Cold water dowsing

[Charles Long]

I've heard of cold water dowsing being practised in Russia and I've met a couple from Russia who practice it faithfully every morning. Basically, the go outside in the morning with a bucket of cold water and pour it over their heads. It's supposed to raise your core body temperature for a fraction of a second which supposedly kills all those nasties that cause colds and flu. Has anyone here tried it and does it work?

Charles Long

[James Boelter]

Haven't personally tried it consistently, but the practice comes recommended by several respected figures in our community, including Vladimir Vasiliev (one of the foremost representatives of 'Systema' in North America) and Pavel Tsatsouline (of Russian Kettlebell Challenge and DragonDoor repute). Steve Maxwell, another well know grappling and fitness authority, also performs this little ritual.

Just finished a required course in hydrotherapy for massage certification, and I can tell you the 'why' of it. It's much like you said: The percussive impact of the cold water allows you to make it much colder than you could normally tolerate in a shower or a bath. A very brief, intense percussive cold water douse causes a protective 'reflexive' effect as the body tries to protect itself from the threat of the cold. This leads to vasodilation and a 'heating' effect (as you mentioned). The body performs its best 'chemotaxis' (white blood cells, etc, ability to seek out and eliminate pathogens) when the body has a core temperature of about 102-103 F, so that heat surge is supposed to do exactly what you mentioned. Again, the more intense the cold, the more powerful the reflexive effect, and the sensation of the 'impact' of the water is supposed to compete for the number of available thermo and mechanoreceptors in your skin so it doesn't 'hurt' as bad.

That's the theory. My teacher believes it does have a certain validity, although he simply practices cold water showers while rubbing his skin with a brush or mitten or loofah to keep the cold from becoming intolerable. (That might be a better alternative, give your neighbors a little less to stare and gossip about).

[Charles Long]

Thanks, James. I took a 2 day seminar with Vladimir once and it was he and his wife who told me about it. They said they were even doing it on their baby. I was just wondering if there was anything to it or if it was just an old wive's tale type of thing. I get up at 4 in the morning for work so my neighbors wouldn't be seeing me but I'm going to have to work up some courage before trying it.

Charles Long

[bob_stra]

Oh.... I *always* jinx myself when I say this....

I'm writing an article for CST mag (either next issue or one after) on the scientific rationale of cold water dousing. There's some interesting, if hard to find, research on the effects of cold water. Pain numbing, increased WBC, fat loss, etc.

Let's just say.... I think there's something to it. Or I wouldn't be spending half an hour outside at 5AM dumping buckets of cold water over my head while doing Z health.

(Actually, I'm kinda strange, so, yeah, I 'prolly would anyway ;-)

[Brett Jacques]

Cold water dowsing is great but someone needs to dig out Scott's reply to someone about diminishing returns. The body adapts so periodic breaks from dowsing are recommended.

My group used to do it after hard training and most felt it improved recovery time but we took it to the extreme with icy cold buckets (4 one after the other)

I tried to get Vlad Vasiliev and Oleg Taktarov to do cold buckets with me one time, they were having none of it. I teased Vlad mercilessly but he also said that doing it too much reduces its power to affect the body.

[JasonE]

When I studied Danzan Ryu Jujutsu, I became temporarily fascinated with some of the training methods used by the founder, Henry Seichiro Okazaki. He was pretty hardcore in many ways, and had to be talked into getting some floor mats when his first American students pointed out that concrete floors were not fun to learn throws and falls on. :roll:

His favored students were subjected to a treatment that I've never had the facilities to try, though it sounds "interesting" :twisted: :

Two baths were prepared:

The first bath was kept at about 105 degrees F. The student would climb into it and stay there for 3 minutes.

The second bath was kept at about 35 degrees F. The student would climb into it immediately after exiting bath #1, and stay there for 3 minutes. During this time, they were to focus on relaxing and controlling their need to shiver and thrash around.

Immediately after climbing out of bath #2, the student would climb back into bath #1 and repeat the whole process for a total of 6 times in each bath. :shock:

Professor Sig Kufferath, one of Okazaki's senior students honored with this training, said it was done 3-5x weekly, and that after about 6 months of it a lightning bolt could strike the ground next to you and you wouldn't jump.

I don't recall any mention of other health benefits derived from this practice, but it's been a long time since I studied DZR. Is anyone familiar with a similar practice?

When I lived in Duluth, the Polar Bear Club would sit in icehouse saunas, then leap through holes cut in lake ice to enjoy the frigid waters. I've heard that this is popular in parts of the former USSR also. :idea:

The closest I've gotten is sitting in the hot tub, steam room, or sauna at a hotel or health club, then jumping into the deep end of the pool. :?

Anybody know if this would provide a similar benefit?

[Jarlo Ilano]

As an aside, ice water immersion was a signature treatment by Dr. Kabat (originator of PNF) for multiple sclerosis patients. The lore is that he would carry patients into the freezing lake/river, and they would walk strongly out. The cold was a potent charge for the CNS.

A group of us students did this in school, immersed to our chest in ice water in a Hubbard tank, for a few minutes.... Never again!

Jarlo

[Charles Long]

Cold water dowsing is great but someone needs to dig out Scott's reply to someone about diminishing returns. The body adapts so periodic breaks from dowsing are recommended.


So you're saying if you practice dowsing, you should cycle it just like one should cycle, say echinacea for cold prevention. I'm not an herbalist but I've read that one should take periodic breaks or echinacea will cease to do what it once did for you. Makes sense.

Charles Long

[Charles Long]

I worked my way up to it. Friday I was starting to come down with some crud that's been going around. I think I'm the last person in town to get it. Vladimir's book says to do it once before noon and once before midnight and every 2 hours if you're sick or coming down with something. I must say that it isn't pleasant but I feel really good right after the dowsing and while my crud hasn't gone away yet, I'm not getting symptons near as bad as others (including my wife and kids). So I think I will stick with it and some of children are doing it also. My 15 year old can't wait for some snow so we can do it in that. If I'm still feeling symptons over the weekend, I'm going to try every 2 hours. It's not feasible while I'm working so it's been twice a day. The coldest it's been was 30 degrees faranheit.

Charles Long

[Brett Jacques]

Charles,

There appears to be a point of dimishing returns once adaptation occurs for many things like cold water dowsing.

Echinacea is another story all together. So much misinformation and opinion accepted as fact. I have prescribed echinacea long-term hundreds of times with great success for those that need what it can do. For colds etc. most people whimp out on the dose. While I like Matthew Woods' books on herbalism, I am not a minimalist when it comes to dosing especially for acute conditions.

[Charles Long]

Charles,

There appears to be a point of dimishing returns once adaptation occurs for many things like cold water dowsing.


Brett, I would love to see a complete study on cold water dowsing but don't know if it has ever been done. So what would be the point of diminishing returns for this practice? Does anyone know? When Vladimir talked to you, perhaps he was referring to your practice of dumping 4 buckets one right after the other and not twice a day dowsing as he recommends in his Russian System Guidebook.

He says he learned this health system from Porfiriy Ivanov. If he's wriiten a book, I'd love to see it translated into English.

Here's a quote: "And it must be done twice a day no matter how you feel. This is especially important if you feel sick or have a cold coming on. In fact, in cases where you feel like you might be getting a cold or flu you should perform the procedure every two hours. It will help you fight off the illness very quickly and without any medications."

Take it for what it's worth. I've got some questions about echinacea but will start a new thread on that so that people who are not following this one can jump in. Also, were you at the Russian martial arts deal in Denver several years back? Your name sounds familiar and I'm thinking I met you there. Oleg Taktarove referred to someone as Dr. Brett. Was that you?

Charles Long

[Brett Jacques]

Charles,

Oui, C'etait Moi.

[Jay76]

How young is to young to start cold water dowsing???

[kenpfrenger]

Not sure if she is too young but when my daughter was 7 (last year) she started dowsing with me every so often. I want to get her doing it every day alongside her crazy father :D I'd like to hear some thoughts about dowsing and children.

[Charles Long]

Not sure if she is too young but when my daughter was 7 (last year) she started dowsing with me every so often. I want to get her doing it every day alongside her crazy father :D I'd like to hear some thoughts about dowsing and children.

When I met Vladimir and Valerie Vasiliev, they said they started their children dowsing when only a few days old. That's one perspective on it. My 15 year old dowses, my 11 year old, occasionally. My 6 year old wants to but Mom won't let him. The other 3 have no interest in it.

Charles Long

[Matt Vierra]

During the summer i had the honor and privilege with working with CST Ray Krieger. We would do Warrior Wellness followed by some grueling hill sprints. 90% of the time i felt like vomiting after the sprints. only one time did i have the pleasure of actually doing it. Wow, that was a great workout. My main point, however, is that we ALWAYS did cold water plunges into the 40-45 degree water. Not only was it cold, but it was live, moving water. i think there is something to the living water, let me know what you all think. Anyway, after 3 or so plunges, completely submerged, for a few seconds, any nausea was cured. Absolutely cured! It's incredible, not to mention the cool effects like the blood shunt that your body does, to protect the core. I wish i lived closer to a cold river--i'd do it all the time.

[Coach Flanagan]

I'm curious about tribe member's experiences using cold water dousing or immersion shortly after intense resistance training. Reasoning is telling me it would slow recovery time by inhibiting circulation to muscle tissue but my intuition is telling me otherwise.

-Sean

[Arluk]

In my experience as long as you don't overdo the cold it can have a benificial effect on recovery time. Yes it shunts blood back down to the core but only as long as the body feels cold. Feels and are cold are not necesarily the same things. As long as your overall body temp does not fall too fast or get too low you'll get a hycrotherapy effect. ie flushing the oxygen and nutrient depleted blood out of the muscles, then after the douse or immersion as the superficial layers of tissue rewarm they will be flushed with oxygen/nutrient enriched blood. I've also heard that a quick cold shower, dousing or immersion alkalyzes the body but I do not know the mechanism works for sure.