IOUF: Grip confirmation woes

[bob_stra]

I'm having some trouble using the grip confirmation idea from IOUF.

On the video, Scott shows the basic grip confirmation against Ben (red jacket) by grabbing his own lapel and pulling down. This somehow "forever ensconces Ben's tender little knuckles" in the material. Yet when I do it, my partner can very easily just let go of my gi.

Is there something I need to do to the lapel other than pull it down? The way I've been trying it is thus -

He grabs
Using the same side hand as the grabbed lapel, I grab my lapel beneath his grasp
I pull lapel down. His hand is covered in the gi material.

But no joy ;-(

(I can get the 'reverse gi confirmation' - other side hand wraps gi OVER his knuckles - to work ok. Shown on Scott Fabel (blue gi) on video)

One final question - is the basic confirmation really a transitionary move? A means to momentarily trap his hand before setting up a counter grasp? (I can keep the guy locked up indefinitely with the 'reverse gi confirmation')

[anthonyantosh]

hi bob,
i'm no expert, but i have thought about this in my training. i have problems confirming the lapel grip also, but i find that first off i control the fight (he has to counter, not me). second i found that as he pulls his hand out that this is the best time to shoot for a single or double. third, with more practice one does get better. and last but not least, i do a better job with confirming the cuff/sleeve. always do what works for you.
good luck
tony

[Dan Chomycia]

Bob,

In order for his grip to beconfirmed you must be able to inhibit his structure from escaping. It sounds simplistic I know but you must work on it statically and ask this question.

How will the cloth inhibit his structure from moving :?:

[bob_stra]

[quote="Coach Chomycia"]Bob,
How will the cloth inhibit his structure from moving :?:[/
quote]

Thank you. That's actually an excellent point I hadn't considered.

However I'm still not sure *how*. Not that Scott is wrestling for me, you understand ;-) Just trying to figure out what the man had in mind.

I realize that we each must adapt things for ourselves. But I'm not sure I can see any way of using this type of lapel confirmation to manipulate anything. Here are my two sticking points -

(1) I can't achieve significant leverage - my hand is beneath his. So I can't use that hand to really affect his wrist much without displacing my entire structure (neck: forearm : chest: elbow) to "pinch him in". Even in doing this, the control achieved is poor. (yes, I suppose you could force his wrist upwards, but I don't thinks this would achieve anything much in the way of control)

(2) I cannot use that lapel to hold him (no matter how tight you pull, the lapel will not hold anyone's grip there. If he simply lets go there is nothing to confirm him in place). I've tried various things - rolling the gi over his knuckles more, pulling the lapel harder, pulling it in tighter to my chest - nada. IOW If he lets go, I have nothing (or at best, we cancel each other out) If he holds on, I have nothing. This is hardly a confirmation of his grip to my advantage!

I am left to guess that the basic lapel confirmation is meant as a temporary waypoint onto doing something else. A setup.

Has anyone had success, of any kind, in using the grip confirmation I speak of above? I'm keen to hear some examples, cause I'm banging my head against a wall here.

[Dan Chomycia]

Bob,

Relax,

You are probably better off moving on to another part of IOUF, when someone gets too attached to performing something right it usually blinds them from seeing how to do it.
It may come to you later after practicing something else, and then you'll be like, oh why didn't I see that before? :oops:
It has happened to me countless times when learning new skills.

Just let it go for know wait to hear some others explain it and chances are it will come to you.
If I were there to help you we might have better luck but there is still no guarantee you'll get it to work.

By moving on you'll be learning other things that will help increase your overall understanding which my help you learn it later.
We are after all we trying to explain some thing 3 dimensional in a 2 dimensional medium.

[bob_stra]

> Bob,

> Relax

I am relaxed ;-) But curious. And once I get curious, I like to ferret things out.

(Blame it on the limitations of the medium - my body language over here is more of a big "huh?" rather then slumped shoulders depression)

> You are probably better off moving on to another part of IOUF, when
> someone gets too attached to performing something right it usually
> blinds them from seeing how to do it.

Fair enough. Perhaps it will occur to me later on, or perhaps this kind of confirmation isn't really a part of my game. No biggee either way.

Still, I welcome others experiences on the topic, for curiosity's sake alone. Perhaps it will spark some ideas all around.

[Jorge Colon]

Bob,

Please accept my sincere compliments on your thorough examination of the techniques on the IOUF video tape.

I would also point out that you missed part of the real message in Coach Chomycia's response to you. If you'll be open to my response, I will try for both our sakes and for any others out there like yourself.

As you well know IOUF and other videos with explanations of static drills are illustrations (techniques) of principles. The principle was not exactly as you articulated it - grip confirmation - but closer to Coach Chomycia's question to you "How will the cloth inhibit his structure from moving". Yet despite all manner of explanation and dissection of the technique, as Coaches we would be doing you disservice if we robbed you of your RIGHT and ABILITY to explore the PRINCIPLE imparted. This is what I believe Coach Chomycia was alluding to in his last response to you. He was in his own way nudging you into an environment that would allow you to explore by yourself the principle and the feeling behind it.

In the end, dissecting a technique may bring a great deal of clarity and for those reasons alone it is a worthwhile exercise. But if you are to explore your OWN potential (the very principle of ROSS), then you must CREATE your own original techniques. After all, as you know, what are techniques but inventories of another's creations in response to their particular circumstances at the moment. Still it is a good place to start, no? :-)

For me these PRINCIPLES were liberating, and yet as with any freedom, it requires vastly more effort and exploration than my previous experience with martial arts by the dots - no matter how effective they may be in the training hall. :-)

Thank you again for the opportunity; I hope I was able to help you. :-)

Best regards,

[Vbrown]

Perhaps someone can give me some tips on this variation of the question:

When standing, I do ok using IOUF principles. It's not fully natural to me, but I think less than I used to. However, when starting from the knees, it's a whole other beastie. It is MUCH more difficult to lock in his structure when mine is now so much less mobile. And thus the grip fighting is a mess as a result.

Any tips on looking outside the "from the knees" box?

(btw, I have to thank Coachs Dan, Doug and Scott and the rest of the clan who helped out by posts on going to play rather than win. By this change in approach I've learned way more, but as an interesting side effect, I win more often than lose....wierd. Thanks guys.)

Vince

[Dan Chomycia]

Vince,

You are speaking in general terms, so I have to give you a general answer.
Just because you feel less mobile doesn't mean the principles do not apply.
This problem generally comes from practicing IOUF on your feet.

Vince you are and have always been able to practice any principle, within any venue.
Practicing a principle thinking you've got it only to find that when applied to a new venue with out practicing the context can put you at a disadvantage.

:idea:
So a good way to train could be take a principle learn it as depicted, practice it as depicted through static, fluid, and Dynamic drills as depicted, then you will know how to proceed for your particular venue.

:idea: 8)
A better way if you can do it is practice a principle as depicted once so that you have some understanding of it and immediately think of another way to use it, first within the same context so you don't lose your training partner, and then when you can create new ways to use the principle within your particular context.

Many people have trouble deciding to practice a video because it can only be depicted in one venue at a time they think that it isn't their sport so they don't believe they have anything to learn. :roll:

[Vbrown]

Hey Dan,

Pretty much truly stated. Starting from the knees just changes alot of the dynamics and access to his structure and so I'm in the exploring phase of what his balance feels like. The feedback I get is very different from the feedback on the feet. It's like the same language but with a really heavy accent and some slang terms I'm not accustomed too. Part of it is I'm still learning the rules of the practise group I've hooked up with. Nice folks thru and thru. But they expect some modes of training I'm not used to and I don't want to get off on the wrong foot, as it were.

I wish I had a specific example, but I think I just have to keep feeling my way thru it. Thanks for the heads up though.

The whole thing is so much fun when going into it as a puzzle solving experience rather than a weird competition to make me feel good.

Thanks again,

Vince

[Dan Chomycia]

Vince,


I wish I had a specific example,

Give me something specific that you have been working on, and I will do my best to help.

I also sounds like you are within a group of people with a particular pattern. It's probably has a good place in your training.

It might also be beneficial to have a like minded training partner to work more specifically on your particular problem areas so that you can develope faster.

[Vbrown]

Hey Dan...here's an example.

Starting from the knees, he takes a collar and sleeve grip. The sleeve is gripped in a "pistol" fashion. He then leans into me in a sort of parody of joint mass center.

Now being on the knees (as part of the agreed upon rules), his base is very wide, center of gravity very low and I can't seem to figure a way to cut thru his center line. With my lack of mobility (compared to the feet) it's much more challenging to use his grip on me to control him.

Now my success in this situation is that I don't get bulled around like my classmates. I can control his efforts upon my structure fairly well, but have yet to find a way to be proactive rather than just reactive.

and that pistol grip is a booger to break too.

So...what have you got for me? Something evil I hope...

V

[Dan Chomycia]

Vince,

Sorry for my late reply I have been recovering from an exciting CST.


Now being on the knees (as part of the agreed upon rules), his base is very wide, center of gravity very low and I can't seem to figure a way to cut thru his center line. With my lack of mobility (compared to the feet) it's much more challenging to use his grip on me to control him.

Try this exercise at home, and let me know the Results.

From the knees, move to a shinbox to the right, and then to the left.

Do this as fluidly as possible allowing your hips to lead the movement.

NOTE: When on your knees make sure your instep is flat on the floor. So that you can move smoothly and easily.

Talk to you soon.