Coach Jones: Recent UFC Striking?

[Stefan Dahlstet]

Happy Thanksgiving, Coach Jones!

I know you've been pretty critical of the general striking ability in the UFC, and for the most part I agree. I don't have nearly the same experience or skill as you do in stand-up, but I'm curious if you watched the last couple UFC's, and if you did, what did you think Anderson Silva and Georges St. Pierre? While the other fights weren't especially impressive, I thought those two did excellent, and completely picked apart their competition. I would really be interested in your analysis.

Thanks,

Stefan

[Vbrown]

I'm not Coach Jones nor do I speak for him. Just wanted the disclaimer up there.

Good strikers (I've only see St. Pierre in your example) are spotted easily because of how differently they move and address their opponents. The strikes come out of an intent to USE them as part of an arsenal as opposed to a holding strategy.

The trap I personally fall into is I don't blend my training, so when I strike, I do it from trying to leverage every advantage that skill. Which in the big picture, can set me up for trouble if I were to do MMA. So when I analyize MMA strikers, I do it from that flawed lense.

Which is why I am REALLY looking forward to attending FlowBox to give me new perspective and new methods of training that will allow me to use my skills better and in a bigger context.

Also realize that Coach Jones might not be comfortable critiquing specific fighters skills in a public forum.

Just thinking outload I guess. Hope it was useful.

[KD Jones]

The trap I personally fall into is I don't blend my training, so when I strike, I do it from trying to leverage every advantage that skill.

Grok defecit, here.

Do you mean that, when you strike, you go "into striking mode," and OUT of every other mode, leaving the attributes that come to you by way of other stylistic trainging beyond your reach temporarily?

If that's what you're saying, I'm guessing that you're not alone. True synthesis - in any endeavor - is much less common than is generally imagined.

Bla bla bla, says me.

[Coach Jones]

Stefan,

I continue to be highly critial of the striking in MMA, but before I give you my opinion I just want to say that at the same time I have the utmost respect for MMA athletes (well...most anyway);)

They step up and put it on the line, and for that alone I feel they deserve their props.

However, with any athlete, there is always room for improvement and in MMA the striking stands out as being the weakest link in most fighter's game.

I agree with Vince, I woulsn't put Anderson Silva in the category of a good striker. He's gotten some good results, but that doesn't equate to being a good striker. Just means you were better that day than your opponent.

Good striking is an amalgum of many things...

Simply swinging for the fences doesn't make one a good striker, but it can yield results if the opponent is worse than you are.

GSP is, in my view, the best striker in the UFC at the moment. (Watch for more big thangs from Josh Koschek as well. )He actually TRAINS his striking. When you watch most MMA athletes train they TRAIN their grappling and play at striking. Grab a training partner and work drills and roll. Have a purpose and a performance goal. Then go hit the heavy bag. Maybe go crazy and hit a speed bag and for the truly dedicated even the double end bag.

Then on to the mitts.

One of my pet peeves is when I watch fighters train and I hear someone ask if another person will "hold the mitts". You don't "hold the mitts"! You work the fighter with the mitts.

If a coach isn't tired after working a fighter on the mitts, either they're working with a beginner or they're not worth their salt....just my opinion.

(those attending the Flowbox seminar are going to find this out soon;) )

When they showed Matt Hughes training his striking, they showed him in a room full of athletes. In my opinion he was training his "hitting" not his striking.

Where was the ring generalship? Where was the evasive movement?

A pedestrian view of striking is that it's about hitting. This would be like saying that grappling is all about the choke. Striking is about stealing your opponents will. Taking away all of his weapons until he is so far down he performance spiral that he's just waiting to be beaten. It's movement, structure and breathing (where have we heard that before?).

[ryandalcampbelll]

This is really interesting but I'm not so convinced about GSP's striking. He is certainly very very good but as to being the best in the UFC I'm not so sure. I watched the Penn GSP fight again and even before the eye poke (about a minute and a half into the fight) Penn is making mincemeat of GSP especially with his left hand.HI movement angles and set ups are what seperates the two.

Now I know GSP went on to win that fight which under UFC rules he did (under Pride rules which gives points for damage done to the opponent he lost by a mile) but he really lost the striking battle there.

I'd put Penn above GSP still in terms of ability with the caveat that in terms of mental conditioning GSP seems far stonger.

But hey just my opinion.

[Vbrown]

GSP is very good (in comparison to the company he keeps). But like Coach Jones said, you need to be the best the day of your fight, not in general.

Penn's training is similar to GSP's in that he TRAINS his striking. No just hitting harder.

It's a strong observation that just training how to hit hard is like learning to load ammunition but never firing a gun. Angles, motion, timing, B/M/S....

[Coach Jones]

I totally agree there. The only reason I didn't mention Penn as well is that I don't feel at this point we'd be talking about the same Penn versus the same GSP, if that makes sense.

[SAB]

so....um....about that Flowbox DVD ?.... :D

[Coach Jones]

Very VERY soon;)

It's been a long time coming but filming wraps up in two weeks. I wanted to make sure that Flowbox would stand out in terms of quality, information and accesibility.

I guarantee it will be all that and then some.

It's coming...soon!

[LEO4HIM]

Will the FlowBox DVD be a good "intro" (I'm sure it's so much more!) for someone with ZERO boxing skill?

[Coach Jones]

Chad,

Absolutely!

The design is specifically tailored to begin from scratch.

First thing out of the gate is Foundational Mechanics. Those with little to no experience will be able to jump right in and start learning not only how to throw efficient and effective punches but also WHY and WHAT makes them so.

Those with experience will be able to "take it back to formula". Nothing will be lossed from previous training, but Flowbox will provide a new template. It's hard for people who have experience to shed ideas and concepts that have worked for them in the past.

"Taking it back to formula" doesn't mean throwing everything away, but putting some of our old training dogma aside and approaching the same goal from a different angle. Starting from scratch, but bringing to the table all of our experiences. Cleaning the slate of old BAD habits and engraining new ones.

Beyond that, Flowbox will address taking this foundation and adressing it specifically to increase useable and transferable speed and power.

Movement, breathing and structure to maximize performance. Ring Generalship - how, why, when and how to control the ring.

Along the way we'll destroy some pervasive strength building and cardio myths and show you a better and smarter way to train.

We'll cover bagwork of every type imaginable and how to progress from learning and improving the quality of your tools to working the bags dynamically.

Sparring, following the Softwork to Hardwork continuum will be covered in depth. Beginners and veterans alike will be able to skyrocket their performance in all areas of striking with the hands and upper architecture.

Flowbox is RMAX Powered Next Generation Boxing.

"Next Generation" refers to the current need to integrate good, sound striking skill into a variety of venues...

Boxing
Kickboxing and Muay Thai
Lei Tai, Kuoshu and San Shou
MMA
and...
Boxing as Martial Art

All of these venues will be addressed and ALL are presented through the lens and filter of the most result producing training system on the planet...CST and RMAX!!

It's coming soon!

[StuMcD]

Awesome stuff Coach. Flowbox sounds like the resource I have been waiting for.

Back to UFC striking, I would have to put my vote in for Jens Pulver at lightweight. Sure his integration of tools other than his hands needs work, and sure he got knocked out by a debutant in his last appearance, but Jens has stood with fighters such as Takanori Gomi and held his own. No other fighter at 155 strikes as well as he does with the exception of an in-shape BJ Penn. (not to mention that the UFC is like the minor leagues compared to Pride)

At 170 (If we are going to call BJ a 155er), I'd have to go with Georges. He wins standing engagements with footwork which is rare in MMA in the extreme.

At 185, I go with Anderson Silva. This guy is one of the strongest strikers for his weight in the game. I can't think of anyone else even close to his level of skill. He hasn't really had much chance to showcase himself in the UFC so if you have never seen him in Pride, you haven't seen anything yet.

At 205, Chuck Liddell rules the roost. His form in pure boxing terms is terrible but you can't argue with his results. He beat Randy with a very clever change in tactics that was so marked that he finished a legend in the sport who had never been knocked out very quickly indeed.

At heavy, I'd have to go with Arlovski. The guy needs to learn when to take the fight to the ground, but this particular problem has nothing to do with his fighting ability. Smooth, very smooth, especially for a heavyweight. I am hanging out for his return. Hopefully he will arm himself with a more effective Silvia-specific game plan for when he fights his way back to contention.

Thoughts?
Stu.

[SAB]

The design is specifically tailored to begin from scratch.

First thing out of the gate is Foundational Mechanics. Those with little to no experience will be able to jump right in and start learning not only how to throw efficient and effective punches but also WHY and WHAT makes them so.

Those with experience will be able to "take it back to formula". Nothing will be lossed from previous training, but Flowbox will provide a new template. It's hard for people who have experience to shed ideas and concepts that have worked for them in the past.

"Taking it back to formula" doesn't mean throwing everything away, but putting some of our old training dogma aside and approaching the same goal from a different angle. Starting from scratch, but bringing to the table all of our experiences. Cleaning the slate of old BAD habits and engraining new ones.

Beyond that, Flowbox will address taking this foundation and adressing it specifically to increase useable and transferable speed and power.

Movement, breathing and structure to maximize performance. Ring Generalship - how, why, when and how to control the ring.

Along the way we'll destroy some pervasive strength building and cardio myths and show you a better and smarter way to train.

We'll cover bagwork of every type imaginable and how to progress from learning and improving the quality of your tools to working the bags dynamically.

Sparring, following the Softwork to Hardwork continuum will be covered in depth. Beginners and veterans alike will be able to skyrocket their performance in all areas of striking with the hands and upper architecture.

Flowbox is RMAX Powered Next Generation Boxing.

"Next Generation" refers to the current need to integrate good, sound striking skill into a variety of venues...

Boxing
Kickboxing and Muay Thai
Lei Tai, Kuoshu and San Shou
MMA
and...
Boxing as Martial Art

All of these venues will be addressed and ALL are presented through the lens and filter of the most result producing training system on the planet...CST and RMAX!!

It's coming soon!

Wow! That sounds amazing.
Awesome news, can't wait !!

[Coach Flanagan]

Jeesh Brandon, whats that gonna be, a 10 DVD set?:eek:

[Shane]

What specifically do you think is weak about the striking in MMA?

Thanks,
Shane

[Coach Flanagan]

http://www.rmaxinternational.com/44/jones.html

[Coach Jones]

Shane,

The article Sean linked should explain my opinion more. For the purposes of this thread i'll throw this in as well...

Basically, the problem with striking in MMA is in essence the same issue that competitors had in the early UFC days in regard to their grappling. You had a lot of strikers who never practiced takedowns or takedown defenses. Those that did practiced against other strikers. While that was better than no training, it didn't prepare them even remotely for defensing against a takedown from a good grappler.

Now that people understand that grappling is a necessary part of MMA, everyone practices and hones their grappling. This raised the bar on the grappling but also allowed striking to come back into the picture as well.

For the most part, the striking game in MMA is very pedestrian. Their strategy is to exchange blows and swing for the fences. The biggest aspect that is lacking aside of being efficient is movement and ring generalship.

When a grappler watches grappling they see nuances that the average fan doesn't catch. Subtle shifts in weight, setting up the opponent and causing them to make a mistake that they can capitalize on. Like a chess match.

Striking is no different. There are just as many subtleties and nuances and it's just as much of a chess match when performed well. Unfortunately, what we tend to get in MMA at the moment isn't on that level.

You don't have to takemy word for it. Watch any clips of almost any pro MMA fighter training their striking. Then, walk in to your local boxing gym and watch the amateur fighters train. The discrepancy is huge and remember, those boxers are amateurs.

This isn't to say that they would excell at MMA. Not remotely.It does show however, in stark detail the difference in skill level in the area of striking.

The two sports are different and the tools for boxing need to be adjusted in order to make them workable within the MMA environment. That's one of the focuses of Flowbox.

[bejustintime]

A pedestrian view of striking is that it's about hitting. This would be like saying that grappling is all about the choke. Striking is about stealing your opponents will. Taking away all of his weapons until he is so far down he performance spiral that he's just waiting to be beaten. It's movement, structure and breathing (where have we heard that before?).

I just want to quote this because it is something I have experienced from a FMA master, but he did not explain what he was doing. Several times he "volunteered" me to demonstrate some empty hand techniques. Each time he hit my forearms with some kind of nerve strikes, creating pain and made it tougher for me to defend myself. And I went down the spiral. He would then proceed to fold me like a pretzel, and finish me ala "mortal combat".

I am starting to understand now how it is movement, structure, and breathing. Being a boxing novice, it is really a challenge learning to relax (and thus be aware of the opponents' breath, motion, and structure).

I can't wait for the seminar. Hasta manana amigos!

[Shane]

"The two sports are different and the tools for boxing need to be adjusted in order to make them workable within the MMA environment".

So very true and I am happy to see that you are going
to address that.

I do some things while I am boxing that I do not do while I am
kickboxing or MMA. I get your point about the finer points of
standup fighting largley missing in MMA. I was working with some
guys at a local MMA gym. I was going over how to use footwork to
move people into your punches and kicks and it was the first time
any of these guys had ever been taught that, and this was a group
of amatuer and pro MMA fighters. Thanks for the response to my
post and I look foward to seeing your DVD's.

Thanks,
Shane

[HereBeADragon]

just wanted to add a little report to this topic. Last night I was at the king of the cage fights at Soboba casino and I was absolutely stunned how terrible the standup fighting was. Coach Jones has hit the nail right on the head about the problem with these guys. I swear anyone with a good straight lead and a decent cross could knock the majority of these guys out. Its so predictable its almost funny. Every fight the same thing. A couple of haymakers and then one guy shoots in on the other usually leaving his head completley exposed for a knockout punch if his opponent knew how to exploit it. A boxing coach could really help most of these fighters. Weak, wild and telegraphed strikes thrown with no strategy other than to get close enough to shoot for the legs and often thrown WAY over extended and with no stable base.

[KD Jones]

The other effect of this is curious...

The lack of proficient "striking" (would boxing be a better general term?) seems to lead further to the belief that IF a person were to become a proficient enough "striker," they will always and everywhere be able to avoid being taken down.

I've been party to that school of thought, having been told - from the standpoint of a striker - that "fights don't go to the ground unless both fighters want them to," and similar other bits.

Please know that I am NOT arguing the old nonsense that "90 percent of everthing that happens under heaven goes to the ground," because I'm pretty sure that's nonsense as well (see Coach Sonnon's recent article on "Tools," re "going to the ground," HERE (http://www.rmaxinternational.com/forum/showthread.php?t=13296).)

It just seems to me that this is another example of the way a defecit in one area leads to confusion and distortion in another. (Man. Didn't realize until after I'd wrtitten it how CST that would sound...)

[lorenzodamarith]

hello,

necromancy here...

the button that says "here" doesn't seem to work. does the article mentioned still exist? if so, where?

thanks

[Coach Haggard]

Nice thread. I always get pulled in to reading if Coach Jones is talking boxing :D.

I saw a couple of you guys in Northern Cali looking forward to FlowBox. We have enough people that the FlowBox seminars are happening monthly now. December is planned (the 6th) and I am putting together January already. I will have a date for that in a couple of weeks at the outside if everything goes well. If you want to join us and haven't contacted me yet, send me a PM (include your email address if you would...it makes it easier for me :) ). I will put you on the list for updates. We have a lot of fun. Four hours seems to fly by when you are playing with the FlowBox stuff. We are even starting to get some interest from out of State now.

BTW, these seminars also help control the craving while you are waiting for the DVD's to come out ;)

-Dennis

[rutherford]

hello,

necromancy here...

the button that says "here" doesn't seem to work. does the article mentioned still exist? if so, where?

thanks

There used to be a publicly viewable forum for member articles, many of which were published in back issues of RMAX magazine. I believe they are now only viewable by members of the Core Cadre.

[lorenzodamarith]

hello,

appreciate it rutherford. can you give a "nutshell" version of the article in question?

thanks