heavy clubs - what's the big deal?

[CSTNot!]

Dear Dinstinguided Master of Sport,

Please tell us uneducated people in the valley from your home up on the mountain what the big deal is about lifting a heavy club.

So you can lift a heavy club. So what?

[circular]

Begin by returning to the WELCOME MAT to properly fill out your introduction and include your FULL NAME as part of your signature. If you do not, your account deactivates.

Your post borders on deliberate trolling. Refrain from such sarcastic attacks, and your post will be answered.

[Scott Sonnon]

What's the big deal if you can lift heavy clubs. So what?

Firstly, it's the original, the oldest, and the most widely used form of strength training in history.

Let me turn the question back upon you. So you can lift heavy barbells, dumbbells, kettlebells, et cetera. So now what?
Why does lifting heavy things make you stronger? Adaptation.

How does the body adapt? Specifically to the imposed demand.

If one adapts strength specifically, then what is the most effective method of transferring strength to an activity?

The tool which moves in the range and depth most closely approximating real-world activities. The strength adapted from using this tool would have the greatest transferability; that is, if you accept the premise that strength can be transfered at all.

If you do not accept that strength can be transferred at all, then which tool would have the least deleterious impact upon mobility?
The one with the greatest variation in movement - multi-planar movement.

Which tool uses multi-planar movement and can be used to approximate the range and depth of real-world activities, as well as stimulating the physiological profile of those activities?
The only tool which can do this is the Clubbell - for which it was specifically designed.

Won't heavier weighted tools produce greater strength than the light weight Clubbell?
What is light and what is heavy is merely a perception of the Central Nervous System. Anyone who has just picked a Clubbell off the ground knows that the Leverage Principle caused by the Displaced Center of Mass multiplies the actual effort by 3-4X its "true" weight. Furthermore, the Pendulum Principle caused by the Torque Production of swinging weight rather than merely lifting it, multiplies the force production exponentially (i.e. to move the Clubbell twice as fast requires four times the force.)

If the Clubbell can produce such incredible force of effort taxing the CNS, then why is it used primarily as a "performance enhancement" tool rather than a power lifting tool?
Because real-world challenges rarely involve problems of strength deficits, but rather poor ability to absorb and retranslate force. The Clubbell is unique in that within all three planes, one must absorb and retranslate the weight (despite the Displaced Center of Mass and the Torque Production.)

Wouldn't the Clubbell be better designed like a dumbbell so that you could swing more weight without the grip failing?
Not without lessening the unique challenge the Clubbell presents. The unique Lateral Grip Distraction (a 'neck' instead of a 'bar') removes the weakest link in all real-world strength - the grip. For real-world activities, force is primarily transmitted through and by the hands. Real-world strength must begin there, and no other tool does this better and more comprehensively than the Clubbell.

Why would a tool designed with "lighter" actual weight, but high perceived effort (Torque, Leverage, Distraction) be more effective than heavy "true" weight?

Heavy actual weight at worst leads to injuries, immediate or cumulative; at best can be done only infrequently and not into old age. Heavy actual weight cannot be used to rehabilitate an injured or recovering area. Heavy actual weight cannot be moved for multi-planar mobility, and cannot be used to approximate the range and depth of real-world activities.

So, you can't swing a heavy Clubbell? So now what?
http://www.circularstrengthmag.com/images/dare.gif

In the words of Legendary Strongman, John Brookfield:

I have found that this kind of training seems to simulate real life much better than traditional weight lifting. For example, with weights the pressure is always going towards the ground. However, in all sports -- such as wrestling, tennis, or golf -- the pressure is very rarely going towards the ground. This is one reason that I feel the Clubbell is so effective. The different swinging motions and Circular Strength Training™ seem to translate into real life in a great way.

Grip strength is also vital to any athlete and to survival itself. This is because no matter how strong your upper body is, you cannot utilize that strength without strong hands. Also, when hand strength is developed, it seems to last throughout a person's lifetime, while other strength seems to fade. This is another reason why the Clubbell is so effective. They greatly enhance your grip strength and endurance.

[Mike]

Scott, this guy's obviously a troll, look at his screen name!

[Scott Sonnon]

Maybe he's trolling. Maybe he's "not." Regardless, everyone gets one fair chance and one sincere response. If he manifests as a troll after our fair shake, then that is his baggage to carry, and not our's with which to deal. Regardless, we all benefit from improving our competency to handle any inquiry.

[daniel juson]

Scott,
I really admire your (and rmax's) sincere and fair communication to all people. Tis rare bro in any biz. I know I might not have the tendency to be fair to troll 'inquiries'. :lol: Thanks for setting an example.

Sincerely,
Dan

[rbibbs]

"Not knowing" is a transient condition; no one escapes passing through it.

"Refusing to learn" is a 'choice' and people are free to make it. But nobody comes here to defend their lack of knowledge. It produces clutter, and that's what the "digital landfill" is for.

Rick

[CSTNot!]

[content deleted by Forum Admin]

[circular]

This individual has been banned and deleted. We apologize to forum for letting this one sneak through registration process.

[JasonE]

Heck, I'm impressed at the 9-minute :!: response time to wipe this one out following their last post. :P

[James Boelter]

This same moron popped up over at the DD forum (as RKC Not) with basically the same attitude, only he singled out one forum member he claims to know personally and proceded to flame him non-stop. Even the irascible knuckleheads (and I mean that as a compliment) at IronGarm are sick of this guy.

He claims he runs a boxing club. I can't imagine any real coach who gives a fig about training, health, life or people in general wasting his (and our) time in such a manner. Or maybe he's the OTHER kind of coach...you know, like Coach McGurk on 'Home Movies' (Sunday nights on 'adult swim' on the Cartoon Network).

It's sad, really. I'd hate to see the inside of this guy's head. I imagine it to be cold gray emptiness, desolation, burning heaps of toxic waste, howling bitter winds, starving mongrels rooting through the garbage piles and sniper fire in the background.

You know, like February in Omaha. :lol:

[Niko]

It's sad, really. I'd hate to see the inside of this guy's head. I imagine it to be cold gray emptiness, desolation, burning heaps of toxic waste, howling bitter winds, starving mongrels rooting through the garbage piles and sniper fire in the background.

Funny thing is, that's how I feel now that I have kicked carbs.

[Dan Chomycia]

Guys,


It's sad, really. I'd hate to see the inside of this guy's head. I imagine it to be cold gray emptiness, desolation, burning heaps of toxic waste, howling bitter winds, starving mongrels rooting through the garbage piles and sniper fire in the background.

You know, like February in Omaha.

&


Funny thing is, that's how I feel now that I have kicked carbs.

:lol: ROTFLMAO :!:


My other Clubbell is a Bruiser :!:

[Coach Jones]

It's a funny thing with guys like "CSTNot"(aka RKCNot). Everytime I read a post like that I think two things. One part of me wants to choke the life out of him, but then there's the part that sees it as evidence that CST is breaking new ground in the world of strength/fitness.

No one rails against the Thighmaster because no one is threatened by it. No one worries that somehow there own training is less than complete without it.

Hate isn't the opposite of love, INDIFFERENCE is.

So for helping to prove that i'm on the right path, I say a big thank you to CSTNot.......

...But i'd still like to choke the life out of him :lol:

-Brandon Jones, CST

[bill cogswell]

There will always be those who are green-eyed with jealousy. This same guy has been spamming the martialtalk forums as well, sad really. Imagine if people like this put forth the effort into training that they put into trolling?

[Connie Brown]

[quote]
Wouldn't the Clubbell® be better designed like a dumbbell so that you could swing more weight without the grip failing?
Not without lessening the unique challenge the Clubbell® presents. The unique Lateral Grip Distraction (a 'neck' instead of a 'bar') removes the weakest link in all real-world strength - the grip. For real-world activities, force is primarily transmitted through and by the hands. Real-world strength must begin there, and no other tool does this better and more comprehensively than the Clubbell®.


Why is a "neck" better at developing grip than a "bar?" Thickness, or hand position relative to weight, or both, or something else?

I know Coach has written elsewhere about having the weight balanced on both sides of a "handle" is easier on the grip than when the weight is not so balanced.

[Jrichardson]

Hand position relative to weight. A bar (in the middle of the weight) doesn't create the kind of inherent instability that a neck does, so it doesn't stimulate grip adaptation as well. A dumbbell will basically hit your hand about the same way no matter what you do with it. With a "necked" weight, your grip has to be active and dynamically adaptable in addition to just being strong.

Also, with a "neck" as opposed to a "bar", you can immediately and very finely alter the resistance just by changing your grip position, if you have to.

[Scott Sonnon]

Jon's spot on.

One further comment - with a bar grip, the finger bones create a 'structural' purchase for the weight pulling against them. However, with a neck grip, the fingers only have a muscular purchase for the weight against them. In other words, with a dumbbell, barbell or kettlebell, the weight pull against the fingers, whereas with the Clubbell the weight pulls through the fingers. The neck grip of the Clubbell creates the greatest demand on grip strength.

Since strength is primarily transmitted through and by the hands, and since your brain allocates the greatest amount of grey matter to the hands, the training of effect of the Clubbell is superior.

[Charlie]

btw. this guy just posted on rec.martial-arts, and its clear now he's the same guy from before ('So for the records dont get huffy. I'm not a troll, but I call it like I see it'). and he signs off 'JP, CST Not!' so it was suggested he is actually John Perone, longtime cyber-stalker / psycho many will remember

~charlie laidlaw

[Doug Szolek]

Hate isn't the opposite of love, INDIFFERENCE is.

Good words Brandon but I'd like to do you one better. To me the opposite of Love is not indifference, it is Fear. We as Body-Flowing Knuckledraggers are constantly working to release tension/fear stored in ourselves so that in effect we can be more open/loving to our surroundings.

This scares the hell out of most meat-heads who wear their muscle like body armor to protect them from ever having to really love anything and open themself up to the vulnerability that goes with the responsibility of love.

And what happens when you scare a meat-head? They react the only way they know how, like a child going through the "contrary phase" where no matter what evidence is presented in support of that which they oppose, they consistently reject its validity. Luckily most of us grow out of this :wink: .

In anycase, when someone asks me what the big deal is about swinging heavy clubs, I will only pray that it happens face to face so that I can hand them a Bruiser and say, "Your right it's probably not a big deal. But just to prove this why don't you show me how easy it for you and how much of the strength you've cultivated from your bench press and your barbell row can you now transfer to this task."

[Scott Sonnon]

Brandon and Doug spoke well.

Allow me to state this for the record. Don't get involved in the drama, or fitness will become a liability rather than an asset.

There is NO ideal system. There is only the best approach for you.

How do you know what is the best approach for you?

Well, firstly, rely upon your own intuition. If something doesn't sound right, feel right or look right, then probably it isn't right for you. You don't need to understand and be able to articulate why it is not right for you. You only need to feel confident that your gut says it isn't. That point is inarguable.

Secondly, if you have deliberately looked at your personal beliefs (read here - what you value, and how you prioritize your personal hierarchy of values), then hold the approach against your value hierarchy. Where do the values of the approach fall upon the hierarchy of your personal values? For instance, are you a Power Tower or a Lean Machine? Does your fitness approach facilitate or compete with that natural disposition?

All of the empirical evidence, throughout history, points to the fact that if you follow your intuition, espouse an approach which enhances your natural predisposition, and remain both disciplined and flexible, you will achieve more, go farther, delve deeper than ANY "system" promoted by any person, group or organization.

Does the CST approach match your personal value hierarchy?

Look at my post above again and read in-depth the Clubbell 'approach'. If the values expressed match your personal hierarchy of values, then it will enhance your life. If your gut conflicts with what you read, then it will not. It's really as simple as that.

Don't mistake the drama for the approach. Be confident in your opinion, but realize it's just your opinion. It's not The Absolute, General Truth, just your relative, local one.

If you feel so inclined to field questions regarding your preferred approach, don't be afraid to state simply why your approach furthers your values. Your values, and their priority are inviolable, and you are not obligated to defend them whatsoever.

If your values are under attack, realize firstly that only a person who believes that their values (and their hierarchy) 'should' be the values (and hierarchy) of everyone, would attack the values (or their hierarchical arrangement) of another individual.

Secondly, realize that this is not a true threat, because no one can assail your values (or their arrangement), because the one thing in life you can't do is change a person's mind (only the individual chooses so.)

Lastly, realize that if you feel the need to defend your values, then that is your issue (and not the would-be attacker's); and if you act upon that insecurity, you've entered into the soap-opera of industry drama.

Finally, if drama's your thing, then more power to you. But please don't try to recruit people to it here. We all have enough drama from which we're trying to detach.