More weapons that had better be CST-powered

[tellner]

A pair of Indian/Sikh Teghas. Heavy suckers. I'm practicing shield casts and a couple other clubbell exercises with them with interesting results.

[Coach Jones]

If only there was a tool specifically designed for that purpose?

[KimaMule]

But who would take it upon themselves to go to the ends of the earth to devise such a tool? :D

[tellner]

I use clubbells for clubbell training in strength and body mechanics. I play with weird weapons to get an idea of how they are used. I use the RMAX principles to power the movements and see how the movements get modified when you apply them differently. Some of them translate well. Others don't.

That's what they call skill-specific training. If use the muscles for something besides flexing for the ladies - or gentlemen if that's youre preference - it makes the whole thing a lot more interesting.

[Coach Jones]

I was being sarcastic but i'm curious as to your take on "skill specific training". Maybe i'm not understanding entirely but it sounded like you weren't developing skills but rather simply swinging a different object in the same manner in which you would swing Clubbells.

If you're training in the use of those particular weapons, then it's a different issue entirely. There is a difference in learning, developing and refining a skill and simply doing Clubbell exercises with another object be it a baseball bat, pair of umbrellas or swords.

Though I was kidding originally, you can absolutely perfrom many Clubbell movements with any objects, it isn't necessarily advisable or beneficial to do so.

[Coach Larson]

Coach Jones: correct me if I am wrong but here's my take on relating CST to swordsmanship or any weapons practice.

Training with Clubbells develops attributes such as multi-planar strength and the 7 Key Components. All of these attributes are certainly applicable to sword work. While performing shield casts with a sword may have some limited value, one can generate a much greater training effect (developing attributes) by performing the exercise with a Clubbell.

On the other hand, skill in wielding a sword comes through practice of the techniques of the particular style one is studying. This would be most efficiently achieved through Static, Fluid, and Dynamic Drills.

Todd: I would be interested to hear more about your discoveries in using RMAX principles to power your sword work. As I indicated above I believe there is a lot of applicability here. As a student of historical swordsmanship and modern fencing this has been a particular area of study for me. Thanks for sharing.

[Ryan Murdock]

Training with Clubbells develops attributes such as multi-planar strength and the 7 Key Components. All of these attributes are certainly applicable to sword work. While performing shield casts with a sword may have some limited value, one can generate a much greater training effect (developing attributes) by performing the exercise with a Clubbell®.

On the other hand, skill in wielding a sword comes through practice of the techniques of the particular style one is studying. This would be most efficiently achieved through Static, Fluid, and Dynamic Drills.

I'm not Coach Jones, but I'll jump in here for a sec...

You've got it.

As you've stated, the simplified version is that with the Clubbells you're training Attributes (reference the Performance Diagnostic Trinity). When you pick up your sword you're working the Practice face of the pyramid. The PDT is a great tool because it allows you to get clear on this point, and when you do, your progress fast tracks.

But there's some interesting crossover between the two areas. It's part of the magic of CST. When training with Clubbells you're teaching your body to efficiently apply the 7 Components of structure. That's more important than how much weight you can swing. And your kinesthetic knowledge of locking down and applying those 7 principles transfers directly to all of your activities - including your swordsmanship. ;)

[Coach Jones]

Exactly.

What got my attention was that, and I may have misunderstood, it sounded like Todd was saying that he was using CST exercises as the learning vehicle for using these weapons as well as training.

There is no better way to get your attribute training down than Clubbells and the 7 key components of CST. Skill development = a horse of a different color, like Coach Murdock said.

Using Clubbell exercises as your template for sword fighting could be problematic just as using a sword, axe or small child for your Clubbell work could be.

[KimaMule]

"Using Clubbell® exercises as your template for sword fighting could be problematic just as using a sword, axe or small child for your Clubbell® work could be."

-Coach Jones

I love your humor.

[Chuck Kechter]

Using Clubbell® exercises as your template for sword fighting could be problematic just as using a sword, axe or small child for your Clubbell® work could be.

HA! Great visual! :)

[janet lee]

Using Clubbell®® exercises as your template for sword fighting could be problematic just as using a sword, axe or small child for your Clubbell®® work could be.

When my kids were little they loved to be thrown around, swung upside down etc. I'd like to see the video on that one. :mfr_lol:
Not sure small kids would take to the rep level folks are generally striving for....

[tellner]

I actually do practice shamshir technique under Mushtaq's instruction. The tegha is a mucking big shamshir or tulwar. Many of the strikes and movements are very similar to Clubbell® exercises, so the work with the Clubbells® and the physical movement principles translate well to the sword. When one uses a big, heavy sword it enforces the use of the 7 principles. Otherwise you will hurt yourself.

Some of the old Indian Gada exercises are the same thing squared and cubed. The old maces can be sixty or seventy pounds, less than the largest Clubbell®®. But consider that the weight is concentrated at the end of a much longer handle. Use local muscle strength or swing them with anything but the sort of body mechanics that Scott promotes and it will be "Hello and goodbye Mr. Rotator Cuff." Talk to Mushtaq if you have more questions about these training tools and their proper use.

You don't use Clubbells® as the basis for your sports/work/martial science training, or at least I don't. But many of the motions for some practices are very similar. It's interesting to explore the differences and the similarities, to see what will have to be modified and what things from one field will be pitfalls or give insights into ways to improve one's practice in the other.

[sames]

Todd, my sword practice is limited to european weapons (mainly longsword which weighs in a 3-4 pounds, has a center of balance fairly close to the crossguard and is used two handed... so doesn't seem to weigh anything (until you've been swinging it for 2 hours)). Approximately what is the length, weight and center of balance on these weapons your exploring (tegha, shamshir, tulwa, etc...)? I'm mainly curious what "big heavy sword" means?

[jasonB]

Coach Jones - Out of curiosity, what do you think of the practice, sometimes seen in CIMA, of using really big weapons to train proper internal body mechanics? Do you believe there's value to this? And how do the training goals and effects compare to those of Clubbell work?

[Coach Jones]

Jason,

It's a valid question. Their are a few "heavy weapons" related to Internal Martial art, not nearly as many by far as in other "external" martial arts.

The trouble comes in when you get into "stimulate don't simulate". If your goal is to develop skill with a heavy weapon, working with it is the best way to do that. If you're using it for attributes, I believe their are better ways.

There are a few weapon sets - both in some external and internal methods that use the weapons primarily as an attribute builder with little or no attention paid to developing skills with the particular weapon. Depending on the purpose, these can be great for accomplishing very specific and often peculiar (but in a good way) training goals.

When you relate Clubbell training to weapons practice there are a lot of things to be considered. If your goal is to learn the skills required of a weapon, you have to use that weapon. Attributes can be trained more expediently and efficiently through CST and Clubbells. Structured correctly, 100% of your CST training will crossover into your weapons work and allow you to apply the skills you're learning/have learned better.

I guess part of my bias towards using weapons for CST training. comes from the fact that I assume people would be practicing with a weapon to learn to use that weapon efficiently. Skills and attributes are separate things and have to be trained differently.

Does that answer your question?

[jasonB]

Indeed! Thank you.

[Coach Billew]

Excellent thread!

I just wanted to share a story re: heavy weapons for attribute training. I used to study a style of Ninjutsu, and before I got into CST we used to train with 6ft iron rods to improve our ability to work with 6ft wooden staves. At the time I had no idea, so I did it quite religiously for a while. Immediately after working with the iron staff things would seem better (I think because the wood just felt so much lighter) over time my skills started going down hill with the wood as they went up with the iron. I know now of course that it was because I was getting better at working with the iron which was competing with my skill with the wood, since I was doing the same movements with both. At the time I was just confused. So I discontinued the iron training for a while and my wood skill returned to where it had been and continued to grow.