until you get to where you want to be.

Jarlo

[bob_stra]

Gee, Bob, tell us how you really feel! :wink:



In hindsight, I may have been a little harsh there ;-)

I do apologise if it came off that way. Damn PC crashes all the time and it sometimes
makes me a little .... surly ;-) The guy that installed the components installed the Graphics card on the same adress as the PCI-to-PCI bridge (whatever the hell that is), so anytime the graphics card access a specific screen resolution / colour, WHAM.

You know, I did actually read something once about *specifically* increasing tendon thickness via Olympic lifting. Didn't bookmark the URL though.

Got anything on that topic?

[Jarlo Ilano]

If I remember correctly, tendons and ligaments are said to preferentially respond to quick applications of force. The speed of the force transmission is not attenuated by the muscle and is instead absorbed by the tendon/ligment structure (Sharpey's fibers and whatnot)...Wolfe's Law and all that.
This would fit into Olympic Lifting being a good stimulus.

I could be wrong, I'll have to see if I can round up any references.

jarlo

[JasonE]

Good stuff, Bob!

You've just given me some homework to do...LOL! Good thing the GF's out of town so I can have her computer time. :wink:


Perhaps I can add one more thing. Don't resign yourself to having "weak connective tissue" just because someone with "authority" said so.

Brilliant point here... I can't count how many men, later renowned for their strength, speed, endurance, skill, and achievements... were told to resign themselves to always being frail and sickly in their youth.

More recently, you can see Tre Telligman who earned a tough rep fighting in MMA for the Lion's Den, though he's missing his right pectoralis major. Lance Armstrong came back from chemo to win the Tour de France... how many times now? At least 4!

Sometimes it's better to ignore those who advise you that you will always be subpar.

[Scott Sonnon]

Bob, you really need to convert that into article format for CST Mag, amigo!

[rbibbs]

Install more conflicting hardware in your computer Bob, you're awesome when you're cranky! :D

Rick