Beta-endorphin cycles

[Connie Brown]

On the BE cycle theory:

This 4-day crash after a beta-endorphin high is something that has been observed experientially by DesMaisons, working with hundreds of people over 10+ years in her theory of sugar sensitivity.

(BTW The crux of her theory is that "sugar sensitive" describes a subgroup of people who have a particular combination of lively blood sugar, low serotonin, and low beta-endorphin. It is NOT a theory that some people have these things separately; that is accepted. The theory is that these things happen together in some people. )

I have experienced the 4-day thing myself but in a lesser way (I am not a low BE person).

It is easy to test. One watches reactions in the 3-5 day period after an event that floods the body with BEs and see if a weird dark mood descends seemingly out of the blue. (The Arnold? that should be exciting and intense)

All it is is, somewhere around 4 days after a BE high, comes a BE crash. If the person is highly upregulated with BE receptors, the high is very high and the crash is very low. If the person has downregulated BE, the high and crash are both less pronounced. But in both cases - highly upregulated or not - the 4-day effect seems to show up.

What a BE high feels like - we know this, it's a runner's high: on top of the world, connected, hopeful, solution-oriented, sensitive, compassionate, intuitive, high tolerance for pain, taking personal responsibility.

What low BE feels like (it is interesting that these feelings are chemical and don't seem connected to events): low pain tolerance, reactive, feeling "done to" by others, low self-esteem.

If there is also a low serotonin component: angry, reactive, scattered/blocked, impulsive, flying off the handle, depressed.

Here's a story from the forum, the thread Ghosts in the Furnace (http://www.circularstrengthmag.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=610).

The first time I read it, I thought to myself, that sounds like low BE being raised by intense exercise. Note that the things he mentions to get rid of the ghosts are all things that cause the body to flood with BE (alcohol, drug, sex, food)

(I have cut, but not re-worded) :


Often times, I find myself drifitng into emotional states that are angry or depressive. ... I am in a bad mood for no good reason. ... come out of thin air(seemingly) and have no objective truth. Despite this I still suffer their effects- distraction, anger, body aches from excess tension.

In the past, I ahve probably tried every method known to man to dispell these ghosts. Alcohol, drugs,sex, food, sleep, none has consistently been effective, and often the side effects are worse than the symptons.

... And what I have noticed is the grounding effect of an intense training session, how the ghosts seem to lose their strength, and disappear early in a training session. The challenge and pain of a workout seems to me like a furnace, where what one really is, is purified , and the illusions that we cling to are consumed. I become more focused as the fatgiue grows, and the ghosts and the accompanying symptoms fade away. The internal dialogue stops, and at the very end of the training sessions, when I stand at the end of my garage in the cool night air, the silence of the night is matched by the silence in my mind, and the heightened awareness of my physical self.
...

Is that what you were asking?

[Scott Sonnon]

That's precisely what I was asking, Connie. Thank you.

It strikes eerily close to home. I've always associated the 'crash' as an expected come-down "Man-off-the-moon" syndrome. Anyone who has seen me compete, lecture or perform could say that I may appear "tightly-wound" by the high energy level I have... but the people who live with or around me know that this is the peak... with the valley only a few days afterwards.

My company has even adopted, out of necessity, scheduling events no less than one week apart, optimally 2 weeks apart, because on average it takes me 6 days to switch-on again after recovering from a prior event.

Hmmmm... any resources to which you can refer me?

Brett, Vince - your input here?

[Connie Brown]

For starters you could read Potatoes not Prozac which goes more into the science part. There are also pretty beginner-level articles at radiantrecovery.com, under "Science" and "Resource Center."

But for you I would just say to email Kathleen at radiantkd@mindspring.com, or I can do an email introduction and have her mail you.

She has an online "tribe" much like this one and I was gushing about Clubbells over there so she has sure heard of this forum.

You guys weirdly are using the same words. OR! maybe it is a case of "when the student is ready, the teacher(s) appear". Or maybe you both secretly attend some left-coast woo-woo leader school:

Sonnon: thoughts are the product of how you move
DesMaisons: thoughts are the product of what you eat

Sonnon: Clubbells are my passion to share with the tribe
DesMaisons: I am a warrior for my tribe

Sonnon: incremental progression and beginner's mind
DesMaisons: baby steps and beginner's mind

Sonnon: take away fear-reactivity, recover your birthright
DesMaisons: take away addictive food, recover your birthright

Sonnon: nothing you have experienced is wasted
DesMaisons: nothing you have experienced is wasted

Sonnon: it's what you fight FOR - family, tribe, country
DesMaisons: it is the community that we work for

[Scott Sonnon]

When I return, this will be a top priority to investigate. Thanks for your time, Connie. Really 'preciate it, my friend.

[Connie Brown]

Right back atcha. :wink: I am holding you in my thoughts this week fer sure.

[mountaingoat]

That's my first post

Name: Federico Rudisi - Italy
Height: 175 cm (sorry I don't know inches)
Weight : 63 Kg
Age: 30
Body fat: 6-8%

In ultrarunning the B-E cycle is really big and everybody I know who practice this sport experience it.
I'm a mountain ultrarunner and I always had a big B-E down 4-5 days after the race (up to 26 miles race not that much but after longer race a lot). I usually eat moderate complex carbs (no simple one and almost no sugar) but during races I carb up more, even if I keep on eating a fair amount of fat. I dare say since I have let down simple sugar my B-E crash is decreased (my wife still says I get really umpleaseant and intollerant), but what worked better for me, I think , is that for a couple of days after the race I eat lots of food(protein-fat and carb) and then for 36-48 hrs I eat mostly fruits and nuts and rest a lot (just easy swimming or easy biking and dynamic mobility-flex),I take a massage if possible and sauna. In this way my mood isn't that bad.

[Brett Jacques]

Connie, good stuff as usual.

The whole opioid thing in humans is vastly complicated and potatoes not prozac makes it accessible.

Opiate receptors are fickle buggers and there are many endogenous opiates not just beta-endorphin. Many other molecules can bind to the receptors and even make them act differently. Such is the case with something called casomorphins from milk which can bind mu and delta opiate receptors causing very strange behaviors in some people including schizophrenia and autism.

It is interesting that the runner's high is caused by prolonged cortisol output from long exercise bouts. This causes a massive release of opiates but what most do not know is that this opiate release is preparing the body for death (from capture by a wild animal). Now you impending death won't be so painful when you don't die the opiates slow everything down, all bodily functions. Then you release more epinephrine to start everything up again. This is one clue as to why marathoners don't live any longer and suffer osteoporosis like everyone else.

The trick is to master the endurance gait so that the cortisol output is minimal.

Scott, your crash after seminars will take longer to recovery from as you age. 1 week is too short for recovery and two weeks is minimal

[Vbrown]

Hi Coach,

The TCM approach would be to take a nearly invasive questioning series on the whole picture of you life habits. I've got a pretty good guess of what the TCM result would be...but irresponsible of me to guess online

MANY of the poor eating choices resulting in various peaks and valleys is classically refered to as some variation on the "spleen deficiency" (no, not the organ structure....but interestingly, many of the functions are similar to that of the pancreas and endocrine system...)

I've gone into it indepth with my nutrition prof. and I constantly find it shocking/delightful two divergent cultures have observed, described and treated the same dysfunction.

Thanks to Connie and Brett for pointing me to some great looking resources. Clarity yeilds confidence.

Regards,

Vince

[James Boelter]

This really is an excellent and eye-opening topic and thread. I plan to spend a fair amount of time running down studies and related links on the topic, now that I know it exists.

Just for giggles, and because we are talking natural rhythms in the Body-Mind- did anyone ever read the book 'Consistent Winning'? That was a fascinating look at training and recovery cycles based on, of all things, the Golden Ratio and Fibonacci sequences. For instance, the authors felt very strongly based on their research that a sudden significant increase in training volume (or intensity) almost invariably led to burnout, overtraining or outright injury in something like two weeks or 8-12 workouts, because that was how long it takes for the body-mind to use up its nervous, hormonal and muscle system reserves. They had several recommended strategies for planning peak performance days with 'three steps forward, two steps back' rhythms (I guess you could call them microcycles and macrocycles) with 7 day lead times, 3 week lead times, 3 month lead times, etc. I lost my copy during a household move and it's out of print now; I always wished I had read and researched it more thouroughly.

[Connie Brown]

Wow James, what an interesting idea. If I weren't so lazy I would go to powellsbooks and start a search.

On the three steps forward and two steps back. I went to this talk on how bodies got disconnected from spiritual practice in the Western/Christian world and the speaker talked about how many, many cultures have a dance with two steps forward, one back which represents progress of body/mind/spirit. It has a name - "tri" something. sorta reminds me of the incremental progression idea of ratcheting too.

[mountaingoat]

Connie, nice article on the mag.
Lately I'm doing a little experiment: I'm training for a 55miles mountain running race held in the beginnig of july in Swiss, so since mid march I'm doing two long run a month (30-40 miles) apart from normal training. I'm experimenting different percentage of food (carb-fat-protein)and diferent food and drinks source, during and after this long run to see in which way this can effect (if it can) B-E and the 3-5 days later crash. I'm keeping a log and I will post in the forum about my experiment.

Ciao

Federico

[Connie Brown]

that's wonderful news. We need real data from real athletes!

Looking forward to what you find out.

[mountaingoat]

Last sunday I had the opportunity to talk to Monica Casiraghi, a young italian ultra runner who just won the 100Km road running world champinship in Taiwan (7hrs and something...). She runs everyday twice a day for an average of 120/150 km a week (she hits 200-220 km/week before an important race) and so I was asking her about her diet and she said she's not an ordinary runner because she eats quite differently from others ultra-pro and she always has to argue with her coach because he doesn't agree with yhe way she eats.
Typical day: Wake up 5.45 A.M. she goes running and for BREAKFAST 1 espresso no sugar - 8 A.M. Office till 5.30 P.M. - LUNCH 1 or 2 fruits in season - 6P.M. Running - DINNER steamed/broiled/grilled fish (1-2 times a week meat usually chiken and 1-2 a month eggs and cheese) and a mixed salad dressed with olive oil lemon salt and pepper (normal size no huge warrior style meal). She doesn't take any supplement a part from electrolyte in hot season otherwise just plain water. Before a race she eats an energy bar (50g carbs 8 g prot and very little fat).
I asked her about B-E crash and she said she re-start running the day after a race and her mood changes minimally (she said she 's very positive and always smiling to life) and the diet remain always the same.
I congratulated with her :shock: .

ciao
Federico

[Connie Brown]

how interesting. Is she really tiny? I didn't see a lot of calories in that.

For an official "sugar-sensitive" person as identified in Potatoes not Prozac, that would be a familiar pattern of running off the BE high of exercise and starvation. Works great until it is no longer sustainable (and it eventually becomes a problem for a sugar sensitive person - you run the machine into the ground, literally)

Another thing that comes into play with this pattern is that the person thinks they are doing great, because they get strokes for being such an athletic powerhouse. This reinforcement makes it hard for the person to be in tune with negative consequences of exercise addiction, like losses of LBM or relationship problems or injury or recurrent illness, the whole ball o wax.

[mountaingoat]

Connie, she's probably 160/165cm height and around 50kg.
By the way, last saturday (29 may) she won the European 100 Km road running championship.

Federico