warrior wellness, feldenkrias connection

[phc]

Ocassionally I will do a search on the web for clubbell or some rmax related term to get other points of view on the system. I do have to say most are quiet favorable as I would expect. My last search brought me to a review on the warrior wellness book. In this review the individual claimed that coach Sonnon feels that this is the next level of Feldenkrias training. I have had some favorable experience with feldenkrias in the past and I'm currious did coach Sonnon train in the Feldenkrias method and if so what would he consider to be the similarities and differences between the systems? Finally how does warrior welness or intuflow or prasara take this type of mind/body training one step further? One last thing Feldenkrias is sometimes used as a form of body work. Does Coach ever see any of his systems evolving into a bodywork system in the future?

Rich

[Coach Bentz]

Hey Rich,

Do you have the link to the article you're referring to? (Did you mean the Warrior wellness video? Or the Bodyflow book? To my knowledge there's no book for WW)

I don't suspect we'll see a bodywork system evolving from CST. One of the finest aspects of CST is when used as pre-habilitation. To prepare your body for activity, to incrementally and safely help you explore the limits of your range of motion, so that when your life events or your activities thrust you to those ranges, your body is more prepared to do it.
Here (http://www.rmaxinternational.com/forum/showthread.php?t=13279)and there (http://www.rmaxinternational.com/forum/showthread.php?p=102292#post102292) are a couple good articles along those lines.

We're not out there to rehabilitate or do bodywork. There are big branches of medicine and alternative health care practices that are specialized, licensed and otherwise prepared to do that work. CST fits in best in preparing the body to avoid injury, and if injury happens, after being treated and approved by a medical professional for an exercise program.

[James Boelter]

Back to the original question: I did some basic Feldenkrais classes back in college, read "Awareness Through Movement" and "The Potent Self" and played around with it quite a bit for years. IMO, Feldenkrais is a potent tool for relaxation and stress relief. However, it does not really help the student make the transition to active use under stress and loadbearing the way Bodyflow does. Bodyflow/Prasara has much more direct application in that mode, simply because of the ground engagement and anti-gravity aspects of the training. If you can maintain your cool and center as you work a Prasara sequence on the mat, "real life" movement will probably be no challenge at all.And there is much more actual physical conditioning in Prasara. You DO become stronger, looser, more plastic, you DO move the lymph system around and challenge your respiratory system .

Whereas a typical Feldenkrais sequence has very little actual physical demand, but also potentially little carryover...it's so easy and light when you are in lesson mode this can often engender a false overconfidence; and then the second you start doing something strenous, difficult, or scary, you will probably revert back to your old habits.

JMO, of course. I think Moshe Feldenkrais was a great thinker and visionary. I just think that Bodyflow/Prasara goes far more deeply into the heart of true physical transformation.

[wadem]

I have read Awareness Through Movement, and have been interestd in reading more of Moshe Feldenkrais' works and see some bodywork being done. I have not tried any of it, but a friend took a class and learned some basic hip and spinal awareness exercises. I actually saw this person just before and immediately after one of these classes, and their back was straighter than I had ever seen it before (they have a bit of a hunch normally). So, while the method may be less stressful than others, it seems to have some really good benefits that are worth investigating.

But I am one of those people who thinks that everything is worth learning about and investigating, even if it only shows that you do not like certain methods. :)

[Coach Bentz]

Whereas a typical Feldenkrais sequence has very little actual physical demand, but also potentially little carryover...it's so easy and light when you are in lesson mode this can often engender a false overconfidence; and then the second you start doing something strenous, difficult, or scary, you will probably revert back to your old habits.

JMO, of course. I think Moshe Feldenkrais was a great thinker and visionary. I just think that Bodyflow/Prasara goes far more deeply into the heart of true physical transformation.

Well stated, James. And I would add, revert to old habits which leads to the re-establishment of one's patterns of tight connective tissue.

That was pretty close to my experience as a (former) professional bodyworker. Quick story for anyone interested. It was very frustrating to have all these great tools (not feldenkrais but I had good ones) for opening up stuck fascia and collapsed structure. But it rarely stayed open, except for the athletes. For the average person coming in, I started to feel like a human Advil. And I noticed the same in myself. I had people do all sorts of bodyworking styles on me and note the effects, but... the effects rarely lasted more than a few days.

Good example of that was a weekend myofascial release seminar I took, coming from the Hellerwork/Rolfing school. When I was done, i could reach behind my back and touch my fingers together behind my shoulder blades. I thought that was pretty cool until two days later when it vanished! A couple years later, I found that about three weeks of Warrior Wellness did the same thing (sometimes I can't clasp depending on what I've been doing, i can always touch.)

I gave up bodyworking nearly completely, for myself and in practice, focusing instead entirely on CST. Just to see what it, and I, could do without manipulative therapy. I found it did for me exactly what has been written about in this thread.

Oddly, after about a year and a half of that experiment, I'm ready to end my personal ban on bodywork. I had a VERY convincing bodyworking session by Joseph Schwartz, CST, at the Kappa certification seminar in Philadelphia. He reminded me not only what a top-shelf therapist can do to accelerate recovery, but, showed me that my body can now absorb those changes. (I know this because Joseph's treatment was completely focused on resolving an impediment to my performance, which was thoroughly tested at Kappa to my satisfaction) And the changes stick, because I can support them within my daily personal practice.

CST and bodywork are different skillsets, but very complementary. With CST's focus on the prehab, its a powerful combination.

[phc]

I didn't realize that I was surrounded with so many fellow bodyworkers at Kappa. It is great to see so many therapists coming to similiar conclusions. It was my experience and to be fair I believe my teacher Paul St. John 's that Bodywork should always be accompanied by a continuing program of mind-body exercise. He was clear that we should not set up a dependency system. That an individual should be empowered to take charge of their own health and wellness. Rmax programs in my opinion are excellant tools in this reguard. It was interesting to hear the feedback as to Rmax being more effective in developing applicable skills with the ability to cross over to other athletic abilities more easily than other methods. I also agree that Rmax tools are excellant in this reguard because of this system having methods that address the full physical spectrum from easy to intense exercise in an integrated manner. It is almost seamless. This gives a prospective client or practitioner the big picture of continued improvement. Thanks to everyone for their feedback.
Rich

[patflanagan]

Back to the original question: I did some basic Feldenkrais classes back in college, read "Awareness Through Movement" and "The Potent Self" and played around with it quite a bit for years. IMO, Feldenkrais is a potent tool for relaxation and stress relief. However, it does not really help the student make the transition to active use under stress and loadbearing the way Bodyflow does. Bodyflow/Prasara has much more direct application in that mode, simply because of the ground engagement and anti-gravity aspects of the training. If you can maintain your cool and center as you work a Prasara sequence on the mat, "real life" movement will probably be no challenge at all.And there is much more actual physical conditioning in Prasara. You DO become stronger, looser, more plastic, you DO move the lymph system around and challenge your respiratory system .

Whereas a typical Feldenkrais sequence has very little actual physical demand, but also potentially little carryover...it's so easy and light when you are in lesson mode this can often engender a false overconfidence; and then the second you start doing something strenous, difficult, or scary, you will probably revert back to your old habits.



I agree with these statements too a point. Its all about incremental progression. As a student of Hanna Somatics I come into contact with people who's SMA is so severe that applying Body Flow would not be the best choice for them for health reasons, at that time. That is when I would have them concentrate on very specific small motions to gain control and that area, very similar to Feldenkrais.

For most athletes this would be unnecessary and Intu-Flow® would be the best starting point. But here again Intu-Flow®, among many other qualities, is a Somatic system. So the same rules as Feldenkrais would apply as to focusing on the movement and having a 1st person experience.

http://www.rmaxinternational.com/forum/showthread.php?t=12457&highlight=mindfulness

Then once you've cleaned the slate with Intu-Flow®-you can then begin applying that new freedom to an avenue to gain skills with an even more direct application to transition under stress, ie Prasara Body-Flow.

[Coach Flanagan]

great post, hermano!

[KD Jones]

For the average person coming in, I started to feel like a human Advil. And I noticed the same in myself. I had people do all sorts of bodyworking styles on me and note the effects, but... the effects rarely lasted more than a few days.
...
I had a VERY convincing bodyworking session by Joseph Schwartz ... reminded me not only what a top-shelf therapist can do to accelerate recovery, but, showed me that my body can now absorb those changes.

One of the ways society curses itself, and assigns that curse on medical/health professionals.

We've got Doctors in the family, and this is their source of gresatest frustration - a massive cultural shift from manual to automatic transmission. What starts as a reasonable approach and intent becomes encumbered with an impossibility (shouldering other's resposibility for themselves), which is a grey area much loved by all manner of vampires and highwaymen, who are more than happy to hide on the fringes of the status quo.

End of rant. Thank God there's a better way.

[Isis]

This is an old thread so there may be no point in posting now.

"Back to the original question: I did some basic Feldenkrais classes back in college, read "Awareness Through Movement" and "The Potent Self" and played around with it quite a bit for years. IMO, Feldenkrais is a potent tool for relaxation and stress relief. However, it does not really help the student make the transition to active use under stress and loadbearing the way Bodyflow does. Bodyflow/Prasara has much more direct application in that mode, simply because of the ground engagement and anti-gravity aspects of the training. If you can maintain your cool and center as you work a Prasara sequence on the mat, "real life" movement will probably be no challenge at all.And there is much more actual physical conditioning in Prasara. You DO become stronger, looser, more plastic, you DO move the lymph system around and challenge your respiratory system .

Whereas a typical Feldenkrais sequence has very little actual physical demand, but also potentially little carryover...it's so easy and light when you are in lesson mode this can often engender a false overconfidence; and then the second you start doing something strenous, difficult, or scary, you will probably revert back to your old habits.

JMO, of course. I think Moshe Feldenkrais was a great thinker and visionary. I just think that Bodyflow/Prasara goes far more deeply into the heart of true physical transformation."

All i can say are your points are valid ONLY if you take two things into consideration.

1, you were obviously after something that Feldenkrais was not trying to teach and body-flow/prasara fills the gaps you perceive, which are not actually in Feldenkrais as a system but between your expectations/desires/goals and the point of the system etc.

2, While you are right in the way Body-flow/Prasara can be seen to use somatic education as a platform to launch into a more strenuous/stressful environment to facilitate adpatation that is beneficial in an athletic/conditioning/fitness way etc. You seem to be thinking that Feldenkrais is geared towards the same thing? It is not, not to my understanding.

Feldenkrais is not and as such it sounds like you approached it without due understanding, and as such ended up with the gap you then found filled with Body-flow etc. This is not a criticism of you, it is an observation that we often try different systems and we come with expectations desires etc, if what we want to achieve is not in line with the system then there will always be a gap that prevents us from reaching our goals.

Abi