RMAXing Silat

[mushtaq]

This section of the forum is quite timely for me. I have held as a goal for some time to completely rejuvenate the style of Pencak Silat (pronounce it like pentjak Silat) I practice and teach, and to overcome some of the traps and limitations I have found in it.

I am quite fortunate in this endeavor, being as that I have the blessings of my teacher for this project.

While the Indonesian Martial arts are, in my opinion, as good as can be found throughout the world, there are some real problems that do not get addressed because of "tradition" and other such silly reasons.

So if this is a good place for such a discussion, I would be grateful for an area where I can pick people's brains on how to make my martial art both more effective and more efficient. (and bring it into the 21 century).

Of the things that I see as a problem with Silat, one of the biggest is the learning curve. With many, if not most styles it takes way too long to learn the art.

One of the systems I studies figures at least twenty years to just finish the curriculum, let alone get good at it. It seems to me that it should not take more time to learn a martial art than it does to become a neurosurgeon.

So I would love to talk about what I have done so far (because RMAX has been my main tool to examine and restructure what I am doing) and to get ideas on how to go further.

[ryandalcampbelll]

Mushtaq,

I'll be very interested in this and how you RMAX it. I don't practice Silat myself even though I'm based in Indonesia (and have been for a few years). I've actually been in the past pretty critical of it although as there isn't really a 'silat' but instead many silats it would be fairer to say that I've been critical of certain aspects of it.

But, if someone was to come along and suggest ways of cutting through a ton of the omong kosong, I may and would like to revisit it.

[Scott Sonnon]

Having the opportunity to play a few seconds of silat with Bryce this weekend and watch him and Peter, I'm impressed and looking forward to where you go with this.

[Coach Jones]

One of the systems I studies figures at least twenty years to just finish the curriculum, let alone get good at it. It seems to me that it should not take more time to learn a martial art than it does to become a neurosurgeon.

Amen, Mushtaq! I have always felt the same way regarding Internal systems. Not to mention that many of the ideas about it taking so long come down from times when 20 years meant hours a day EVERY DAY often at the exclusion of everything else. In today's society that type of schedule is not only impracticle but darn near impossible.

I think this is a perfect place for this thread.

Now comes the part where I say, "You need to get to a Flowfighting seminar."

The amount of information and concept someone of your background could glean from and bring to the seminar would be amazing.

In regard to the thread...

A good starting place in RMAX'ing an existing system is the understanding that you are always training. The more that you can marry all aspects of your training together under one set of guidelines the better.

I mentioned this briefly in the thread on the evolution of Flowfighting.

[ryandalcampbelll]

Mushtaq, Out of curiosity which style of Silat is it you practice? I'm probably most familiar with the Nusantara style but I very recently did a month in Bali where I trained with a former champion whose silat was Bali style.

[SenseiThom]

I'm VERY interested in this topic. I practice PSP Combat Silat and JeetKuneDo mainly...but I spice it up with other styles...I find that the learning model/curric. is very structured in my system which has its advantages....problem is, however, then when I call out "ok, everyone...I want you to go really slow and flow from one movement to the next as natural as possible according to the stimulus/action presented to you"...I get maybe 1 or 2 people who really can do this...with proper physics, calm awareness, and precision. Looking forward to reading more in this topic.

Sahnya Thom

[Ryan Murdock]

Mushtaq,

This will be an interesting journey, amigo. I'm really looking forward to reading your observations. I don't have any experience in Silat, but if there's anything that I can contribute from an RMAX point of view I'd be happy to participate. :cool:

[Scott Sonnon]

I'm VERY interested in this topic. I practice PSP Combat Silat and JeetKuneDo mainly...but I spice it up with other styles...I find that the learning model/curric. is very structured in my system which has its advantages....problem is, however, then when I call out "ok, everyone...I want you to go really slow and flow from one movement to the next as natural as possible according to the stimulus/action presented to you"...I get maybe 1 or 2 people who really can do this...with proper physics, calm awareness, and precision. Looking forward to reading more in this topic.

Sahnya Thom

Sahnya,

Mushtaq was explaining to me this weekend when we were together in San Francisco with two Silat masters that this is a common problem.

Mushtaq and I were discussing how the nature of drill progression in Softwork was a key technology to helping unlock natural improvisational flow.

[Quentin Vaughan]

this is the kind of intelligent, thought provoking, exploration i've always wanted from the martial arts that i love so much. i feel so blessed to be in this company of beings. i look forward to this dialogue and i can't wait for the next FLowFighting Seminar!

[sames]

Mushtaq, when I saw this thread topic I knew it would be a great discussion. RMAX Powered Silat is a natural and you are definately the man to lead the way. The dabbling of silat I've had the fortune of experiencing (a PSP Keluarga and working on/off with Brand a few years back on Zulfikari) changed the way I approach all other martial arts and left me wanting much more.

[mushtaq]

I gotta say I am profoundly grateful for such support from everyone.

Where to start.....



Amen, Mushtaq! I have always felt the same way regarding Internal systems. Not to mention that many of the ideas about it taking so long come down from times when 20 years meant hours a day EVERY DAY often at the exclusion of everything else. In today's society that type of schedule is not only impracticle but darn near impossible.
I think I actually got that analogy from you, or something very much like it. I have always found it strange that such a learning process should have to take so long.



I think this is a perfect place for this thread.

Now comes the part where I say, "You need to get to a FlowFighting™ seminar."
I agree completely. FlowFighting™ seems to be the way to go. I have gotten a lot of very useful material from the SoftWork and HardWork DVD's as well as the other RMAX material, but there is nothing like hands on for real learning.

Your RMAX Powered Internal Martial Art DVD has also been of great use. Not just for the material and instruction, but also as a template for how one might go about the task of RMAXing a martial art. I think that for anyone who is interested in revamping their martial art, your DVD is a must have.



In regard to the thread...

A good starting place in RMAX'ing an existing system is the understanding that you are always training. The more that you can marry all aspects of your training together under one set of guidelines the better.

I mentioned this briefly in the thread on the evolution of FlowFighting™.
Words to live by.



Mushtaq, Out of curiosity which style of Silat is it you practice? I'm probably most familiar with the Nusantara style but I very recently did a month in Bali where I trained with a former champion whose silat was Bali style.

It is mostly Sunda Silat, one off the myriad variants of Cimande, but evolved for life in the 21 century West. My teacher is something of a progressive and believes in growing and adapting to existing circumstances.


I'm VERY interested in this topic. I practice PSP Combat Silat and JeetKuneDo mainly...but I spice it up with other styles...I find that the learning model/curric. is very structured in my system which has its advantages....problem is, however, then when I call out "ok, everyone...I want you to go really slow and flow from one movement to the next as natural as possible according to the stimulus/action presented to you"...I get maybe 1 or 2 people who really can do this...with proper physics, calm awareness, and precision. Looking forward to reading more in this topic.
Ah, I know Sean and think well of him. Let me second what Scott said, SoftWork is the way to start teaching people to slow down enough to learn the more subtle aspects of Silat. It is very easy to plug silat drills into the SoftWork protocol.


Mushtaq,

This will be an interesting journey, amigo. I'm really looking forward to reading your observations. I don't have any experience in Silat, but if there's anything that I can contribute from an RMAX point of view I'd be happy to participate. :cool:
Ryan,

I will be glad of any help you offer. It doesn't matter if you know nothing about Silat, you have the experience of the process of refining a martial art in RMAX terms, which is worth more than any delivery system specific material.


Mushtaq, when I saw this thread topic I knew it would be a great discussion. RMAX Powered Silat is a natural and you are definately the man to lead the way. The dabbling of silat I've had the fortune of experiencing (a PSP Keluarga and working on/off with Brand a few years back on Zulfikari) changed the way I approach all other martial arts and left me wanting much more.
Thanks Steve! I'll be looking forward very much to any thoughts you might have.

So I will write something up as to what I have worked out so far and put it up for everyone to review shortly.

Thanks again to everyone, I am really looking forward to all of your input on this.

[Trebor]

Interesting topic. I love silat.

Ironically, the silat I take is called Sikap Baru or New approach/Attitude. Jurus were done away with. The focus is on principles/rules and sparring. Much of the traditional goodies were thrown over board. The style has a built in mechanism for growing rather than being fixed.

Learning begins with discovering how to deal with incoming force. Much like the clips I've seen here and there on Rmax. Though there are differences (not better/worse - just differences)

I personally wish that some of the old jurus and other traditional methods were kept around -- though at the time in Indonesia the instructor was concerned the students were too focused on forms and not enough on learning to fight.

Instructionally they have some training that progresses from static and compliant to dynamic and more resistance. Others focused on attack and defense where you attack for 5 moves while the other defends for 5 moves, the switch.

One of the areas I'd be very interested in exploring is that of the strategy of the art. The strategy seeks a superior position first. Then attack. So, do you Rmax the strategy - or Rmax the way the strategy is ingrained in the fighter so it happens spontaneously in the heat of battle?

And with Silat's love of the knife, this post could have been called Rmax Powered Knife Fighting.

Another interesting area of exploration would be the throwing aspects of the art. I can't speak for other silats- but in ours you can definitely see the "blade aware" aspect of throws and how they differ from those in other throwing arts.

That brings up the issue - if you train to throw assuming an armed opponent, do you modify the throw in the moment if there is no blade present (assuming you even see it). Our art has chosen to assume a blade - but that doesn't make it the right approach. Perhaps the ability to adapt throwing strategy/methods "in the moment" is the more advanced path?

Anyway, looking forward to the tribes thoughts.

[mushtaq]

What started me on the road to RMAXing my Silat was taking a ruthless and painfully honest examination of the various systems I had studied and the one I was teaching, using CST philosophy as a template. This brought me to several inescapable conclusions.

One I have already mentioned is that the long learning curve found in most Silat is of no value and probably represents a sort of pathology passed down from teacher to student unintentionally.

This lead me to the question "how can I teach Silat to someone in a reasonable amount of time and lose none of the effectiveness or efficiency of the art?"

Another problem area is that though most Silat claims to be a principle based art, in practice this is not very often actually the case. Silat is often plagued with an overemphasis on technique, and a lack of understanding of the principles that drive (or should drive) the art.

The last thing I will address as a problem in this message is the disconnect between training and fighting. Often, when a Silat player meets a fully uncooperative opponent. their art breaks down completely. I believe this is because most Silat puts too much energy into training with cooperative "combat" drills of one form or another and not enough stress on free sparring.

Which brings me to the areas I have been working with to "Rmax" my Silat

My first step was to graft the "Health First" philosophy of CST onto the way teaching Silat is approached. It seems to me that though there are other training philosophies, "health first" has the most meaning for me. I don't feel the pressure to train people rapidly so that they can defend the village, which I suspect is the most valid reason to give people practices like power breathing, which seem to give short term gains at the expense of long term health.

Of course it is one thing to think "health first" and another to do "health first".

So I created a sort of "yardstick" by which to evaluate whether or not what I was doing was grounded in the RMAX first principle. This had two parts, first is the Breath Mastery Scale, which I consider to be the most fundamental concept and tool of CST. My intuition is that if this one piece were removed from CST, the whole would more or less collapse, so I use it as ground upon which skill is developed.

The second part of the yardstick is the "breath-movement-structure triangle", where "breath" is defined by the mastery scale, and does not move below "performance breath". As any number of yoga teachers have pointed out, if you stay within your breath you will not injure yourself with your movement, so it seems a good foundation.

With this as a foundation I began examining movement as it is taught in the system of Silat I practice.

Movement within Silat can be defined at several levels. The first is "gerakan biji" or "seed movement". These are simple movements such as extending the arm.

The next level of movement in learning Silat is Dasar or foundational elements, which are made from the seed movements. Dasar can be modeled exactly as biomechanical exercise. They have a beginning, middle and end, and should integrate breath, structure and movement.

The Dasar are joined together into a Juru.

Juru means "a skill", and I have sort of redefined them to mean a kinetic chain, in this case a closed chain.

I took the jurus within my system (there are sixteen) and deconstructed them into the component Dasar.

I tried something with a new group of students that I had picked up from one of the articles in CST magazine. Rather than teaching them the jurus in the standard manner, which is all at once from start to finish and go over it again and again while giving an application or two for each movement.

Instead, I taught each dasar of the juru as a separate movement set, and taught them in reverse order from the juru (and without reference to any specific technique) Only when a student felt comfortable with all the dasar and could move through them with a rpd of 3, a rpe of 6 or less and a rp of 8 did I stitch the dasar into the juru which I had them practice as a BodyFlow kinetic chain, still without reference to any specific martial technique, but only to develop movement attributes.

At the same time I put together progressive drills based on the skills that each juru should develop, which move from static to dynamic to flow and from SoftWork to HardWork. Interestingly, what happened was that my students began making the connections between the jurus and the drills all on there own.

The outcome to this so far is that my students are learning the jurus in weeks instead of months and are able to apply the principles of the jurus more or less intuitively.

What I am working on now is called pecahan, (pronounce it pechahan) which means to break up or shatter into pieces, and is use to denote variations in technique.

I have redefined this to be open kinetic chains. We are working to be able to transition the dasar from each juru with all the others. I have just started this so the effectiveness is unknown as yet but I am hopeful.

There is more, but this seems a good point to stop for the moment. I look forward to your comments and critiques.

[Quentin Vaughan]

first if i hadn't before express what a pleasure it was meeting you at The Path workshop in SF. your energy and presence was evident thru the whole weekend.

though ive only tasted a bit of Silat years ago i feel what you have done and intend to do is brilliant and very BRAVE. yet so needed in this world. to think and feel outside of the box of conventiality. to see things with new eyes. i just LOVE that! that's one of the reasons i love RMAX so much.

i 'll be watchin and readin all u share.

Q

[sames]

This is some really cool work.


The last thing I will address as a problem in this message is the disconnect between training and fighting. Often, when a Silat player meets a fully uncooperative opponent. their art breaks down completely. I believe this is because most Silat puts too much energy into training with cooperative "combat" drills of one form or another and not enough stress on free sparring.
I think you'd be pressed to find a martial art that doesn't suffer from this to some degree.


Instead, I taught each dasar of the juru as a separate movement set, and taught them in reverse order from the juru (and without reference to any specific technique) Only when a student felt comfortable with all the dasar and could move through them with a rpd of 3, a rpe of 6 or less and a rp of 8 did I stitch the dasar into the juru which I had them practice as a BodyFlow kinetic chain, still without reference to any specific martial technique, but only to develop movement attributes.

So your goal here was just to get the physical movement correct? Any thought to speed/power/intent? You said without reference to specific martial technique and I was left wondering...


At the same time I put together progressive drills based on the skills that each juru should develop, which move from static to dynamic to flow and from SoftWork to HardWork. Interestingly, what happened was that my students began making the connections between the jurus and the drills all on there own.

Good stuff. I know I've seen your students make those connections (*head slap* Duh, its from the juru) before but it sounds like the timeframe has been compressed. Good work.


What I am working on now is called pecahan, (pronounce it pechahan) which means to break up or shatter into pieces, and is use to denote variations in technique.

I have redefined this to be open kinetic chains. We are working to be able to transition the dasar from each juru with all the others. I have just started this so the effectiveness is unknown as yet but I am hopeful.

Keep it coming. This is great exploration!

-Steve

[Coach Jones]

Mushtaq,

This is some great stuff. You had me at hello with this:


What started me on the road to RMAXing my Silat was taking a ruthless and painfully honest examination of the various systems I had studied and the one I was teaching...

That is hands down the hardest thing for any of us to do. You have to be willing from the beginning to throw everything away. You won't need to, but you have to be willing to. Most folks aren't willing/able to do that.

[mushtaq]

So your goal here was just to get the physical movement correct? Any thought to speed/power/intent? You said without reference to specific martial technique and I was left wondering...

Conventional thinking in Silat says that the Jurus will teach a student to fight. I do not believe that this is the case, not even with something like the juru-juru duduk of Cimande, which is a two person practice.

A juru being practiced solo, or with a partner asymmetrically, cannot teach someone to fight against a fully resistant opponent. (I realize that this is heresy of the first degree, but what the heck :eek: )
What it can do is develop proper integration between breath, movement and structure, teach joint recruitment, and a good number of "sport specific" attributes.

What I have found is that when the attributes are developed correctly, then "speed happens". I tend to think of "speed" more in terms of efficiency of motion than in terms of fast twitch muscle fiber.

I do not think that you can develop power from solo jurus, rather, you may throw a movement too hard and hyper-extend a joint, or your structure breaks down, or you pressurize and get all "isometric".

On the other hand the Jurus can lay the foundation for generating power correctly, but I think power development may need to be worked against resistance to prevent injury or bad habits developing. (Of course I could be wrong about this).

I have been experimenting with an idea in regards to power.

It seems to me that one way to model a fight (of whatever type) is the idea that your goal is to deliver more energy to your opponent than he can integrate. When your opponent can no longer integrate the energy you give him within his structure, he breaks down.

I have come to this model from watch Scott and the other coaches work the "shock absorption" material in SoftWork. What I noticed that what was going on what not just absorption, but that the force of a strike was being integrated into their structure through loading, and becoming usable stored energy.

In Silat terms they are stealing their opponent's force and then using it against him by feeding it back.

This brings us to the idea of density. It seems to me that you can overload your opponent's ability to integrate energy in two major ways. You can give him so much energy that he just can't handle it any more, even if he he is good at absorbing, or you can help him create an area of density within his structure/breath/movement and feed a little energy into that dense area and effect a collapse of the opponent's system that way.

I think that the latter is more elegant, and more in line with what Silat is supposed to be. (Though I have to admit there is a certain poetry to a well executed overhand right as well).

All this gets us back to the use of Jurus. If I take a Juru to be a kind of Silat specific BodyFlow exercise, then it can be used first to create the sort of plasticity that allows for easy integration of energy, and the flow in movement that helps to create density in an opponent, then I think I have found the original meaning of Juru.



Good stuff. I know I've seen your students make those connections (*head slap* Duh, its from the juru) before but it sounds like the timeframe has been compressed. Good work.

Yep, it seems to be happening in weeks rather than in months.


That is hands down the hardest thing for any of us to do. You have to be willing from the beginning to throw everything away. You won't need to, but you have to be willing to. Most folks aren't willing/able to do that.

It is not an easy thing to do, but it is a sort of mental "cleaning the slate" and just like the physical practice I suspect that it needs to be done regularly if one's practice is to be kept honest. (and with a little practice it doesn't sting so much :D)

[sames]

I have been experimenting with an idea in regards to power.

It seems to me that one way to model a fight (of whatever type) is the idea that your goal is to deliver more energy to your opponent than he can integrate. When your opponent can no longer integrate the energy you give him within his structure, he breaks down.

I have come to this model from watch Scott and the other coaches work the "shock absorption" material in SoftWork. What I noticed that what was going on what not just absorption, but that the force of a strike was being integrated into their structure through loading, and becoming usable stored energy.

In Silat terms they are stealing their opponent's force and then using it against him by feeding it back.

This brings us to the idea of density. It seems to me that you can overload your opponent's ability to integrate energy in two major ways. You can give him so much energy that he just can't handle it any more, even if he he is good at absorbing, or you can help him create an area of density within his structure/breath/movement and feed a little energy into that dense area and effect a collapse of the opponent's system that way.

Love it!

[Trebor]

Reminds me of a quote I ran across years ago...

"Many years ago, as a cadet hoping some day to be an officer, I was pouring over
‘Principles of War,’ listed in the old Field Service Regulations, when the Sergeant-Major came up to me. He surveyed me with kindly amusement. ‘Don’t bother your head about all them things, me lad,’ he said. ‘There’s only one principle of war and that’s this. Hit the other fellow, as quick as you can, and as hard as you can, where it hurts him most, when he ain’t lookin’!"

– Sir William Slim

[brycecarter@mindspring.co]

I have studied and taught White Crane silat for close to 30 years now. The center is in Bogor and it is heavily Chinese influenced & perhaps closer to kun tao than true indigenous Indonesian silat. But these distinctions are not terribly important to me.

I was amazed last year to see Scott moving in some video clips on the web. I had never seen anything that so closely resembled our system of moving on the ground. The rolls, the patterns of movement, the positions he flowed through were all either exactly like or strongly suggestive of our ground work that we think of as our snake system of movement.

I have found silat to be a rich and satisfying martial art system however as Mushtaq points out - it takes too dang long to learn. I have begun to think of different ways or training & teaching as either "enlightment based" or "developmentally based" (I am a shrink in my other life so I am apt to talk in these ways). In the enlightenment model the student dedicates him or herself to a path and the teacher provides key challenges and sometimes mysterious instruction. And the student either gets enlightened at the end of this project or not.

In the developmental model the teacher takes on the job of providing progressive developmental based practices and drills that helps the student to progress and develop their skill set. Enlightened or not the student continues to grow.

In the silat I study it is primarily an enlightenment based model. There is a lot of teaching done and instruction provided - but it is up to the student to have the dedication and inspiration to put it all together & flow and to put it all together into a flowing kind of combat.

While there are benefits to this kind of training I think that some developmental ideas a la the rmax model could definitely improve the training experience.

One of the things I mentioned to Scott in San Francisco was that the movements in silat are embedded into long movements (jalang panjang) which are similar to jurus in other silat systems. This has a certain benefit in that students can learn these movements within a certain structure and can even develop a certain amount of flow through this kind of training.

In the white crane system however, the bridge between the training of the long movements and integrating it into tui chu (exchanging sweat or exchanging blood) which our system of controlled sparring is not very well developed (you just kinda have to find it yourself).

I all over the map here in terms of my observations. I hope these are some useful thoughts. I look forward to reading & posting more on this topic.

Bryce

[Scott Sonnon]

Bryce,


I love the distinction between enlightenment and developmental based educational models. It is distinctions like these which allow practitioners to unhinge misplaced loyalty. It is not a criticism of a style to point out problematic educational modalities. It doesn't even mean that the educational model is ineffective. It may be the case that the cultural context of the educational model is not a 'good fit' - in other words, not efficient for that cultural contexts.


U.S. Americans tend to be very work ethic oriented in a Calvinistic sense. It's often difficult to get them to consider a principle or a concept without first having an empirical, if not kinesthetic, frame of reference.


Over the years I found physical exercise in shorter movements tend to have greater success than longer kinetic chains (success: meaning, the effectiveness of motivating the practitioner to sufficient exploratory practice and work.) If you continue to chunk down your jalang panjang into elementary components, I'm sure that you'll continue to increase the broader success of your student body (which is already evident in the student of yours I had the pleasure of meeting.)


It was a pleasure to watch you guys tui chi and I enjoyed the short exchange I was able to participate in with you.

[SenseiThom]

Coach, I find it to be such a difficult balance to achieve as a "business owner" perspective, too. Reason being, is my students WANT structure after a long hard day at work. It's frustrating for me as their teacher sometimes, because I see SO much potential in each of them if they would trust their brain & body more to "flow" versus this acceptance of structure all the time...I give them building blocks and then challenge them to extend the energy how 'they' feel is most efficient and effective. I would say, about 1 out of 10 really get it. If I conducted my entire school curric. like this, not so sure if I could pay the rent. *smile*...I'm willing to work towards it though. ahhhhhh...the Western mind...

[Scott Sonnon]

Coach, I find it to be such a difficult balance to achieve as a "business owner" perspective, too. Reason being, is my students WANT structure after a long hard day at work. It's frustrating for me as their teacher sometimes, because I see SO much potential in each of them if they would trust their brain & body more to "flow" versus this acceptance of structure all the time...I give them building blocks and then challenge them to extend the energy how 'they' feel is most efficient and effective. I would say, about 1 out of 10 really get it. If I conducted my entire school curric. like this, not so sure if I could pay the rent. *smile*...I'm willing to work towards it though. ahhhhhh...the Western mind...

Sahnya,

For many years, I experienced the same in conventional martial arts format.

Get to a Flowfighting Camp. RMAX has a highly effective, rationally-based educational and commercially-viable model. It will take time and dedication to eventually become certified as a coach, but for someone of your commitment, it will be a matter of course.

[Trebor]

Bump...

How's the Quest going Mushtaq?

[bfox]

Vry interesting thread. I don't quite have my thought organized yet, but I'm definitely feeling a real paradigm shift in approach to "MA" training. Here's what I'm doing looks like now, a work in progress:

25m treadmill run

warm up - 50/50 mills and 50 double swipes w/ the 5s

double swipes w/ 15s - there was no counting today but I'll estimate all told 175 or so double swipes. Started w/ standard feet 6" apart stance then went into deep alternating foward lunge, then "female" triangular stepping i.e. alternating 45* to the side. Makes the swipes much harder and obviously works alot of other attributes that simply standing in one place doesn't. Then did them as double side swipes completely facing one direction then 180* turn each rep. Very tricky to stay packed, one wants to drift away from the body.

then worked reverse mills w/ 1 15lb CB, switched hands each rep, and shuffles stance while the CB was airborn on the switch, so you never really get into a groove. Increases the need to generate power with just a quick exhale (internal but not) Did about 50 each side.

then went to the pipes ( 24"/about 2 lbs) and did Kali stick work for about 15m. felt very smooth. worked triangular and hourglass stepping with plenty of rotation, deepish stances and reverse stepping.

Then worked the bag with the same feel carried over from the CBS and pipes.

I'm working on something, but I'm not sure what yet.

[Scott Sonnon]

Mushtaq,

Please post the links to the videos you and I have been discussing on CST stick-fighting SPP exercises with the Clubbell.

Also, we need to get Nigel and the rest of the Pipers on this thread.

[KD Jones]

FYI... "outside world" knowledge of Piper seems to be spreading a bit.

In a completly random conversation with our girl's babysitter - a 15-year-old young woman - I mentioned Piper offhand, only because of some cultural reference I was making. She said, "yeah, I know what Piper is..."

I was completely shocked. I never did get to how exactly she knew of Piper... the mere fact that she did pertty stopped all competing trains of thought...

[bfox]

Mushtaq,

Please post the links to the videos you and I have been discussing on CST stick-fighting SPP exercises with the Clubbell.

Also, we need to get Nigel and the rest of the Pipers on this thread.

Ah Piper, I exchanged a couple emails a few weeks ago with Seth de Jesus, who answered my email to the site (I assume he's related to "Nikko" de Jesus on the site) about training in N.Y. when someones there . He was supposed to call me, but hasn't yet. That would be very cool to get those guys involved. A friend of mine knows Lloyd.

[Scott Sonnon]

Ah Piper, I exchanged a couple emails a few weeks ago with Seth de Jesus, who answered my email to the site (I assume he's related to "Nikko" de Jesus on the site) about training in N.Y. when someones there . He was supposed to call me, but hasn't yet. That would be very cool to get those guys involved. A friend of mine knows Lloyd.

Bill,

Check out Nigel February's site here: http://www.pipersystem.com/index.html (http://www.pipersystem.com/index.html)

They're very into CST. Nigel's been working to get on the forum here, but tech difficulties have been challenging. I look forward to hearing how he's been implementing CST into their knife fighting.

[bfox]

Bill,

Check out Nigel February's site here: http://www.pipersystem.com/index.html (http://www.pipersystem.com/index.html)

They're very into CST. Nigel's been working to get on the forum here, but tech difficulties have been challenging. I look forward to hearing how he's been implementing CST into their knife fighting.

Yeah, that's how I got in touch with this Seth guy, through the site. The blog is interesting. I just noticed the link to here, duh.

[mushtaq]

Mushtaq,

Please post the links to the videos you and I have been discussing on CST stick-fighting SPP exercises with the Clubbell.

Also, we need to get Nigel and the rest of the Pipers on this thread.

These are two clips of Clubbell SSP routines for stick fighting.

The first was put together by my training partner Steve VanHarn to develop more power and speed along certain lines (as if he needs to hit harder :fighting:)
http://www.archive.org/download/MushtaqAliabanico/abanico.wmv

The second was put together by me in Africa specifically for fimbo fighting. It is of note because it works the "pulling" muscles, especially the biceps quite nicely. Some people have suggested that clubbells don't work pulling motions very well :rolleyes:, I have not found this to be the case.
http://www.archive.org/download/MushtaqAliFimbo_0/fimbo.wmv

These are examples of how we are working to integrate CST and Clubbells into our Silat. The goal is to make clubbells a seamless part of our training.

[Scott Sonnon]

It should be noted here that Steve VanHarn is a multiple time world stick fighting champion.

[bfox]

These are two clips of Clubbell SSP routines for stick fighting.

The first was put together by my training partner Steve VanHarn to develop more power and speed along certain lines (as if he needs to hit harder :fighting:)
http://www.archive.org/download/MushtaqAliabanico/abanico.wmv

The second was put together by me in Africa specifically for fimbo fighting. It is of note because it works the "pulling" muscles, especially the biceps quite nicely. Some people have suggested that clubbells don't work pulling motions very well :rolleyes:, I have not found this to be the case.
http://www.archive.org/download/MushtaqAliFimbo_0/fimbo.wmv

These are examples of how we are working to integrate CST and Clubbells into our Silat. The goal is to make clubbells a seamless part of our training.

Good stuff, and very much along the same lines I'm going down.

Are you mostly using heavier CBs and doing 2 hand stuff? Have you played with more closely simulating movements with lighter CBs. I know it's "stimualte don't simulate" but when the weapon and the tool are so similar, the line can be moved a little. I have on good authority some of the Dog Brothers have worked up to doing stuff with 9lb pipes.

[Scott Sonnon]

Good stuff, and very much along the same lines I'm going down.

Are you mostly using heavier CBs and doing 2 hand stuff? Have you played with more closely simulating movements with lighter CBs. I know it's "stimualte don't simulate" but when the weapon and the tool are so similar, the line can be moved a little. I have on good authority some of the Dog Brothers have worked up to doing stuff with 9lb pipes.

Bill,

To my knowledge there are several issues at play here:

1. I would not advise training close to the (skill) groove for those with moderate abilities, for reasons described later.

2. I have found that training close to the groove benefits newbies (to a sport) because frankly there's too great of a deficit in specific strength. However, I have found that in more controlled settings, preparing those fresh to a sport always works better with SPP rather than Simulation Training.

3. Those who are advanced in a sport or discipline have a sufficient "gulley" grooved. No matter how much they train close to the groove, they won't adversely impact their skill because of a simple numbers game. They've been doing it too long. As a result, simulation training doesn't adversely impact it.

However, in this latter issue, I suspect that this is a temporarily neurological gain, not a training effect (though I have not tested, since training advanced practitioners of any discipline is a premium not for tinkering around). For instance, swinging a bat with weighted rings right before hitting the ball, makes the bat feel lighter. This isn't because you're stronger, but because you've tricked the CNS. I know you know this.

But going farther, what I have found is that advanced practitioners rarely over-train, simply because of the weeding out process of actually making it to be an advanced practitioner of any discipline (unfortunately, most people think that they're advanced, when they're only a moderate practitioner; about 2% of the population are actually 'advanced'.) Since they rarely over-train, and only train to supplement their performance, and they have a "gulley" of a groove in their skill set, they're successfully applying the neurological trick repeatedly that I alluded to earlier.

Those are my observations over the years. I haven't performed any controlled studies on this theory of mine, but in empirical observation, it seems to hold true. I could be wrong though.

[Coach Flanagan]

unfortunately, most people think that they're advanced, when they're only a moderate practitioner; about 2% of the population are actually 'advanced'

What benchhmark are you using to define "advanced" vs "moderate" ? What makes advanced skill so seldom attained, in your opinion?

[Scott Sonnon]

Do you mean aside from the fact that they're kicking everyone's ass and never quitting when they don't? ;)

That's the question of the century, my friend. I'll be writing more on this over the years (and many people have.)

In general, most people need to concentrate on training one step ahead of where they are, rather than on training where they think they are and wish they could be. A good coach in any discipline will help them with that.

[Coach Flanagan]

Do you mean aside from the fact that they're kicking everyone's ass and never quitting when they don't?

Yeah, I was also thinking along the lines of non-inherantly competitive sports, such as CST Training as its own sport.

[Coach Hurst]

Sean, looking back at the PDT we have Training, Practice and Competition.

http://www.rmaxi.com/images/pdt.gif

Either CST is the training side of the pyramid for a particular sport like boxing, soccer or cycling; or one's CST incorporates practice and competition (Rite of Passage, ICS, Trial by Fire, et cetera.)

[mushtaq]

Good stuff, and very much along the same lines I'm going down.

Are you mostly using heavier CBs and doing 2 hand stuff? Have you played with more closely simulating movements with lighter CBs. I know it's "stimualte don't simulate" but when the weapon and the tool are so similar, the line can be moved a little. I have on good authority some of the Dog Brothers have worked up to doing stuff with 9lb pipes.

We use both heavy and light clubbells, single and double handed, Probably I use the 15 lb more than any other, divided equally between using one at a time and two at once.

I think trying to use even light clubbells or heavy pipes along the lines of a baston is ill advised from a long term "health first" perspective. You run way too much risk of soft tissue damage and joint hyperextension. I like the spirit the Dog Brothers advocate, and I think that there way of fighting has a lot to recommend it, but to be honest I have never thought much of their training methods as a long term proposition.

I have found that using clubbells along the lines that CST advocates will produce everything you would ever want in the way of sport specific fitness for any form of stick fighting without the risk of damaging one's joints and tendons.

[bfox]

Coach

All valid points. Maxwell and I used to talk about the idea of the "motor learning genius". If, for example, you're one of the 1000 people in the world that has the genetic ability to hit a baseball thrown by a pro picther, swinging a weighted bat isn't going to mess with your inherently superior neural pathways. You have the gifted genetic ability to have both those pathways. Lot's of pro ballplayers could have gone pro in multiple sports.

This came up alot in the old days of Super slow, when the idea was too REALLY seperate out strength training and skill. The GPP/SPP progression is a much better model, but like most ideas, as they get subtler, lines blur.

I "feel" that this training is working, and although I'm certainly not "advanced" in the weapons world I'll give myself an "advanced" in the training world. It probably is wise for only the advanced to play on this edge without a "coaches" watchfull eye.

Mushtaq brings out an important point. I'm a big believer in health first, and I'm very "mindfull" when I'm using the 5lb CBs for actually stick stuff, it's NOT full speed, but it is the same motion. The 2lb pipes I can pretty much swing freely, but I have a lot of reserve from many years of training to handle them. I "feel" that the 5lb CBs are on the edge for me, so elbows stay in, shoulders stay packed etc.. and I wouldn't play with swinging a 9lb pipe on a bet.

I think, at least I know I am, going into a whole new area of "trusting" the experimental process, rather then just collecting "proven" ideas. It's making training pretty freaking sweet on a daily basis.

Good stuff.

[KD Jones]

In general, most people need to concentrate on training one step ahead of where they are, rather than on training where they think they are and wish they could be. A good coach in any discipline will help them with that.

Yet another example in which CST-related statements apply directly to musical training. Of course, he did say "any discipline," but I continue to be amazed at how thoroughly true it is. Maybe I should just accept it and shut up, but I think the universal nature of "this thing" only becomes obvious when one gets considerably deeper down the rabbit hole than I am today.

The most amazing "music coach" I had the honor to work with, Sigrid Grinius, was a coach of the kind intimated here. Completly empathetic, and truly brilliant at keeping a student running inside the gears just fast enough that no toes got caught in the works. As far as I could tell, she taught with NO agenda of her own, her only goal being that her work should make it possible for her students to fully realize themselves.

I think I see some of that going on around here...

[Scott Sonnon]

Coach

All valid points. Maxwell and I used to talk about the idea of the "motor learning genius". If, for example, you're one of the 1000 people in the world that has the genetic ability to hit a baseball thrown by a pro picther, swinging a weighted bat isn't going to mess with your inherently superior neural pathways. You have the gifted genetic ability to have both those pathways. Lot's of pro ballplayers could have gone pro in multiple sports.

This came up alot in the old days of Super slow, when the idea was too REALLY seperate out strength training and skill. The GPP/SPP progression is a much better model, but like most ideas, as they get subtler, lines blur.

I "feel" that this training is working, and although I'm certainly not "advanced" in the weapons world I'll give myself an "advanced" in the training world. It probably is wise for only the advanced to play on this edge without a "coaches" watchfull eye.

Mushtaq brings out an important point. I'm a big believer in health first, and I'm very "mindfull" when I'm using the 5lb CBs for actually stick stuff, it's NOT full speed, but it is the same motion. The 2lb pipes I can pretty much swing freely, but I have a lot of reserve from many years of training to handle them. I "feel" that the 5lb CBs are on the edge for me, so elbows stay in, shoulders stay packed etc.. and I wouldn't play with swinging a 9lb pipe on a bet.

I think, at least I know I am, going into a whole new area of "trusting" the experimental process, rather then just collecting "proven" ideas. It's making training pretty freaking sweet on a daily basis.

Good stuff.

Kinesthetic disposition sounds very plausible to me. The Soviets forged an entire sports platform around it that saw some significant success.

As the years march on, I'm more and more convinced the "health first" fitness is the way to go. I don't know if you could have convinced my 20 year junior self, but you don't need an argument to convince me now. We were talking about this at CST Kappa.

If one's rate of perceived technique is on a scale of 1-10, and one scores say a 6 on good form for an exercise, the other 4 units are training an alternate, unpredictable and potentially hazardous technique. Nothing goes unnoticed.

As we continue to mature in our training, those unpredictable form points accumulate, and leave a lasting, if not harsh impression.

Granted there's physiology there after 55 downshifting, but we're also contributing to it. I'm working primarily on not helping it aong, and am convinced that perfect form in any technique is one of the best anti-aging agents we could use.

[KD Jones]

I'm sorry to keep butting in here, because I know that much of the subtext here is going over my head, but...


If one's rate of perceived technique is on a scale of 1-10, and one scores say a 6 on good form for an exercise, the other 4 units are training an alternate, unpredictable and potentially hazardous technique. Nothing goes unnoticed.

This is MASSIVE, and answers something I've never heard spoken of in this way. I've heard all the "... only perfect practice makes perfect," and "you fight like you train," and, especially in terms of music the imperative to practice a new skill "only as fast as you can play it perfectly," BUT this is a slightly different spin, which takes into account the effects of kinesthetic ability (transferring to varying levels of awareness?) and the possibility of competing pathways, rather than referring - more simplistically - to a single, flawed pathway. Here, it appears, the error is more than a polluting ingredient, it is a simultaneous adaption. (Seperate perhaps only in that the the "mental mapping" excludes it, therefore allowing for the existence of a "correct" - I don't know the term - engram??? - alongside an interferring signal...)
?????


I'm ... convinced that perfect form in any technique is one of the best anti-aging agents we could use.

Take a look at some of the older classically trained violinists from "the golden age" (just as an example). These guys NEVER stopped playing their scales, and they were (are) like kids...

[Trebor]

So, If I merge the various concepts together in this thread I get a Silat/Piper based Flow-knife fighting violinist? :) Probably uses a Stradivarius to fight.

Sounds like a very dangerous man.

[KD Jones]

Snap one of those strings at the right time, and it is over, dude.

[301stSpartan]

A short video clip featuring Nigel February's Piper System of South African Knife Combatives can be found here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QhpAsE8z6JI

Enjoy

[BmCoomes]

:respect:

I was curious if there was any update on your progress Mushtag?

Thanks,

[mushtaq]

:respect:

I was curious if there was any update on your progress Mushtag?

Thanks,

Sorry to have been so long out of touch everyone.

I have been up against a deadline for the last couple of weeks and when I got finished with that one I jumped right back into an ongoing translation project. I have been so caught up in this that I have been dreaming in Sanskrit for the last couple of nights.

I have been working on this quite a bit though.

I recently tried a rather interesting experiment with teaching Silat on my last trip out to San Francisco. I haven't had a chance to write anything about it yet because of other commitments, but one of the participants in my experiment did do a small writeup, which you can find here.

Stickman's Eskrima Blog (http://escrima.blogspot.com/2007/03/meeting-mushtaq-ali.html)

One of the most interesting things I noticed doing his was just how much regular practice of RMAX material can ramp up one's learning curve. I have said (and only half jokingly) on any number of occasions that practicing RMAX makes you smarter, I am now gathering hard evidence to support this hypothesis. ( more on that later)

[BmCoomes]

Thanks for the reply I totaly understand, I have a few things runing away with me right now too.

respect,

[Zephyr]

Thoughts you folks might like to know that the much-awaited Piper Knife site is up:

http://www.piperknife.com/index.html

I've been following the developments since learning about it via this thread.

Brandt

[TNichols]

One of the most interesting things I noticed doing his was just how much regular practice of RMAX material can ramp up one's learning curve. I have said (and only half jokingly) on any number of occasions that practicing RMAX makes you smarter, I am now gathering hard evidence to support this hypothesis. ( more on that later)

A resource to check out in this connection is A Study of the Effect of Interactive Language in the Stimulation of Cognitive Functioning for Students with Learning Disabilities by Kathy Hopkins (dissertation at the College of William and Mary, 1996). My mother is an educational therapist with NILD (National Institute for Learning Development), and she put me onto this. The Rhythmic Writing drill in particular looks like something out of RMAX material, but with an attentional component adapted to an academic setting. A statistical study of that particular therapeutic tool is in progress; I don't know when they plan to publish. (But no doubt it works a treat -- I don't know how it stacks up against other meditative/attentional disciplines, but it definitely works.)

Edit: My gut says that an RMAX (particularly Intu-Flow) demonstration at an NILD convention would precipitate a match made in heaven. (For example, "Stimulate, don't simulate" is right up their alley.) I suspect they'll instantly know a lot more than we do about the attentional applications of what we do, but RMAX can give them something that deals with the attentional issues, and at the same time enhances health and fitness in a way that purely academic/attentional drills can't touch.

[mushtaq]

It has been a while since I have put any thoughts to this thread, partially because the motherboard on my computer fried itself and also because I have been very caught up in the doing of the experiment. Here is the report


The Problem


Over the last few months I have felt I have made some good progress, but thinking and knowing are two different things, so I decided that some testing was in order. The obvious method of testing would of course be competition, but there is a problem.

In the States, there are no tournaments for Silat. Silat teachers and styles have spent years hating and bad-mouthing each other and most of them would not be willing to be in the same room, let alone have their students play in open competition against people from another school. After spending years publicly proclaiming things like "That other guru's Silat is nothing, he got his credentials off the back of a vegetable cart", it just would not do to test your students against his and lose..... Sigh....... Oh well. :rolleyes:

So I was thinking about going to SE Asia or Europe, where things are a bit more mature and you can find Silat tournaments, but the cost of getting a bunch of poor college kids overseas was a bit daunting. What to do?


The Solution


The answer to this dilemma came at this years spring "Gathering of the Tribes" in the form of John and Norm, two guys from Chicago who just happen to run the Sulong Tournament every year.

The Sulong is a combined event that has Traditional (WKA) and Open Karate rings, and what they call the "Pacific Islands" ring, open to any martial art with its origin from any of the Islands. Heretofore this event had been limited to various Filipino martial arts and to Lua the indigenous art of Hawaii, but John was downright excited by the idea of having a Silat school represented.

The Pacific Islands ring has three events, full contact Stick/blade, full contact Knife and forms.

I put it to my guys and they were game, so we put it on our calenders.

We didn't change the training routine much for the event. I had my guys (this is the gender neutral "guys" since we have two female fighters) train with the safety equipment so that they could get used to it (headgear to protect the face and gloves to keep the fingers from being broken) and added a little more knife fencing, as we had not been doing too much of that.

The event happened this last Sunday


The Unexpected Gift


An interesting thing happened between the time we signed up for the event and the day it started.

Originally, the fighters were to be divided by weight class, skill level and gender. But for some reason it was decided at the last moment to make it an open mat, No weight class, no skill class, no gender class.

I thought about it for a bit and realized that the universe had just given me the best possible gift it could have for testing my students. All of this group had been training with me for less than two years, and so would have fought in the beginners levels.

That they could test themselves against people who had been training longer and were bigger would tells us some things. The fact that this would be a weapons based tournament negated some of the disadvantages that my smaller students would have faced if this were a grappling tournament or such like. They call them "equalizers" for a reason, and Silat is a weapons based art, so I was OK with how things went.

So many good things happened for my guys at the tournament I hardly know where to begin.

One of my most accomplished fighters happens to be a thirteen year old girl. She was in her element here, and it was the first time she had gotten to test herself against all comers in an open tournament.

She ended up with two firsts, a third and placed fifth in the overall fighting. It was rather interesting to watch her fight a guy twice her size and age, and to watch her beat him soundly. But she is something of a prodigy.


The Non Prodigy


The student I want to tell you about though in not a prodigy, quite the reverse in fact. He is the one that proves the incredible value of incorporating RMAX principles into one's martial art.

Marc came to me just over a year ago. He was a skinny, hyper-intellectual kid who was the classic "geek" personality. He had never won a fight and had grown up as the target for bullies in school.

He was stiff and rigid, he flinched when anything came at him. He was a "talking head" who if he ever noticed that he had a body, thought of it as just something to get his brain from place to place.

He has changed a bit in the last year.

After a year of clubbells, FlowFit and Forward Pressure he is still lean, but he is whipcord strong now.

After a year of IntuFlow and Prasara flows he has recovered his range of motion, become supple and has done away with much of his sensory-motor amnesia.

After a year of working the breath mastery scale and all of the material on how to enter "the zone" he has dealt with much of his fear.

CST and RMAX turned him from a dried out desert into fertile ground for the Silat delivery system to take root in.

I don't want to boar everyone with too much detail, so I will give you just a brief outline of how Marc's stick fights went.

In this particular tournament, the stick represents a blade and is scored by blade rules. Scores are from clean cuts, chops and thrusts. Slaps with what would be the side of the blade don't count as a hit, but can be used for setups. Strikes can be as powerful as you like but you can score as much with a light clean cut to a vital part of the body. The whole body, with the exception is a target.

His first two fights went very smoothly. His first opponent was a modern Arnis player with about five years experience, and about thirty pounds and five inches on Marc. Marc's Opponent was good, but he used traditional stance and fought with patterns of attack he had obviously learned from traditional static drills.

Marc has no "stance" I taught him mobility instead, so he was able to adapt to and then baffle the other guy's footwork. Marc was also as fast as a mongoose because I have worked extensively with him on selective tension and chaining his joints in a strike. He beat his first opponent by six points.

The second fight was with a guy who was bigger than the first, about 240 to Marc's 145.

Marc embraced the philosophy of "you can't hurt me if you can't hit me" for this match.

The guy would come in with these huge power shots looking to knock Marc out of the ring, only to have Marc remove the part of his body the guy was trying to hit, then snapping back with solid counters as the guy overextended (thank you SoftWork). Another clean win for Marc.

The next two bouts were very interesting because Marc had to fight his two best friends.

These are the guys who brought him into my class and who he grew up with.

First he fought Adam, who is about Marc's size. Both of them are quick and precise. This ended up being the most technical fight of the whole tournament. It was a lot like a hyper-speed chess match with hitting.

Both of them understood the more subtle aspects of bladework, so there was no flailing or wild strikes. Marc won by two points.

This put him two fights away from first place.

His next fight was with Scooter, who is 6' 6", Marc is 5' 6".

This match was a lot like a wolverine fighting a bear.

Marc used his speed and mobility to negate Scooter's reach and Scooter used his positioning to negate Marc's speed. It was a hellova good fight! Marc won by one point.

I was really happy to see the sportsmanship the the three of them exhibited in these two fights. The all gave 100%, did everything they could to defeat each other, and were still best friends at the end of the day

This put Marc in the fight for first place.

His opponent was Bill, a friend of mine with about 12 years experience in Kuntaw. Bill is smart, with a lot of ring savvy and is a superb fighter with one of the best teachers in the country. He actually trained with my guys for this tournament, so he and Marc have had a good friendship developing over the last few months.

The round started and both of them dug deep for that extra reserve. This was the fifth fight for both of them.

It was a wild fight. Neither of them gave an inch, neither of them slowed for a moment. Bill is bigger by far and older than Marc, Marc is faster. At one point I thought the sticks might catch on fire just from the friction of the hits.

When the match ended and the dust settled, the judges counted the points and Bill took the fight by one point.

There may have been some moment in my life where I have been happier, but I can't think of when just now.

As Marc accepted the second place prize he looked a bit like he was not sure how he got there.

Marc is an example of what can happen when you are willing to throw out outmoded training methods and rethink what you are doing.

He went in a year from someone who did not think that he had any athletic ability or skill in fighting to a Silat player who looked (and won) like he had been training five years or more.

This would not be possible without RMAX technology to cut through the traditional mess that has accumulated in martial arts. Conventional wisdom says that it takes as much as ten years to gain basic proficiency in Pencak Silat. Direct experience shows me that with the right approach and a willingness to think outside the box I can accomplish this with a student in more like two years.

This experience is not limited to just Marc. As the participants lined up at the end of the day for the stick fighting and other awards The first through seventh places were held by Bill, my five direct students, and my training partner Steve Van Harn's son Cole. That is seven for seven players who have incorporated CST in their training.

A couple of days before the tournament I called Scott to let him know what was going on with the event. I told him that if we did as well as I expected us to, it would be as much his doing as mine. Well, we did and it is. I couldn't have pulled this off without you Scott.


RMAX ROCKS!

[sames]

Great report and an outstanding job by the competitors (and their instructor)! Its great that a competition appeared when you needed one. Life works.

[Chuck Kechter]

Very cool!

Congrats to all!

[BmCoomes]

Great! I've been eagerly waiting to hear how things have been going.

Do you mind going into some detail on the routine. Like the Clubbell stuff you used, and the mobility in place of stance.

I'd love to see all the geek stuff you have I'm just like that.

Plus it provides a good model for apply CST/RMAX to your martial arts.

Plus you’re right RMAX ROCKS!!

Thanks,

[SteveB]

That tournament was a hell of a laboratory for testing training theories. Can't wait to see what happens after you boil down and integrate. Congratulations!

[Joseph David]

Great report Mushtaq !

[vvvooo]

Great to hear of your success in coaching and the accomplishments of your students.
:thumbup1:
Thanks for sharing and congratulations.

[mushtaq]

For anyone interested, I have a writeup of the tournament on my Blog (http://tracelesswarrior.blogspot.com/). It is written mostly from the perspective of me watching my students and friends (with diverse comments on things philosophical) but might be of interest, and it has several pictures as well.

enjoy, more soon.

[Buddy]

Recently returned and good to read of your success in this monumental endeavor, Mushtaq!