Confused about Mills...

[Nonomori]

I've read the description of Shield Cast + Inward Circle. I've watched the CST video and the clip on the CST certification requirements (http://www.clubbell.tv/newcertreqs.html) page. I've tried it a fair number of times.

And I still don't think I get it.

Maybe it's just the angle on the videos, but I don't see anything like a Shield Cast happening. It looks to me more like an Inward Circle to a Shoulder Cast to an Armpit Cast to an Inward Circle again. But there's that rotation of the torso which complicates things.

When I try doing it myself, I keep bringing the Clubbell over my head during the Armpit Cast portion (so that if I am holding the Clubbell in my right hand, it passes by the left side of my head on the way back to the Inward Circle. I'm not sure whether this is because I am twisting my torso too soon, so that I have to lean to the right in order to maintain balance and momentum, or whether it is because I am twisting too late, so that the Armpit Cast is aimed in the wrong direction.

[crubio]

I've read the description of Shield Cast + Inward Circle.

That would be inward pendulum not inward circle.


I've watched the CST video and the clip on the url, but I don't see anything like a Shield Cast happening.

True. The shield cast gets abreviated for the sake of energy conservation. If you are looking for general strength and conditioning, may I suggest completing a basic shield cast, followed by a basic inward pendulum.


It looks to me more like an Inward Circle to a Shoulder Cast to an Armpit Cast to an Inward Circle again. But there's that rotation of the torso which complicates things.

Therein lies the problem. Do not worry about twisting the torso. Let it happen, and then only enough to allow full range of motion of your arm.


When I try doing it myself, I keep bringing the Clubbell® over my head during the Armpit Cast portion (so that if I am holding the Clubbell® in my right hand, it passes by the left side of my head on the way back to the Inward Circle. I'm not sure whether this is because I am twisting my torso too soon, so that I have to lean to the right in order to maintain balance and momentum, or whether it is because I am twisting too late, so that the Armpit Cast is aimed in the wrong direction.

Review the video for a basic shield cast. If you're holding the CB in your right hand, the tip should go diagonal across the front and over the left shoulder. The middle of the CB passes over your head. When the CB is behind your back and perpendicular to the ground perform the armpit cast coming back over your right shoulder to CTO.

I practice mills this way because I prefer the full shield cast movement. If you want an explanation of the technical mill, the one used in competition. Please repost. But first master the basics. Shield cast and inward pendulum, before combing them.

[Nonomori]

Hmm. Thanks, Christian. I experimented some more, and I think I may have figured out my problem: I wasn't bringing the Inward Circle high enough. When I allow the Clubbell to swing almost to vertical before coming down behind me, the swing to the rear automatically tries to pull my torso around so that an Armpit cast leads back into an Inward Circle again. With a 5-lb. Clubbell this feels really smooth. With a 10-lb. Clubbell it sometimes feels awkward, but other times it feels like it's tracking just right. But I think I know how to practice now.

I watched the video on the certification requirements page again, and I noticed that Coach Sonnon was not swinging his Clubbell as high as I am, but that the end of it was indeed coming down around behind him all the way to his other side. With his heavier and longer Clubbell I imagine that this technique gives him the same inertial effect with less energy expenditure.

I tried the alternating-but-independent Shield Cast and Inward Pendulum, and that works nicely too, but it feels completely different.

Note that my purpose in trying the Mill was neither for general strength and conditioning nor for understanding the competitive movement. My purpose is to work toward meeting the CST certification requirements. It appears to me that the more ballistic nature of the Inward Circle as compared to executing the Shield Cast from CTO will make it easier to satisfy the requirements using the former technique. Assuming, of course, that either technique is acceptable.

I am not particularly concerned about maximizing efficiency, since I have no interest in OCS. So as long as the higher circle is what works for me, I am inclined to continue using it. Of course, once I see what it feels like with 15-lb. Clubbells, I may end up with a completely different impression...

If I am off-base anywhere here, please let me know...

Thanks.

[Coach Billew]

Brent,

I am glad you have found a movement that works better for you, but as Chris pointed out the Mill is a Shield Cast + an Inward Pendulum. So while an Armpit Cast + an Inward Circle is a great exercise it is not a Mill.

As you pointed out the two exercizes feel very different. If you want to be ready for CST certification you need to be practising the Mill.

Now with the Armpit Cast + Inward circle, you seem to have found an exercise that you like and enjoy so by all means keep doing it. It will certainly improve your strength and coordination with the Clubbell. Just understand that it is not the same exercize as the Mill used for CST testing.

PS. I hope to have some suggestions for you in the Help Desk forum by Monday.

Keep Swinging.

[Nonomori]

Hmm. Maybe I do need a description of the technical mill, because it sure seemed to me that what I was doing matched pretty well. And I do like the effect on my shoulders when I bring the Inward Circle around behind me, so I'd like to stick with that if possible. But it sounds like I'd better make sure that I can do the Shield Cast + Inward Pendulum too. My main concern there is the grip, but fortunately certification allows one to choke up, and that should help a lot.

[admin]

Brent,

Something that helped me get the Mill movement down was to imagine I was cracking a whip with a long, fluid motion, practicing with smaller clubs (Indian Clubs and 5lb CB) to get the groove. I've gone to barely being able to do one at all with a 10lb to being able to do 5x10 with the 15s. Incremental progression works wonders. :!: 8)

-Michael Gannon

[Connie Brown]

There is an in-depth discussion of the difference between performance mill and technical mill (for competition) in Doug Szolek's OCS book. Very neat.

Also I was pointed to the article The Mill.. Unloaded (http://www.circularstrengthmag.com/18/brandon1.html) in CST Mag by Brandon. I used a vacuum cleaner wand of no weight and it worked fabulously.

[JClayton]

Hi Brent,

Even though it sounds like I'm only a few steps ahead of you on the Clubbell learning curve, my experience might be helpful to you as I had trouble with the Mill initially too.

First off, if there are any CST instructors near you, a one-on-one session might be what you need. I had a session with CST Vince Brown and it really helped to clear up the various confusions that had arisen through trying to learn off the book and video. There is a list of CST instructors at www.cstcoach.com

Secondly, I would encourage you to spend the time to learn the technique and groove the correct movement with the 10's. I had good results using a medium-sized crescent wrench for ten reps, and then going immediately to the 10 lb Clubbell for a set of ten.

You can get away with technique errors with the 10's, but the 15's are much less forgiving. I got to the point where I was doing a set of 150 Mills (each arm, alternating every 25 reps) with the 10's, but when I got the 15's I literally felt like I was starting over, particularly with my left arm. Little variations in technique and body position are magnified with the 15's and if I hadn't grooved the movement with the 10's, I would have had a very hard time with the 15's. (I've since progressed to 12x12 each.)

Anyway, I hope that might be of some help.

Perhaps I'll see you at a CST training someday. Were you thinking of going to the Delta session, or one in the indefinite future?

Regards,

[Nonomori]

Thanks, y'all. I'm afraid I don't expect to get the OCS book, but I did look at Brandon Jones's article. It really appears to me that I am doing essentially the same move now as Scott Sonnon, except that I am keeping my arm straight all the way through the Inward Circle until about 45 degrees from vertical, whereas Coach Sonnon was starting the bend at the elbow when his swing reached about horizontal. It feels fluid now, even most of the time with the 10-lb. Clubbells. Whether it's technically correct or acceptable is the big question, I guess.

I suppose I may have to wait until I actually get to a CST course to find out, since the nearest CST instructor is several hundred miles away from me.

The good news is that even if I'm a bit off on the form, I can manage about five of the Shield Cast + Inward Pendulum type per arm with a 10-lb. Clubbell, without choking up at all. I know I can do at least eight per arm of the more ballistic type, and I wasn't really testing myself when I did them. (I was working on form, and I just stopped when they started getting hard.) So I'm pretty hopeful that by the time Epsilon Cadre rolls around I'll be ready.

[Nonomori]

Well, my 15-lb. Clubbells arrived. With my right hand, I was able to do a couple of the Shield-Cast-alternated-with-Inward Pendulum variety in pretty good form (I think), but I could not maintain control with the left hand when attempting to return to the CTO position from either the Shield Cast or the Inward Pendulum. The more ballistic variety was less frightening than I expected, but I do not feel like I am going to be able to develop any kind of groove using a 15-lb. Clubbell. So at this point, unless someone has a better suggestion, I think I will focus on doing Mills with the 10-lb. Clubbells for now, and use the 15-lb. Clubbells for more basic exercises like Pendulums.

[Coach Billew]

Brent,

Keep working with the 15. You might just amaze yourself. Understand that you are not just testing your strength with the Clubbell you are learning skills and building new strength. It is amazing how quickly the body can adapt. I remember the first time I tried the Foward Leverage Press on my left hand side I couldn't even move it off my shoulder. The next day after some reflection and unweighted reps I did 3 sets of 12 with only a few hitches. Just for reference I am not a bodybuilder and prior to my working with Clubbells had done no other weight training.

PS. Sorry I am late on training suggestions for you some work I had to do changed from taking a couple of hours to taking most of the last couple of days. I am off tomorrow so I will put up some ideas and a few more questions for you then. Thanks for your patience.

[Nonomori]

Thanks, Slade. I really appreciate your willingness to develop training suggestions for me, and please don't feel any pressure on my account. The way I look at it, I am still in the ramping-up stage where I'm getting used to doing more training, and the most important thing for me right now is to work on form.

Speaking of which, I have every intention of continuing to work with the 15-lb. Clubbells; I just don't intend to try full-fledged Swipes or Mills with them in the very near future. But I have been picking one up every so often and trying a few Inward Pendulums. I could do them pretty reliably with the right hand pretty much from the start, but as early as this morning, I still hadn't managed even one with the left hand. Then when I got home from work this evening and tried again, I did several in a row with the left hand, almost as easily as with the right hand. This wasn't entirely shocking, since we're supposed to have the capacity to transfer physical skills from one side to the other - but it sure wasn't what I was expecting either.

I went on to try some Shield Casts, and again the right hand felt pretty good while the left hand didn't work too well. I also got daring and tried a few Swipes with the 15-lb. Clubbells, and promptly elicited a "grabbing" complaint from my right triceps. (I did some of those elbow and shoulder circles from Warrior Wellness and got it feeling better, though still fatigued.)

Overall, I am pretty well convinced that the way to go is to keep working on the components of form with the 15-lb. Clubbells while I work on the coordinated form with the 10-pounders.