RMAXing Fencing

[Coach Larson]

I am orgainizing a fencing class for service members in Bagram, Afghanistan while I am deployed here for the next year. We will start by working on sport foil fencing. A fencing supply company in North Carolina generously donated some equipment for this purpose before I deployed. Eventually we will also explore carbine/bayonet fencing and historical fencing as well.

Of course I want to incorporate as much RMAX into this training as I can. So far I have pretty much only been training myself in CST/RMAX up to this point so working with a group will be an exciting new opportunity.

To start off this thread I wanted to talk about structuring a class. I have attended countless martial arts and fencing classes and have seen a variety of approaches from a highly structured, unchanging format to free form, flow-of-consciousness method.

Of course each class should be a somewhat unique experience and you have to be flexible to address the unpredictable dynamics you encounter with any particular group of people. However I also feel you should have a skeletal structure for a class that you can work from.

Here's what I have come up with for a one hour class:

10 minutes: Prime the Joints - a fencing-specific Intu-Flow®
10 minutes: Raise Core Temperture/Conditioning - 'Fencing GPP' exercises that I have developed
10 minutes: Footwork/Solo Drills
15 minutes: Line Drills - Static, Fluid, Dynamic progression
10 minutes: Free Fencing
5 minutes: Cool-down - Compensation exercises, stretching

Class will begin in about a week from now. I will use this schedule as a template to start out and adjust it as necessary as things go along.

I'll try to continue to post on other RMAX Powered Fencing topics as I progress. I welcome any comment or input from others of the RMAX tribe.

[Ryan Murdock]

Great work, Jeffry! I'll be interested to follow this thread.

Will you incorporate the concept of Static, Fluid and Dynamic drill progressions into your Practice?

[Coach Larson]

Yes, but I need to research and learn more about just how that drill progression works.
I have the 3DPP book that I am about to start reading.
I also have your RMAX Training Group Manual which I plan to re-read as well. I know from the first reading that your book will have much in it to assist me as I put this program together.

[Ryan Murdock]

I also have your RMAX Training Group Manual which I plan to re-read as well. I know from the first reading that your book will have much in it to assist me as I put this program together.
Yep, it's all in there. The 3DPP will give you the necessary theory, and the TGM provides concrete examples of how to apply it. Beyond that, we can flesh it out here in the discussions.

Should be fun. :)

[Coach Larson]

As a starting point and frame of reference as I start to plan training for these classes, I have come up with the following fencing doctrine:

I. Doctrine:

a. Execute a palpable touch to your opponent with the weapon without being touched by your opponent
b. Specific sets of conventions and rules of engagement: foil, epee, and saber
c. Combat is always one-on-one against a identically armed opponent

II. Strategies:

a. Attack into an open or opening line
b. Cause your opponent to open a line then attack into the opening

III. Tactics:

a. Active manipulation of timing and distance
b. Linear movement within the confines of the strip
c. Development of quick reaction speed

IV. Techniques:
a. Direct attacks
b. Parry/Riposte
c. Counterattacks
d. Numerous other techniques that must be spontaneously executed according to the tactical needs of the moment


Thanks to Coach Murdock and the 'RMAX Training Group Manual' for helping me understand how to make this analysis.

[Ryan Murdock]

This is excellent work, Jeffry!

I'm really glad to see you digging into the meat of the manual. I hope that more RMAX-ers will do the same!

[Coach Larson]

I held the first meeting of the Bagram Airfield (BAF) Fencing club last night here in Afghanistan. I had not idea how may people would be there and was surprised to have 16 U.S. service members show up. I consider this a great turnout and hopefully most will keep coming back. Their is a bit of a problem however in that I only have 7 foils and 3 masks. I'm going to have to find a way to get more equipment. I am thinking of working with sticks. I'm sure I can get plenty of mop handles. I could cut them down to size and teach singlestick/saber fencing. Or I could use them as bayonet trainers. I'll have to think about that some more . . .

I started by briefly introducing myself and my background and then gave a brief overview of the art and sport of fencing. I then lead them through a joint priming routine of Intu-Flow® exercises.

In the interests of time I didn't go into any conditioning exercises this time but went straight into the basics. I introduced the basic on-guard stance and footwork including advance, retreat, and lunge. They went through numerous varied iterations of footwork sequences using those basic building blocks. Nothing too fast. I wanted to make sure that their technique would not be sacrificed for speed.

Next we pulled out the foils and practiced some "shock absorbtion". Basically one person would stand without flinching while the other would make several touches from various distances. Receiving a thrust from a foil, while not causing much physical trauma, can be psychologically shocking.

After a few other drills we ended the night with several rounds of "glove fencing" (using fencing footwork to tag your opponent with a glove) and then some cool-down stretching. It seemed that most everyone enjoyed the class. I think it offered a good break from the daily battle rhythm of the deployment mission.

Preparing for and teaching this first class has generated a lot of thoughts about fencing in general, specifics about technique, and how to coach others in fencing. In the future in this thread I plan to write more about these themes and less description of what happens during classes.

Lastly, if anyone happens to come across any old fencing gear that could be donated, or if you just want to send a care package to service members over here, let me know and I will send you my address.

[Ryan Murdock]

Great work Jeffry!

Do you have the Softwork DVD? If so, check out the knife section, you'll likely find some great ideas there. The touch response drill is a natural progression from the foil shock absorption you wrote of above. I think RMAX is unique in that it takes such weapons and works from contact on out, rather than the opposite. I've had some great discoveries here, and it's really a fast track to gaining that fine judgement of distance exhibited by true masters.

[Coach Larson]

Coach Murdock: Yes, I do have the Softwork DVD and will definitely be considering your suggestion. I've only watched it once so far. Very soon I will watch it again closely and take some notes.

Something I have been looking at lately is the locomotive technique of some fundamental footwork. I'm taking a hard look at the basic advance, retreat, and lunge to determine the most effective and efficient form. On the Biomechanics of the Blade video Scott demonstrates a wave-like action in the advance and retreat. However there is not a lot of verbal description of the technique on the tape. The same type of movement is described on page 58 of the RMAX Training Group Manual.

The picture I am getting is that in the advance force is generated by the back heel stomping down then that force is translated up the rear leg, through the pelvis, and into the front leg which is then propelled forward. Also on the tape it looks like the forward foot lands on the mid-foot rather thatn the heel. Its a very different and more sophisticated movement than I was taught so far in fencing. I think a similar action is involved in the retreat and lunge.

I will be experimenting with this movement over the next several days and attempt to contrast with the traditional method.

[Ryan Murdock]

Jeffry,

That drill is also included in the footwork drill section of my new volume 2 DVD.

Would you be interested in submitting an article to RMAX magazine on your fencing club? We'd love to feature your guys - with photos of course! - putting your drills into action.

[Coach Larson]

That drill is also included in the footwork drill section of my new volume 2 DVD.

Excellent! I'll be ordering that DVD very soon. I can't wait to get my hands on it!


Would you be interested in submitting an article to RMAX magazine on your fencing club? We'd love to feature your guys - with photos of course! - putting your drills into action.

You have but to ask and it shall be done . . .

[peterng25]

Jeffry,
I have to honestly say that I envy you and your students.
I personally fence at a great club, the coach is the 2005 Pacific coast champion. He has the reflexes of a tiger, and the eye of an eagle. He can catch every little errors I make instantly. But, I find myself wishing for a CST type of fencing coach, so when he says: "Peter, you're not pulling back enough after a strike,..." it could be instead: "pull back, you're binding your flow,..." or some such thing.
I mean, he can see that I do move with some fluidity, but his advice although very pertinent, is in the more traditional mode of "See what I mean, do that, and someday you'll be like the champions,..." and not "Be the master of your own style...;)"
Anyway, take care over there (thanks for doing what you're doing), and maybe someday when you're back and I am fortunate enough, we might get together and compare moves :0)

[Soheil John Ward]

Jeffry, good luck to you and god bless you and your soldiers over there, and be safe!

A friend and I are beginning to exploring bayonet/quarterstaff fencing using 4 ft hardwood dowels that have tennis balls and about 10 inches of foam rubber tubing securely duct tapped to the ends. Although we are doing some SoftWork, the padding allows us to move at more real life speeds without killing each other (yeah!). I’m also thinking about investing in some lacrosse gloves.

We haven’t had too many sessions but it’s been fun. My partner has more bayonet fencing experience It’s funny because I spent 4 years in the Marine Corps, mostly in an infantry battalion, and he’s never served. Go figure.

[Coach Larson]

While I am not in a combat arms branch it nevertheless seems to me that bayonet/carbine fencing is quickly becoming a lost art. Indeed I think it could be considered more of a historical martial art versus a contemporary one.

I think they still do a few hours of bayonet training in Basic Training but that's about it.

Many troopers carry fighting knives around but I think very few ever get used in a hand-to-hand combat situation.

[Coach Larson]

An interesting dynamic has developed in our fencing club here. It has turned out to be pretty popular with over 20 people showing up each week. With that many people this has turned into a 'class' rather than a small training atmosphere and I have become the de facto group instructor. And this despite the fact that there are people in the group that have more fencing experience than I have!

I have been trying to work with the static-fluid-dynamic drill spectrum. It is complicated by the fact that there are a lot of people at many different levels. Static drills are easy. Everybody follows along at the same time by the numbers. It starts to get a little chaotic when we add more unpredictability into the drills.

For example I can get them started by working in the slow time framing of Softwork easily enough. But after about 10 seconds either restlessness and/or competitiveness kicks in and many of them are going at it at close to full speed. I guess it will take some more explanation and constant monitoring on my part to make sure they don't ramp things up to a level to hard for them to be responding to each other properly. I'm also thinking of verbal cues I can give them to help keep there minds focused on the right things. So far I've tried saying things like "half speed" or "70% speed".

[Glenn Sunshine]

We used to have a similar problem in our half speed sparring in kung fu classes. I chalked it up mostly to adrenaline, but it may be competition as well. With us, as we kept at it and it stopped being so novel, as people dealt with fear and excitement and became accustomed to the exercise, we were able to keep the slower tempo.

[Aengus]

A friend and I are beginning to exploring bayonet/quarterstaff fencing using 4 ft hardwood dowels that have tennis balls and about 10 inches of foam rubber tubing securely duct tapped to the ends. Although we are doing some SoftWork, the padding allows us to move at more real life speeds without killing each other (yeah!). I’m also thinking about investing in some lacrosse gloves.

We haven’t had too many sessions but it’s been fun. My partner has more bayonet fencing experience It’s funny because I spent 4 years in the Marine Corps, mostly in an infantry battalion, and he’s never served. Go figure.[/QUOTE]

Soheil,
Try this ling for some tips for the quarterstaff training. They hold up pretty well to the rigors of armored combat.

http://www.mandrakearmory.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=CTGY&Store_Code=MA&Category_Code=TPS

[Aengus]

While I am not in a combat arms branch it nevertheless seems to me that bayonet/carbine fencing is quickly becoming a lost art. Indeed I think it could be considered more of a historical martial art versus a contemporary one.

I think they still do a few hours of bayonet training in Basic Training but that's about it.

Many troopers carry fighting knives around but I think very few ever get used in a hand-to-hand combat situation.

Have you gotten a copy of the Russion Bayonet/Knife Fighting Video's? I realize it's VHS but it has some great information on it. It's helped me win a few tournaments.

Jeff, thanks for what you doing over there and stay safe.

"Keep your head down and your powder dry."
Or, as my buddy always signed off; "Don't forget to Duck!" :)

[Soheil John Ward]

I think they still do a few hours of bayonet training in Basic Training but that's about it.


We spent a fair amount of time learning bayonet fencing while I was in the Marine Corps but not nearly enough, especially considering the mission of the Marine rifle squad, which was “to seek out, close with, and destroy the enemy by fire and maneuver, or to repel the enemies’ assault by fire and close combat.” I wish RMAX could design the training program. I know there have been a couple of units that have heard the command to “fix bayonets!” over there.

Again keep up the good work sir, good luck, god bless, and come home whole.

[Coach Larson]

I have been working for the past couple of weeks on the 'wave' motion fencer's advance/retreat footwork that I first saw in the 'Biomechanics of the Blade' series. About a week ago I received Coach Murdock's 'RMAX Powered Bujinkan Vol. II' which also features that drill.

I have noticed in myself a vast improvement in the efficiency in my advance/retreat/lunge movement as a result of working on this drill. It is so much more sophistocated than the standard way fencing footwork it taught. It really amazing to feel as if you are calmly riding a wave across the floor as you make multiple advances.

I introduced this drill to the fencing club here at our last meeting. I had them start out slowly, step-by-step until it looked like they had a feel for the movement. I then had them repeat and gradually pick up the tempo. After just a few minutes of this all of them showed marked improvement in their footwork. It was unbelievable to see the rapid (almost instant) progress happen right then and there!

[Ryan Murdock]

Very cool, Jeffry!! That's great progress! :cool: :cool:

I always enjoy reading your updates. (and I wonder why more people aren't doing the work like you are!).

[Coach Larson]

Thanks Coach. The example and support that you and all of the RMAX coaching staff provide are a great inspiration for me to strive for improvement.

I also wanted to tell you how much I have enjoyed your 'Bujinkan vol. II'. I've only watched it a couple of times so far and I feel I have learned more with each viewing. I know I will be reviewing it over and over again as it is packed with information which I know I will be using. Once again, even though this DVD is focused on a particular delivery system that I don't currently practice, your approach and development of this program is like a guidebook to "RMAX Powering" any given system.

Congratulations and thanks for making this tremendous new contribution to the RMAX library!

Jeff

[Coach Larson]

I've been thinking lately about trying to create Static, Fluid, and Dynamic drill progressions with fencing techniques.

The static phase is pretty simple, execute the basic technique against a non-resistant opponent and repeat for 5-10 repetitions to begin to develop awareness of the movement. Speed should be slow enough to facilitate fluid movement.

Then to make the drill more fluid incrementally add degrees of difficulty or resistance. Time framing should progress incrementally up the Softwork-Hardwork continuum. More variables can be added once a certain level of comfort has been reached.

Finally make the drill dynamic by removing most all restrictions and cause the athlete to react to unplanned circumstances.

In working this out practically I came up with the following progression for the direct attack. Its the most basic action in fencing, simply extending and lunging to hit the opponent on target. Here's what I have so far. The fencer who is working the drill is fencer A, the one facilitating the drill is fencer B.

Static:

both fencers stand on guard; fencer B keeps all targets open; fencer A executes direct attacks on all targets - high/low/inside/outside

Fluid:

1. add movement - fencer B advances and retreats at random; fencer A moves to maintain distance and executes direct attacks

2. add random cue - fencer B positions foil in center of body, at random he moves the foil out of the way to uncover a target; fencer A must read the cue and instantly direct attack to the exposed target area

3. Combine 1 & 2; ramp up the speed as fencer A gets comfortable in the drill

Dynamic:

Add more variables - free movement up and down the strip; no cues given by fencer B; fencer A attacks anytime he perceives and opening; fencer B may also attack fencer A or parry and riposte occasionally to make fencer A work against more resistance.

Throughout this progression fencer A is limited to only making direct attacks.

Drills similar to this pattern could be created for all of the many, many other fencing actions from basic to advanced. I'm trying to work out a few more drills like this and put them to use next week in our group. I'll report back with the results.

[Ryan Murdock]

Some photos that Jeff sent me. :)


Coach,

I thought you might like to see some pics of our fencing group here.
These are from last week.

Because of the large group that showed up we had to break into two groups.
One group worked on foil fencing and another used singlesticks to work on some stick fencing techniques.

Sorry that the pictures are kind of dark. We are practicing in the Enduring Faith Chapel here in Bagram and the lighting is a little dark.


http://www.rmaxinternational.com/magimages/fencing%20group/BAF%20Fencing%201%20002.JPG

http://www.rmaxinternational.com/magimages/fencing%20group/BAF%20Fencing%201%20009_edited.JPG

http://www.rmaxinternational.com/magimages/fencing%20group/BAF%20Fencing%201%20010_edited.JPG

http://www.rmaxinternational.com/magimages/fencing%20group/BAF%20Fencing%201%20011_edited.JPG

Thank you guys! We're very proud of the work you're doing, on and off the practice floor.

:respect:

[Coach Larson]

I just received some wooden bayonet fenicng trainers that were graciously donated by Purpleheart Armouries! We will now be able to do a carbine fencing cycle soon. I just have to go back and review the video and my notes and come up with a training plan. Stay tuned . . .

[Ryan Murdock]

A couple more fencing pics from the guys in Afghanistan.

http://www.rmaxinternational.com/magimages/fencingpix014.JPG

http://www.rmaxinternational.com/magimages/fencingpix028.JPG

[Coach Larson]

I've recently been examining the optimal position for the rear foot in the on-guard stance.
There are two schools of thought on this: stay on the ball of the foot with the heel slightly raised or keep the foot flat.
I'm not sure which is better so I am going to begin experimenting with both.
The argument for the ball of foot is it lends itself to mobility and quickness on the push off.
It seems from what I've read on other threads that a mid-foot balance would be most advantageous. I think this would be because of increased stability and access to the natural SEE of the arch of the foot.

Any suggestions from anyone on this?