View Full Version : Question regarding CB volume training...
10-02-2003, 08:51 AM
My 15# CBs arrived last night and I found the weight to be a good starting weight for strength work and in time, I'm sure the rep count will increase for higher rep training. I bought CBs to add another training tool to my fast-paced endurance-strength circuits (including KBs, sledgehammers and body weight exercises). My initial CB workout found the rep count at 10 (with a slight choke up the handle) for inner/outer pendulum, armpit cast, shield cast, shoulder cast, cleans, swipes and mills. The sets ended at a point where the control at call-to-order started to fade. The 10 count level seems too low for endurance-strength and feels more like pure strength work.
Somewhere I recently read that Steve Maxwell uses lighter CBs because he is not that much interested in strength gains but is more focused on endurance for his sport, BJJ. I got the impression that he uses 5 & 10# CBs for training volume. I may be mistaken about the exact weight but it was lower then I expected for Steve. That judgement could be merely a result of my very limited experience with CBs.
With endurance-strength as a goal, what CB target rep count (volume), set/rest ratio, overall workout time length & workout frequency would produce the best cardio improvement, endurance-strength gains, fat loss and lean mass retention (or, even better, increase)? (Don't want much, do I?)
The question is very complex and I know that there no simple answers but even broad guidelines would be helpful at this point of my CB training.
10-02-2003, 09:13 AM
I have pairs of 5's 10's and 15's. I feel as you do that using the 15 feels more like strength training rather than endurance. My grip gives out before anything else. Unlike with KB where I can get a high RPE doing short sets of snatches (eg 6l+6R;6l+6r as one set) for several sets or for time as in EDT. Last time I tried that I got about 144 snatches (1.5pood) and was trashed!!
I never get anywhere near that level with CB. Maybe if I went down to the 10....I have found, and Coach Sonnon showed us this at the CST, that if you add a squat or lunge to many of the CB moves you WILL get a much more strenuous workout.
So for the inward/outward circles or pendulums move your legs with the CB into a deep squat and back out. Or with armpit casts alternate legs into a forward lunge as you alternate arms.
Either will toast your legs.
Give your self some time to get used to the many different CB exercises, perfect your form THEN worry about going for high reps/ high RPE workouts with them
Hope this helps
10-02-2003, 09:33 AM
Steve works with the Fly weight class Clubbells to release residual muscular tension, for prehab, and for dynamic flexibility and dynamic mobility. His level of activity precludes heavier Clubbell work since his elite athleticism requires a delicate balance to avoid overtraining - as a result, he proactively uses Clubbells to remove patterns which facilitate over-training. You should call his attention to this thread to respond to questions about his Clubbell work.
As one of Pavel's cadre, I assume you've learned the value of patience and incremental progression to refine technique, so we won't have to rush results at the risk of form in order to meet any immediate gratification expectations, am I right? If so, then the following guidance will help you:
You must concentrate on local muscular endurance to wield Clubbells before focusing on training. That means grooving the skills you want to eventually train. If ultimately, your goals include cardio, fat-loss and lean muscle retention, then you want to work up to total body action complexity such as seen in the Swipes and Mills. This means that you need to focus on the components of those routines before attacking them: for Swipes, the Basic Arm Swing and the Armpit Cast; and for Mills, the Shield Cast and Inward Pendulum. Practice, don't train, those four core lifts for 3-4 weeks approximately 2-3X/wk unless you're not training in any other method in which case you can increase your frequency to 5-6X/wk. Keep your effort submaximal: no fatigue since you're practicing not training.
Key Performance Goals in Practice: ---> Develop the tight-loose-tight grip protocol to avoid over-grip and arm-pump.
---> Develop your loaded position and hip snap in the Basic Arm Swing.
---> Develop your contralateral stabilization in the Inward Pendulum.
---> Develop your lat-flair in the Shield Cast
---> Keep your wrist in line with your forearm in the Shield Cast.
---> Develop your ability to keep your elbows inward on the Armpit Cast.
---> Integrate Performance Breathing into each core exercise.
After 3-4 weeks, then it will be time to sew these core lifts into the Combination Routines: Swipes and Mills. They are highly sophisticated exercises, so don't be in a rush to jump up to them. Focus on the components. Even athletes preparing for Sport Clubbell competitions break down these event components to refine their practice. After your initial 3-4 weeks, practice your Swipes and Mills for another 3-4 weeks. Same guidelines as above.
Then, you can begin to train. I'll have your thread moved to the Training Program Design Help section. What I suggest is that you create a daily diary of your sessions in the Personal Training Logs section so that as you share your discoveries, other athletes and coaches can contribute feedback and suggestions on your progress.
Once you move through this initial 6-8 weeks, we can work through your protocol scheme for achieving your goals of added muscular endurance, cardio endurance, fat-loss, and lean muscle retention.
Keep us apprised of your progress in the Training Logs section!
10-02-2003, 06:30 PM
Since May, a broken ankle, a broken finger, shoulder rehab and now a healing fissure have affected the direction and content of my training. This summer has been a real lesson in turning "lemons into lemonade".
Scott is right on regarding patience and with the concept of learning the newer movements before true exercise can begin. I needed another reminder. When I began rowing, it took an entire season of on-water rowing to develop enough skill to generate "racing power". The finer motor skills took that much time to catch up with the aerobic capacity. The whole season felt like I was under achieving but the next season was just the opposite and worth the time spent learning the skill properly. Kettlebells and Clubbells are no different. Thanks, I needed that.
Coach is right regarding Steve's CB use, you have to understand Steve rolls alot. I've been there when he goes hours with guys 50-75 lbs heavier. Or teaches multiple private's back to back. Don't underestimate the value of going thru as much WW type ROM stuff as possible with the light CBs. It's a great fixer/bulletproofing for the inevitability of going outside the groove with the heavy one's.
10-03-2003, 12:25 PM
In Dr Siff's book Supertraining it states the optimal range for developing strength endurance is between 25 and 60 reps.
10-03-2003, 01:46 PM
Good point to address, Chris. In CT4CS, the Training Chart (p163) suggests:
Endurance (muscular) 12-25 reps
Endurance (cardio) 25+ reps
Powered by vBulletin™ Version 4.0.7 Copyright © 2013 vBulletin Solutions, Inc. All rights reserved.