Chi/Ki...what is it?

[SFE]

Hey All!

I'm vey interested in the point in CST textbook where Coach Sonnon bends the iron spike in a demonstration of focusing the need to motivate the audience. My question is: Is there such a thing as Chi/Ki? There have been pleanty of studies on the idea but I have yet to see a more "western" description of it than in the CST textbook. Performance-Breathing unlocks some mystery of it but I'm not sure if it's the entire picture...I would love to hear everyone's input on the subject!

Thanks!

[Garth Sch]

The problem with a "western" perspective is that it comes from philosophers like Rudolf Steiner, Paracelsus or Max Heindel. Western philosophers and alchemists often call it the etheric. (But not the etheric of 19th physics).

Chi/ ki needs an entire model behind it. Chi means different things to different people and is often used to descibe something else. For instance there is hot chi, cold chi and stagnant chi in Chinese medicine. In Japanese, ki can be used to decribe intention, for example sak-ki means something similiar to the killers intent. It can also be used for describing efficient technique or robust health.

The problem with doing studies on it, is that Chi is a non-physical energy. I don't believe that any "rats and stats" type study will ever prove the existence of chi. You could prove that acupuncture or chi gung or even homeopathy has a certain affect on a certain percentage of the population, but could you prove that chi is the prime cause of change?

Chi is something that you can only experience for your self, through trial, error and most of all, practice.

Burn with Fire,
Garth

[James Boelter]

I have many problems with the works and philosophy of famed rationalist and science popularizer Carl Sagan, but I give him credit for one brilliant bit of writing. In his novel 'Contact' (you may remember it was turned into a movie with Jodie Foster, but that's another story), a reporter is arguing with the book's heroine, a dedicated young female scientist who is all about the scientific method and rational empiricism, etc. The other person asks the heroine, "Do you love your father?" And of course, she replies 'Yes!". To which her questioner replies, "Prove it."

Talking about chi has some of that dilemma. You know it when you experience it, and all of us 'know' on some level what it is to experience chi by virtue of the fact that we are alive. Try to prove it, though.

As Garth pointed out, chi doesn't meld well with the 'rats and stats' approach to scientific definition. The very nature of chi presupposes a preverbal, intuitive experience of one's energy and connection with life and the world which tends to elude the ego's attempts to categorize it. And language plays tricks on you, and you tend to turn things into problems which are only problems because of the way language tricks you.

OK, but I'm going to try to help anyway. The best 'working' definition of chi I ever heard was from Stuart Olson, a disciple and adopted son of Tai Chi master T.T. Liang (who was closely associated with Chen Man Ching). Per Stuart, it helps to conceptualize chi as a kind of 'latent energy' in the blood. This latent energy can be activated with heat, and the best, most reliable source of heat in the human body is the breath. Much of Taoist meditation practice is meant to focus the heat of the breath 'under' the blood at various points in the body, especially at the tan tien...much of the rest of it is meant to clear obstructions in the body which prevent the free flow of chi.

Is this literally true? Of course not. But it provides a useful framework to conceptualize it, and when these two principles are understood, much of the chi kung. meditation and yoga 'breath' practices make a lot more coherent sense.

As Stuart pointed out, chi itself is 'neutral' and can be investigated and practiced at almost any level - to cure illness, to maximize health and longevity, for martial purposes, for 'enlightenment', for occult purposes, for mystical reasons, etc. Because it represents a concept, a metaphor AND a relationship between the body, the mind, and the enviroment, it can be all those things. Hence, ROSS can use the breath to mobilize the chi one way (to bend an iron spike), a Hsing I master can use it another (to gnnerate vibration patterns that reinforce techniques and protect from injury), a DaiYan chi kung master can use it for a third (to enhance health and as a moving meditation), and a meditation master such as Yin Shin Tzu can use it as a means of 'enlightenment' (see his little book, 'Tranquil Sitting' for a thorough inspiring explanation of what can be done with 'seated' meditation).

[BruceP]

When the mind/body intuitively engages the task at hand, chi happens.

When there's no cognitive investment in the doing of a thing, anything, and when it's done with great proficiency, it can be said that the person doing it has 'good kung fu'.

[SFE]

Could we consider then that when we are one with our Chi/Ki that we are in the "Zone", a la Body-Flow? We could never prove being in the "Zone" either....

[somlor]

If you are looking for actual scientific studies of Chi, I just stumbled across The International Society for the Study of Subtle Energies and Energy Medicine (http://www.issseem.org/) the other day and they have two publications that look very interesting. Also the Journal of Scientific Exploration (http://www.scientificexploration.org/jse.html) has some issues with relevant articles.

If anyone knows of any other publications or online articles pertaining to the scientific study of Chi please post them. I just began a Chi Kung practice and so I'm also very curious what Western science is uncovering in this area.

[mushtaq]

Greetings everyone,

This is an interesting thread, and unusual. There have been at least six posts on the subject and no one has flamed anyone else, this may be a new record for internet forums where C’hi is being discussed. :wink:

I have a few thoughts I would like to add to the mix, though I have to say I am no expert on the subject. I am however, a linguist by training (in both the anthropological and philosophical sides of the discipline) and over the years I have noticed something that I find quite interesting from a cross-cultural perspective.

Cross-culturally there are a class of words, such as C’hi (Chinese), Ki (Japanese), Pnuma (Greek), Spiritus (Latin), Rouch (Hebrew), Ruh (Arabic), Prana (Sanskrit) Nafs (Arabic), and Zi (Sumerian) to name a few, which all have the first meaning of “breath” and secondary meanings of “spirit” and “energy”. I could add another dozen words to this list but I don’t want to belabor the point.

I am also interested in the various “mystical brotherhoods” that began springing up in Central Asia approximately a thousand years ago. Members of these fraternities often lived to a remarkable age with robust health to the end of their lives. They attributed this to “breath control” and what is often called in the West “Dervish exercises”. We know that there was a good deal of contact between these groups and people of like mind from China, and with a fair amount of certainty we can suspect that there was a lot of sharing of various skills back and forth. The same can be suspected of being true going in a westerly direction through the Black Sea States. (There is a recent example of this possible cross-pollination in the person of G. I. Gurdjieff, a Russian, Georgian, Armenian, fellow who grew up in Uzbekistan, and in the early twentieth century put on performances of what he called his “Dervish exercises” or “Dervish dances” for fascinated crowds in St. Petersburg). I mention this because from descriptions and remaining examples there is a certain resemblance to material found in the Zdorovye system and the exercises that these long lived Central Asians practiced, enough to suspect that someone was swapping ideas back and forth. (I have no idea in which direction, but I suspect both)

I give you this long winded preamble by way of background for a somewhat wacky intuition I have about Coach Sonnon’s materal.

Firstly, I suspect that the “Be Breathed” material is in fact “C’hi Kung” (Breath Skills) at its most foundational level, and in fact may very much resemble what was originally intended by the creators of some of the more effective C’hi Kung practices. The “Be Breathed” material, along with the associated skill sets such as are found in Warrior Wellness certainly seem to produce the same results in the areas of health, increased energy, dynamic strength, decreased response time to stimulus and so on.

All of the above mentioned study leads me to suspect that the “as yet undiscovered bio-energy” model for C’hi may not be the most useful one at this time (though it could become so in the future)

I have been speculating that a model of C’hi that is based on the idea that correct and efficient “breath, structure, and movement” can produce many if not all of the observable effects of C’hi Kung might not be a fruitful area to investigate.

Now, all of this is just conjecture on my part. I am not saying that any of it is true, just that I find it interesting.

Mushtaq Ali

[Scott Sonnon]

Fascinating post, Mushtaq. Many would enjoy reading more from you.

[SFE]

Mushtaq -


Great post! I agree wholeheartedly with Coach Sonnon! The reason that I started this thread is that the idea of Chi/Ki has alwasy been one of those things that I keep on my backburner, often I think about it when I have nothing much else to :roll: ...

Thanks for your input. You've given me pleanty of things to research, I doubt that I will be thinking of "nothing much" for awhile :) !

On a side note - I was curious if anyone has had an expierence that they attributed to utilizing their Chi/Ki? If so, I would love to hear about it in detail (i.e. what you were thinking, any physical sensations, etc)! I have had sensations of tingling between my palms before and other minor sensations that I was at least told (by my instructor) was my Chi but of course it could never be proved. Thanks!

[J.H. Myers Jr.]

Chi/Ki is a river of energy you tap into it, more than control it, you get with the flow, you find the flow, you go with the flow and make it your own. Ki is there flowing, like the rivers, how you use it is what matters and is determined by your MA training.

[James Boelter]

I do have a 'chi' related anecdote, an incident that couldn't be related to anything else.

Over a decade ago, I was diligently practicing a version of 18 Buddha Hands promoted by Green Dragon Studios (a bunch of hard style Chinese martial artists who were at that time selling exercise and form videos for nearly every CMA out there, lead by a guy named John Allen). I have since found a far superior (and more authentic) version since, but I was pretty happy with the way this one seemed to rouse and mobilize chi when I worked on it.

After several months of this, I was in a convenience store by the soda fountain area, and filled a 44 oz plastic container with Diet Coke and ice, and sealed the top with a lid. I placed the full container near the edge of the counter and turned away to root through the junk food cooler.

Then instantly, instinctively,without even seeing what I was doing, I spun back 180 degrees, sank into a lunge and both my hands shot out and down. When I 'came to' myself, I realized that I had caught the container of Diet Coke UPSIDE DOWN, about 3 inches from the floor, with one hand under the inverted lid (keeping the soft drink from spilling out) and the other on top, steadying it. And I realized that I had heard a 'slosh' as the container slipped off the edge of the counter and had reacted to it. I got a spontaneous round of applause from everyone in the store as I rose from the lunge. I hadn't spilled a drop!

That instinctive, full body, perfectly executed spin/lunge/grab and catch without even seeing what I was grabbing for or registering the sound with my conscious mind could only have been an expression of Chi.

Too bad it was all in the service of saving a carcinogenic soft drink, but it WAS a valuable lesson in the ability of the BodyMind to act spontaneously and naturally without the interference of what they normally think of the 'Ego'.

[JasonE]

I have had several experiences that I typically attribute to Chi/Ki for lack of a better explanation. I am using the terms interchangeably here, though I understand that their more subtle meanings may have significant differences in concept and application.

I used to do a lot of experimentation with breathing and sensory training methods... nothing organized, but lots of playing with ideas. At times I would focus on visualization methods or on simply feeling different impulses in my body. Of course, I messed around with a lot of the Chi and Ki stuff I came across, though I had no formal training in it.

A person I met was very heavily into energy, in a weird post-hippy-new-agey sort of way that was unlike anything encountered before or since. She was extremely oversensitive to many people and would talk about seeing auras and all kinds of other stuff. In a long discussion, we got deep into energy exchange and manipulation, and she proceeded to demonstrate.

Keeping some distance between our hands, she asked me to describe what I felt... and I soon felt tremendous heat in my palms, which started to creep up my arms, which then faded away as if siphoned back out. Moving her hands closer to me but never touching, I could feel heat patches move with her hands, and in some cases I could feel pockets of tension release as she took her hands away.

By this point, I felt like I could sense something radiating from her, so I moved my hands near her, focusing on the heat in my palms and "pushing" it to her or "drawing" it away. At some point I felt almost as if I could grab whatever I sensed radiating from her, so I felt for a "lump" of tension and pulled it away... then another and another. Looking shocked, she jumped away and told me to stop, which I did. The heat in my palms remained for some time until I remembered an Aikido vibration drill to release tension and excess Ki energy.

Definitely a weird experience.... then I had another one about 3 years later.

On another occasion, I was talking to a guy after sparring, and he mentioned his ability to channel Chi/Ki. He indicated that he felt he was fairly advanced (at the ripe age of 20) and had even been trying to teach someone his methods. Of course, I asked for a demo.

We did the palm thing again, keeping some distance between our hands. I felt my palm heat up again, and soon I could feel a surge of heat that hand my whole hand trembling. As the surge and the trembling moved through my wrist and up my forearm to the elbow, I became a little concerned. Whatever I was feeling was intense, but not at all focused or controlled, and I didn't like it. I decided to give it back.

Visualizing a reversal of flow, I sent it back, and the heat and trembling were gone almost instantly. Surprised, he broke away. I asked him what the problem was and he said he hadn't felt anyone "push back" before, and that he had felt a surge roar up through his hand and arm into the shoulder before he pulled away. His arm was a bit tensed up, so I showed him the Aikido drill I had used before and he was fine after that.

These are the most intense Chi/Ki experiences I have had where I couldn't find an alternate explanation that was more satisfactory.

Since the second one, I have had some formal training in Chi Kung and Chen Tai Chi. I learned some cool stuff doing that, but didn't have any experiences that were quite on the level of the 2 experiences described.

[SFE]

Jason-

Very interesting stories! I was wondering if you could descirbe the Aikido drill that you used to release excess Ki. Always nice to have a new exercise work/play around with!

Thanks!

[JasonE]

It's a simple drill I learned as a beginner in Seidokan Aikido:

Start by bouncing lightly on the balls of your feet as you semi-gently shake your head, shoulders, and arms. After 5 seconds or so, cut the amount of bounce and shake in half. After 5 seconds or so, cut it in half again, and continue until you are just standing there, feeling the "bounce" ever so slightly in your center and the stored tension dripping out of your hands and fingertips to drop into the ground.

When I learned this, there was a fair amount of emphasis on the released energy flowing down into the earth from the start of the drill and continuing until the very end. I usually exhale a bit on the initial bounces and move into a deeper, slower exhalation as I near the end, but I am not aware of a particular method being emphasized.

The late Rod Kobayashi, founder of Seidokan Aikido, was a disciple of Koichi Tohei, founder of The Ki Society, for many years. The late Bill Sosa, founder of the Internatioal Aikido Association, was a disciple of Rod Kobayashi for many years. I have seen this dril practiced by practitioners in all 3 disciplines.

Koichi Tohei has put out some interesting books you may want to examine. I haven't looked at my copies for a while, but if you want I will see if he offers any other methods to play with. I remember he was big on making it a daily practice for health reasons.

[SFE]

Jason-

Thanks for your swift reply 8) ! It would be excellent if you could list any other methods that you think are useful! I've been fascinated with Aikido for many years, one of these days I'll have to join a dojo!

Thanks again!

[James Boelter]

Jason, this is almost exactly the same as the 'vibration training variation' of Performance Breathing taught by Coach Sonnon in 'Maximology' and 'Peak Peformance Pugilism' Volume 1. Interesting!

[SiDaiJoey]

Is this like light jumping, or do your feet not leave the ground? tThis idea sounds great for releasing tension. What is it supposed to promote, and what is the "vibration training" for? Can someone elaborate on that and how to do it?

Also as a side note, I was pleased that someone else mentioned the Hebrew "ruach" (although the correct transliteration at the end of the word isn't "ch", it's actually a sound that is isn't in the English language. But I digress :) Ruach is conventionally translated as "wind", "spirit" (in hebrew the words "Ruach HaKodesh" means "Divine Inspiration", and is also taken to mean the second level of "life force" which I think is considered common to animals and people, but not plants.

As someone who received some education in Jewish philosophy as well as being a descendant of Kabbalist mystics, I'm proud to be getting a chance to show off ;). It may be a little silly, but people often forget about the true substance behind that material. I also look at all the pop "Kabbalah" out there now and think that the true Kabbalists of old would be horrified at this. In all cases, the true teaching were just as difficult to come by (if not more so) as it was to gain admission into some of the closed-door martial schools.

Ok, my rant is over now. :)

I hope I'm not coming off as flaky in this post - although I'm afraid that's the impression I often give on this forum, as I'm often a newbie in these areas.

Joey

[JasonE]

Thanks for your swift reply ! It would be excellent if you could list any other methods that you think are useful! I've been fascinated with Aikido for many years, one of these days I'll have to join a dojo!


Most of the other tension-relieving methods I learned from my old aikido instructors involved deep-breathing exercises and meditation. The vibration drill previously described was the most dynamic and generally accomplished the most in a short time span.

I haven't had a chance to dig into my library for recommended reading yet, but if you start by doing an author search for Koichi Tohei, you'll be on the right track.


Jason, this is almost exactly the same as the 'vibration training variation' of Performance Breathing™ taught by Coach Sonnon in 'Maximology™' and 'Peak Peformance Pugilism' Volume 1. Interesting!

Very interesting indeed, as I haven't seen that tape yet. The only ones I have watched so far are GTB 1-3, the first half of Be Breathed, and Warrior Wellness 1.

If something is universal to all people, then it only makes sense that it would be discovered and rediscovered by people all over the world through the ages.


Is this like light jumping, or do your feet not leave the ground? tThis idea sounds great for releasing tension. What is it supposed to promote, and what is the "vibration training" for? Can someone elaborate on that and how to do it?

The aikido vibration drill started with bouncing on the balls of the feet, coming at most a couple of inches off the ground, if at all. As it progressed you would simply bounce less and shake less vigorously.

We would generally inhale on 4-5 bounces and exhale on 4-5 bounces, but feel free to play with it. The main thing was to release tension and restore normal breathing.

[SFE]

Thanks again, Jason! I'll poke around for books by Koichi Tohei!

8)

[Coach Jones]

I've held off posting to this thread for a while. Mostly due to the fact that it is almost impossible to have an "easy-going" conversation about it. When it comes to riling people up, it's right up there with politics and religion.

At the end of the day, your dilligence in practice and your hard work (read as intelligent hard work) is what improves your abilities not the attempted cultivation of Chi/Ki. Now don't get me wrong, i'm not saying that Chi/Ki doesn't exist, i'm simply saying that it's just not worth worrying about. There's a great quote on one of Geoff Thompsons videos that goes, "It doesn't matter what color the cat is, as long as it catches mice."

There are a lot of VERY insightful posts on this thread, but I just don't see the need to try and relate it to Chi. Maybe the feeling you have when training is Chi, maybe it's not, but if it's good and you improve because of it - that's all that matters.

-Brandon Jones, CST

[somlor]

There are a lot of VERY insightful posts on this thread, but I just don't see the need to try and relate it to Chi. Maybe the feeling you have when training is Chi, maybe it's not, but if it's good and you improve because of it - that's all that matters.
I think it depends on what you mean by training. Lately I've been exploring Chi Kung in depth so clearly "relating to Chi" is at the core of this type of practice. :D

[Coach Jones]

I'm not trying to condemn Chi Kung. Not remotely. I think a lot of it has great training value. If someone is practicing Chi kung, and as a result of it they feel better, improve their performance, or even find their car keys then it's obviously working for them and I would encourage them to continue. My point is this. Suppose you are deeply engaged in your practice and you experience a feeling that your positive, beyond any shadow of doubt is Chi, then what? If for some reason you found out that there absolutely was no such thing as Chi, would it diminish the worth of the exercises? It's the exercise itself that yields the benefits. Being "in the moment" in practice rather than trying to solve the mystery of Chi.
I've practiced a ton of different Chi Kung methods myself over the years. Admittedly, most of these would fall more in the so called "hard" Chi Kung category. Iron Body, Iron Palm, Iron Wire, etc. but i've done a bit of the other as well. I gained tremendous benefits from all of them, but whether or not it was Chi or something else that lead to the benefits...who knows?

The benefits come from the exercise whether you call it Chi, Ki, or The Force.

Just my opinion,
-Brandon Jones, CST

[James Boelter]

Brandon, absolutely agree. Very nicely put!

[somlor]

It's the exercise itself that yields the benefits. Being "in the moment" in practice rather than trying to solve the mystery of Chi.

...

The benefits come from the exercise whether you call it Chi, Ki, or The Force.

Yes, I agree as well. Chi is just a word, and a fairly abstract one. And like "mind" and "self" and "love" it probably cannot really be proven or entirely pinned down. Having said that, I think Chi, Ki, Prana, Ruach, etc. are perfectly good descriptors for the experience being pointed to. As good as "mind" IMO, and our culture can sit around and talk about the "mind" for hours without ever questioning the necessity or integrity of this concept. I'm not claiming that the Chi concept is 100% necessary to a person's development of the experiences typically sought through Chi Kung. But in my own admittedly limited experience so far, I find it much easier to say "Chi" then "a subtle awareness of the qualities inherent in a breath felt in the energetic sensations of my body, which is felt as being connected to and integrated with something much more vast, but also much more deeply personal". :)

[Vbrown]

Some good points. But the term "qi" is even more squirrelly. It can mean :
"a subtle awareness of the qualities inherent in a breath felt in the energetic sensations of my body, which is felt as being connected to and integrated with something much more vast, but also much more deeply personal"

or it can be used as a simple pronoun for "stuff" or "intent". Heck, even passing gas is qi. (as in releasing the bad qi. I'm not kidding)

So it gets really tricky when qi can be used in converstion and mean all sorts of things in the same sentence. "Sink your qi"= relax and alter your structure to lower your center of mass. "bring the qi to the_______"= focus to this specific area. "don't hold your breath or your qi will rebel"= you'll pop a blood vessel or pass out.

It's like using the word smurf. But cooler.

Vince (walking embodiment of Evil Qi)

[somlor]

I am aware that my "definition" is not exhaustive, and I agree that the word can get washed out to the point of absurdity in certain contexts. It's true that Chi is a very broad concept. I used to think it referred simply to the energy running through the meridians. Later I read that it is much more encompassing and that it's thought the entire physical universe is a unifed, vibrating "Chi field" that we move through and are a part of. This makes it entirely possible to refer to the Chi of anything and to use it as a "smurf word". But I feel that this is actually an essential part of it's value as a concept. That it is a "squirrelly" description of subtle relationships on a micro and macrocosmic level. I find this very in tune with what science, ie: quantum field theory, is finding an accurate description of reality. The Chi concept is, in part, pointing to a human experience of this nature. This makes it useful IMO, especially considering how nearly unshakeable and widespread the belief in an "I" as a fundamentally separate entity is, and how few, gentle, body-respecting approaches there are to exploring what's really going on in the interplay of mind, body, spirit, and universe.

[JasonE]

2 Quotes from Vince's last post:


Heck, even passing gas is qi. (as in releasing the bad qi. I'm not kidding)


Vince (walking embodiment of Evil Qi)

Too funny, bro! :lol:

[JasonE]

Thanks again, Jason! I'll poke around for books by Koichi Tohei!

"Book of Ki: Co-Ordinating Mind and Body in Daily Life" by Koichi Tohei is probably your best bet, particularly for non-aikidoka.

For appetizers, here are a few tidbits that jumped out as I was flipping through it again:


Correct use of the mind is of primary importance, but there is no use putting fine food on a chipped platter. A man with a weak body will perform poorly even if he has a fine mind. It is important to train the body so that it is healthy and strong and can endure hardship.


If the string of a bow is always taut, it will be of no use in an emergency. Neither can a man produce power when it is needed if his muscles are constantly tense. Athletes sometimes falter for just this reason. Real relaxation, the type referred to in the second of the Four Basic Principles to Unify Mind and Body, is the strongest state. It is comfortable and healthy, full of power.


Stand with both arms hanging naturally at your sides. Keeping one point, shake the hands as fast as possible so that the whole body, including the toes, shakes. Stop shaking your hands and remain quietly in this position. - this is a variation on the vibration drill I described earlier on this thread.

...there's a lot of other excellent material here, too... and it's interesting to see how much crossover there is with what Coach Sonnon discusses in some of his books and his "Musings". It's been a while since I read this, and now I'll have to reread it in light of the things I have learned since the last time.[/b]

[SFE]

Thanks Jason! It's great to have a more specific place to start looking!

You've been really helpful, quite appreciated!

I personally feel chi/prana is the electro-magnetic energy used by the nervous system to send messages.

I have a theory to do with the flow state or zone whatever you want to call it.

First of all i'm making the assumption that mind and brain are two seperate interelated entities.

I believe the more time you spend on a particular movement, the more time your brain has to create the most efficient neural pathways to perform that movement.

I think you eventually get to a point where the pathway is so ingrained that the brain can take over all on it's own while the mind is free to stay still.

This is a bit of a crackpot idea I think because of the assuption I made but hey, like Einstein said " If at first an idea doesn't seem crazy, it's probably wrong".

Thanks!!