Unhappiness in your Martial Art

[KimaMule]

I have been practicing Hung Gar Gung Fu for a good portion of my life and a little history is that I was taken under my Sifu's wing, learned at an accelerated rate since I was disciplined enough and had the time, that's all I would do. I would wake up everyday, practice Gung Fu, go to Gung Fu Class, Practice afterward, go to sleep, rinse and repeat. Now people started complaining that I was learning things that they haven't when I hadn't even been there as long as they have. So long story short crap hit the fan things were said that weren't true and it was such a negative atmosphere I left.

Now I tried to come back but it still left to much of a negative experience for me and I had a run in with a classmate that everyone had problems with and the Sifu let stay (imo because he paid more money for private lessons) that I decided to screw it and move to Seattle for school. All this took place in Bellingham btw.

Now I've still practiced and kept up with what I know and traveled to Bellingham every now and then to learn but now I am sick and tired of all of it. My martial art doesn't make me happy anymore, the majority of the time I don't want to do it and sometimes I enjoy it, but most of the time I just don't and it pains me because I've done it for most of my life and now it sucks because I don't know WHAT i want to do anymore and there are so many things I really WANT to do but I just don't have the motivation to do anything and basically I've been in this slump for quite a bit of months now and I'm depressed all the time. It's tough to drop what's been comfortable for such a long time and venture down new horizons.

For me now, I really want to become a FlowFighting Rmax Powered Athlete just because everything and everyone is so great and it looks like everything that is lacking in my martial art not to include most martial arts. If anybody in the Seattle area wants to connect to get together to create an Informal Training group a few days a week or more would be great.

[Jarlo Ilano]

Listen man, you need to watch your language.

[KimaMule]

Sorry, i edited out the two swear words. Didn't even think about it when I was writing it. Didn't mean that to be the summarization of all that I said and meant in the post. Just looking for a little help and advice that's all.

Thanks.

[Glenn Sunshine]

Depending on why you are studying martial arts, Flowfighting may be the best choice for you, but if you like Chinese martial culture there are lots of other good options that your Hung Gar background could help you with. IIRC Hung Gar is a southern style, Tiger-Crane focus, right? I would be surprised if there weren't good kung fu schools in the Seattle area; you might even find one progressive enough to allow you to incorporate CST principles into your training, though that's admittedly a long shot. As always, though, the first thing you need to do is decide why you want to study, what is it about Hung Gar that fed that desire, and what are your best options now to accomplish your goals. After that, you can make a better decision.

[Christopher]

Sounds like what I've been going through with my BJJ training or lack thereof latley.I got burned out and now I think about going back but the couple of times I did I didnt enjoy very much anymore.
Now I dont know what to do.

[KimaMule]

Lol. Yeah it sucks doesn't it. Been 'thinking' of Rmax Powering it but i don't know. Hung Gar or Tiger & Crane Gung Fu is really traditional and relys on forms for knowledge, there's like 38 + forms. So maybe take the forms out of it? I don't know.

[janet lee]

As always, though, the first thing you need to do is decide why you want to study, what is it about Hung Gar that fed that desire, and what are your best options now to accomplish your goals. After that, you can make a better decision.

Thanks for that reminder! As I'm evaluating my own dissatisfaction with the MA I've been devoted to for a long time, I'm trying to examine what now seems missing for me. What is that I have loved, and still do, about it? How will I still feed those hungers? Trying to be as specific as possible in setting my intentions makes a successful outcome more likely. I want to make sure I'm not running away from something because I bumped up against a challenge, but rather am consciously choosing a proper alternative based on new goals/desires. That's just me though.

Good luck, Tyler, in figuring it out for yourself. Though I'm very new here myself, I can say the discussions on this forum help alot. There are many wise and generous people who can support your efforts.

_________________
Janet Zahn

[Glenn Sunshine]

Lol. Yeah it sucks doesn't it. Been 'thinking' of Rmax Powering it but i don't know. Hung Gar or Tiger & Crane Gung Fu is really traditional and relys on forms for knowledge, there's like 38 + forms. So maybe take the forms out of it? I don't know.

Forms aren't the enemy; they're a kind of kinetic chain. Thinking about them differently, training them differently, understanding and practicing the tricks ("techniques") encoded in the forms, all can improve their utility. Ultimately, the form is a tool to teach you a style of movement and a type of energy. RMAXing them would involve working with them to unlock your potential to express that energy and style of movement. It's a different mindset from Flowfighting, but it's also different from how most people train TMA. If the goal is to fight Hung Gar style, you need the forms; if the goal is to fight Hung Gar Tyler style, you still need the forms but you need to individualize them and make them your own--renovating the style. That's where RMAX can help you. I've given a little thought to how this might work, but I don't have the time to get into it right now. I'll try to post something later, maybe in a different thread.

[KimaMule]

I've been giving it a lot of thought and here's my theory:

Like you said forms are a kind of kinetic chain. Now I know all the hand forms and most of the weapon forms in Hung Gar and when you come to an understanding of them you can break them apart.

Now forms are like a kinetic chain of certain techniques/movements/exercises whatever but say you break apart the forms and individualize the techniques and train them like you would say a boxer trains his uppercut or cross, etc... Maybe some progress can be done...

Cause for me now, I've trained so hard for so long I can really do the forms and I can do them low, meaning thigh parrallel to the ground all through the form the whole time without rising. All they do for me now is give me a workout, I have to throw on some Iron Rings to make it more difficult but for me now I'm burnt out on forms. I'm done at least for the meanwhile till I figure out what to do.

Now lemme give you an example. I've broken it down to this...

You got your Five Animals and their individual forms...

TIGER... Tiger Claw, Tiger's Paw
CRANE... Crane's Wing, Crane's Beak, Crane's Head, Crane's Crown
SNAKE... Snake Hand
LEOPARD... Leopard Fist
DRAGON... more ambiguous, anything really requiring a twisting motion with the waist.

the extras....

MANTIS... Mantis Claw
DRUNKEN MAN... Drunken Hand

Now you got your Elements

FIRE... anything involving a straight punch (Not a flat fist, thumb up)
METAL... a heavy downward blocking motion with either one or two hands with closed fists
EARTH... exactly the opposite coming from the ground up with back parrallel to ground
WATER... Water Cast which is a swinging motion with elbows locked and closed fists
WOOD... Anything involving two simultaneous hits with both arms accompanied with a turning of the waist.

which are all variations of using a FIST

Then you got your Fist forms...

Straight Punch, Cross, etc along with the not so common ones, Iron Door Jam Punch, Eight Drunken Immortals, etc...

You got your 10 Killing Hands...

Your 8 Bridge Hands

Then you got your Elbows...

and that's about it...

A lot of these technique or Tiger, Snake, Fist Variations at its core if you follow me.


Now I hate the word technique. I hate it, it blocked me for so long until one day i just started improvising everything and I saw that what was once "Tiger Descends Mountain" was really just a Tiger Claw movement when it comes down to it. Same with the Crane movements and like the Snake, the snake was really just an open hand or palm.

So back to my theory is training these like a boxer would train them... what do you think?

Train the Tiger Claw and improvise with it, then throw in some "technical variations" (i.e. Tiger Exits Cave, etc... ) to program proper form along with all the other hands.


Now I love how Scott broke down FlowFighting into Softwork-Hardwork. Now also at it's core each of the hands can be soft and they can be hard. Train through improvisation what you can do with them either being hard or soft...

I don't know what do you think Glen?

Also the problem with TMA is that when your are given a technique the students when going to "apply" the technique PERFORM the technique rather then DO the technique. Train the techniques/motions/expressions/ whatever you want to call them that way.


Also I want to fight my way, I don't want to limit myself. That's a lot of the reason why I want to learn Flow Fighting because it's all based on improvisation and principles that I firmly believe in. But there's just no one to practice here in Seattle, at least not yet. Any advice on trying to get one together? Also I have a thing about say if the person hasn't "rehabed" himself with Intu-Flow etc will that person be able to still learn Flow Fighting from Day One effectively? I also need to get my *** excuse me butt to a FlowFighting Seminar, but I'm a broke waiting/hoping to get into college with no job student.

[Coach Flanagan]

Tyler,

Joel Seymour and Brian Bentz (both of which are CST instructors) are in Seattle. They train informally with Soheil John Ward in Bellingham. If I were you I'd get in touch with them.

[KimaMule]

I have. Contacted Brian, hopefully we can after the holiday season. I first learned Clubbells from Soheil. I know they train on Saturdays but I have class on Saturdays ): Contacted Joel and also KD Jones still haven't got a response. If there is anybody else out there in Seattle let me know or anywhere close!

[Glenn Sunshine]

OK, let's take a look at this. I'm not a coach and I may be totally off--when the coaching staff gets back, hopefully they'll correct me where I've gone wrong--but here goes:

Let's say you want to work tiger claw. There are forms that use it, plus a bunch of specific techniques I'd imagine. Think about it using a softwork to hardwork continuum. Take the first element in the form, where you know the application. Start practicing the application with a partner as a prearranged static drill. Then start adding more "friction" to the drill--speed, variations in the starting technique, movement, etc. This moves you up the continuum toward hardwork. Repeat with other techniques, and end with a free sparring period where you can use anything you've worked on as part of what you're doing.

Another variation would be to take a cluster of tiger claw techniques and do them all as static drills, then begin adding the variables and friction so that you are forced to use different techniques (modified to the situation) as you move up the continuum.

By the way, in TCMA every motion has multiple meanings: the same technique that looks like a punch is also a block/deflection and a grappling technique, frequently an escape. So work those variations as well from static through fluid and dynamic drills, soft to hard.

This isn't too far from what some TMA masters advocate as a way to internalize and personalize an art. It's something like learning a language: you get the basics down, but the only way to really learn it is to play with it and use it in different contexts, so that you eventually improvise with it. RMAX has a more systematic analysis and approach to it, of course, but that's what makes it a useful tool for renovating a traditional style.

[KimaMule]

Yeah that's what I was kind of thinking something similar to that. Also techniques in kung fu do have multiple applications, I understand that but for me I guess I haven't done flow fighting but it seems to FREE and theres gotta be someway to use the techniques like that but not in so much a technical or intellectual standpoint if you know what I mean which hinders a lot of students. For me I am sick of tired of doing forms and just having to carry around the information in general especially Hung Gar with over 38+ that's a lot to carry around and plus the system of Hung Gar is too limiting. There's a lot of stuff I want to do for instance, Hung Gar doesn't teach grappling, joint locking etc... Although they do have a "grappling" hand and Joint locks are found with in the sets but it's not free you have to go in there and find what move is in there, but the thing I don't like about learning like that anymore it's too hindering, it's based on a certain technique of that system not like i guess mechanics of the body and understanding how to do it with intuition rather than blinding yourself by trying to PULL OFF a technique. I don't know that's the kinds of things I struggle with. There's gotta be a way though and also another thing that hits my mind is there are probably a billion other "Tiger Claw" techniques in other systems so in order for me to be "complete" I have to know every single Tiger Claw technique. There's gotta be a simpler way if you catch my drift.

Food for thought. Over on my end my head keeps brewing. I know I like the system but I can't figure out if I like the system for what it looks like externally anymore, and ego problem, or if I REALLY enjoy doing it anymore. I'm not a very traditional person so I think that's creeping in to the things I do and how I percieve and grow as I age. I don't know. Hehe

[Glenn Sunshine]

The question is, then, are you really interested in renovating Hung Gar, or are you interested in doing something different? Your Hung Gar will never leave you--it'll be expressed in different ways even in Flowfighting I suspect--but if it's not what you want to do, don't do it, don't renovate it, just move on and uncover your own style.

[KimaMule]

Yeah, I think that's what I want to do at least for right now then come back to it later. Just need to find people in my area interested and willing to commit if you know what i mean.

[Coach Billew]

Tyler,

This is a tough place to be. I know have been there at a few different points in my life with different arts.

Glenn started to get at this, and I think we need to go back to it.

What do you want from martial arts?

Not what do you want from Hung Gar or Flowfighting. But what in martial arts matters to you, and keep in mind that if you think on this for a few days it may turn out to be rather different than what you thought it was. When we have been doing something for a long time we often get stuck in an old image of it, and we need to reassess our current needs and goals.

As with all things RMAX before we can really help you, and before you can help yourself, you need to clearly define for yourself what your goals are with your martial arts practice.

[KD Jones]

When we have been doing something for a long time we often get stuck in an old image of it, and we need to reassess our current needs and goals.

A wolf's statement, in sheep's clothing. It's a scary question to answer, which is why it often doesn't get answered.

I remember hearing once about a woman who had spent her entire remembered life playing the flute, at a very high level - concert-level, 6-hours-practice-a-day (not counting the additional mental and listening work) type stuff. With that kind of investment, a person tends to identify themselves as being what they do. In her case, her being was labelled flutist. The instrument was, as is common with this and other endeavors at this level, part of her body, her mind. It was her organic voice.

Except when the question "what do I want from music" had to be answered. She had the guts to face the question head on, and the answer was... something other than I can get from the flute. Where she went from there I don't remember, but the pure guts of the process is the point. I really think it's something like standing naked in a Montana hailstorm.

The problem is that even when an old way no longer serves us, the familiarity, attachment - even love - is still there. And that's fine, and probably as it should be, because the fix is not to deny the past, but to... reinterpret it? embody it? fulfill it? Something like that.

Most folks I've seen faced with this question have found a way to avoid it. I've done it a number of times. But in my thinking, the effects of not dealing with the question, even in a situation that "doesn't seem like a life and death thing" at the time" are addressed by a line from "The Year of Living Dangerously": "Their faces stare out at me. People who will become other people. People who will become old, betray their dreams, become ghosts."

All that just to say, I think Coach Billews statement goes barefoot into the desert, with necessity and purpose...

[Coach Jones]

Tyler,

Like Slade says, "It's a tough place to be" but it can also be a great place. It's the perfect catalyst for identifying what it is you want to get from the martial art you have chosen to practice.

Martial arts are like tools in a tool box. You can get a starter set or spend the time and money acquiring a full proffesional's set of tools. Whichever set you have, you still won't necessarily be able to build a house.

People like to believe that specific martial arts will, for example, teach them to fight. Truthfully, it's not the case. They can show you tools, but you have to learn how to apply those tools in fighting. Separate skills.

It does all depend on what you want to get out of your training.

[janet lee]

The problem is that even when an old way no longer serves us, the familiarity, attachment - even love - is still there. And that's fine, and probably as it should be, because the fix is not to deny the past, but to... reinterpret it? embody it? fulfill it? Something like that.



What I'm attempting to do as I examine the old way that doesn't serve, is to acknowledge that the past is what brought me to the moment I'm at now and be grateful for that. Maybe not even view it as a fix of something that's broken, but as the next evolutionary spiral ready to happen. And also to remember that the comfort of doing "the known" well is a trade-off for the exhileration of going into the unknown zones. Still doesn't make that "shedding" process comfortable though...

__________
Janet Zahn

[KimaMule]

Ironic as it is but something happened last night that reminded me why I started martial arts. To defend myself and teach others to do the same and protect our families. What happened last night was I guess some black lady smashed the window of a car across the street and ran off. That's it but it got me pumped and thinking what happened if that happened to me. What I am lacking in my training right now is first motivation and second sociality or whatever you want to call it. I left my school and just pretty much train by myself. Well I took a break and am still on my break to reevaluate my training situation. First I was overtraining and second, didn't know what for. And writing this I discovered I want to focus more on all the dynamics of hand to hand combat. My training right now really consists of digging to discover more and more but it sucks cause when I discover something I don't have anyone to apply it against. And what my training also consists of is just learning traditional weapons, I've finished all the hand forms. I'm never going to pick up a Quan Do (Horse Cutter) and enter "battle" with it LOL. I don't know. Right now I feel that I really want to finish the curriculum but I can so at a later date. I really want to be an Rmax Powered Athlete and learn FlowFighting and instruct in that. I know I need to get my butt to a FlowFighting Seminar but I just don't have the money and I really want to attend the Scott Sonnon's Sambo seminar but can't afford it. I guess my best thing would be trying right now is to start a Training Group but have had no luck with finding people.

[JayBell]

Ironic as it is but something happened last night that reminded me why I started martial arts. To defend myself and teach others to do the same and protect our families. What happened last night was I guess some black lady smashed the window of a car across the street and ran off. That's it but it got me pumped and thinking what happened if that happened to me. What I am lacking in my training right now is first motivation and second sociality or whatever you want to call it. I left my school and just pretty much train by myself. Well I took a break and am still on my break to reevaluate my training situation. First I was overtraining and second, didn't know what for. And writing this I discovered I want to focus more on all the dynamics of hand to hand combat. My training right now really consists of digging to discover more and more but it sucks cause when I discover something I don't have anyone to apply it against. And what my training also consists of is just learning traditional weapons, I've finished all the hand forms. I'm never going to pick up a Quan Do (Horse Cutter) and enter "battle" with it LOL. I don't know. Right now I feel that I really want to finish the curriculum but I can so at a later date. I really want to be an Rmax Powered Athlete and learn FlowFighting™ and instruct in that. I know I need to get my butt to a FlowFighting™ Seminar but I just don't have the money and I really want to attend the Scott Sonnon's Sambo seminar but can't afford it. I guess my best thing would be trying right now is to start a Training Group but have had no luck with finding people.

Find some patience inside. Slow down...even though you have a desire to grab the goals *now*, accept the fact that you can't and pace yourself. Start with the books/videos/cb's that you can afford a piece at a time...and go from there. When I had serious financial problems, I set up an account at the bank and put a small amount of money per paycheck into it. When I had enough to buy whatever new book/dvd, etc, I'd do it then.

Sometimes we get overwhelmed with the amount of knowledge here and want to shove 6 videos down our throat at the same time from the excitment...but taking the time to really explore one source is a great thing while saving up for the next.

[Coach Jones]

Absolutely!

Take it one step at a time and focus on your CST practice. Beyond that, finding an RMAX training group shouldn't be all that difficult. Have you been to the training partner locator yet?

[KimaMule]

Ya, i know. That's exactly me I want to shove it all in. I'm currently am focusing solely on CST right now and learning all the movements from the Body Flow DVD and all the Flows from the Prasara DVD and also working on my density cycle right now. And right now I'm watching the Softwork and Hardwork DVDs and breaking them down onto Word. Sort of like an outline of each drill.

I have been to the training partner locator section but no responses as of yet.

[KD Jones]

Ya, i know. That's exactly me I want to shove it all in. I'm currently am focusing solely on CST right now and learning all the movements from the Body Flow DVD and all the Flows from the Prasara DVD and also working on my density cycle right now. And right now I'm watching the Softwork and Hardwork DVDs and breaking them down onto Word. Sort of like an outline of each drill.

I have been to the training partner locator section but no responses as of yet.

Tyler...

The approach you're taking is admirable in it's discipline and thoroughness. I respect it.

I'm trying to work out something to get back to you with regard to getting together. Sorry I've been so out of the loop... I'll talk to you soon via PM.