Muscle gain training antithetical to CST?

[Nick1974]

This is just something I have been thinking about recently, and thought I would throw it out to get some other thoughts.

Could it be that training to gain muscle (ie physique training goals) is antithetical to CST training? I propose that it is because if we are performing movements with the goal of inducing muscle growth then we can't possibly be training to make that movement more efficient. To grow muscle we must overload the muscle, and to overload the muscle our efficiency of movement must be 'dumbed down', and this dumbing down of movement is antithetical to CST.

Any thoughts?

[David Nicol]

If the muscle is functional muscle that aids your range of motion rather than inhibiting it then, from a CST perspective, this is fine. Training to gain pure bulk (bodybuilding) at the sacrifice of your health is not.

Health first fitness :)

Dave

[Adam Steer]

To grow muscle we must overload the muscle, and to overload the muscle our efficiency of movement must be 'dumbed down', and this dumbing down of movement is antithetical to CST.
Nick,

I don't see the connection here. Why do you say that you need to "dumb down" movement to induce muscle growth? I think there are a lot of construction workers and lumber jacks who might take offence... ;) Muscle will grow to accomodate the movement you require of it, whether the movement be sophisticated or not.
http://farm1.static.flickr.com/53/156249221_61acc35bdd.jpg?v=1158111380
I bet this guy's movement isn't very dumb... But he may do isolated muscle activation work from time to time to address imbalance in his VERY functional physique. Those movements may not be complex or sophisticated. But they are very smart because they are specifically targeting muscle growth to complement and balance the muscular development that he would gain through his more "integrated" and sophisticated training.

You can look at exercise as being on a continuum from "isolated" to "integrated." There is not right or wrong end to that spectrum. There is only situational decisions that need to be made according to the current situation of the trainee as to where on the spectrum they need to be working at any given time.

Hope that makes sense.

Cheers,
Adam

[Quentin Vaughan]

Well said Coach Steer, I learned much from this response.

[Cody Fielding]

Hey there NIck,

Just so you know, I'm currently in a muscle building phase. It became clear that if (at 45 yrs) I wanted to hold my own with folks half my age I needed more pure muscle.

I'll be spending 4 months building, then add in power and explosive movement then wrap up the process with agility and quickness. The need for greater muscle mass was not being addressed with sophistication - make any sense?

As an aside, I have no need/intention of doing this for looks.

I've seen this referred to as "Performance based Aesthetics" - I think that works quite well.

C-

[Nick1974]

Dave, and Coach Steer, thanks for your posts. I agree 100% with what you're sayiong there, but you missed my point (my fault for not stressing it) which was that if we are training with the GOAL of MUSCLE GAIN, then we will have the tendancy to avoid training with efficiency, beacuse efficiency doesn't lend itself to muscle growth.

Two things made me think about this. One was from my own trainig - I'm a skinny kinda guy and I would like to be more muscular, frankly, just to look better in the mirror. So when I am doing my yoga I find myself always tempted to "dumb down" the movements in order to induce a bit of muscle growth. For example I find myself trying to get a bit of a burn in the pecs when quad hopping instead of trying to find the 'sweet spot' of SEE which will create the hops with most efficiency (and least muscle growing potential). (I have to swiftly wise up, and avoid the temptation)

Secondly I was looking at Coach Sonnon's physique in his recent pics and videos and thinking that while he looks great, he doesn't look very 'muscular' compared with other guys in the fitness industry. I ask myself 'why is that?' It occurred to me that it must be because he has trained his nervous system (via CST) to perform with optimal efficiency thereby reducing the overload on the muscles and reducing the growth stimulus. For example the "CST getup" is based on joint articulation to move efficiently from the floor to standing with minimum effort and muscular involvement. The other guys in the industry will muscle their way up with heavy weights to "add resistance to the movement". The "CST burpee" uses SEE to absorb into the ground on the way down and "frog swim" back to standing. Again this results in more effciency and less muscular involvement. The other guys will be doing the traditional squat pushup squat movement working their muscles as hard as they can.

So what I'm trying to suggest here (and I stand to be corrected) is that if we are using CST as a system to put on some muscle we will be confusing the nervous system, and ourselves.

This is not to say that muscle growth won't occur as a 'side effect' - just that it can't be the GOAL.

[Nick1974]

Hey there NIck,

Just so you know, I'm currently in a muscle building phase. It became clear that if (at 45 yrs) I wanted to hold my own with folks half my age I needed more pure muscle.

I'll be spending 4 months building, then add in power and explosive movement then wrap up the process with agility and quickness. The need for greater muscle mass was not being addressed with sophistication - make any sense?

As an aside, I have no need/intention of doing this for looks.

I've seen this referred to as "Performance based Aesthetics" - I think that works quite well.

C-

Thanks for your post, I think we posted at the same time, which is why I didn't address your post in mine above.


The need for greater muscle mass was not being addressed with sophistication - make any sense?


Yes that makes sense, and was what I was trying to say.

But I take your point about a 'growth' cycle. Can I ask though why you reqire more muscle, rather than, say, more agility, power, stamina, or whatever? What will more muscle bring to the table for you? thanks.

[Coach Flanagan]

Nick,

I am struck by something. You can feel free to completely disagree with me as this is a hunch that I'm being given purely on text alone. In this and other threads I've seen you play "Devil's Advocate" on the subject of Muscle Gain - almost as if you are trying to make the case against it without being confrontational. It seems in your asking of Coach Fielding of WHY he needs to address hypertrophy and also in your similiar inquiry to me in my blog that you yourself are skeptical about it being alright to be a CST athlete and seek muscle gain. The main reason I bring this is up is because of this line in your post in this thread:

I'm a skinny kinda guy and I would like to be more muscular, frankly, just to look better in the mirror.

It seems like you are seeking justification in other people's responses to pursue hypertrophy. It seems to me that if you are doing this you very much want to pursue that goal but are looking for the green light from somebody else's reasoning. The fact is you CAN pursue muscle growth and still be an intelligently training CST athlete. Now if you want to pursue that goal as much as it seems like it to me, go for it. You have your own reasons and personal motivations. Just go for it.

[Coach Flanagan]

I also wanted to address another point you raised. Efficiency.

Two things:

1) The goal of CST is not to be come efficient. The goal is to become EFFECTIVELY-EFFICIENT. That means Effectiveness is just as important as efficiency. You can view this (though a gross simplification) as GPP being Effectiveness and SPP being efficiency.

The vast majority of the fitness industry completely ignores efficiency. That is why we emphasize it so much. IMO, There is a huge deficit in availability of training methods for it. Through CST, we are able to address that deficit and for most people active doing other approaches, they REEEAALLLLY need to move on from effectiveness and onto efficiency. However, its a balance. The reality is that training for effectiveness isn't pretty or glamorous, its just a matter of doing the work. As you work on your efficiency, you can branch off and do XYZ combination routine. But Effectiveness is just a matter of grabbing your exercise tool of choice and developing your necessary attributes with as simple of an exercise as is needed to give you the adaptation you need. You wont see article after article on the CST mag because there isn't much to say. For the most part people don't need more ideas on HOW to develop effectiveness - they just need to do it.

2) Movements that are more efficient can be still be used to trigger a very strong muscular/aerobic training effect. Efficiency doesn't mean effortless. I don't really need to go on to this point right now too much because for Hypertrophy for the most part you need to stick to grinding exercises and stay in the realm of effectiveness. To address the examples you brought up with the Frog Swim Squat Jump - not the best way to build muscle. But then again, neither is a burpee. A burpee is more of a conditioning exercise then a mass-building exercise. I also guarantee this, although the frog swim squat jump is more sophisticated and addresses more degrees of freedom, it can be equally torturous muscularly and cardiovascularly. Just because you're learning how to use stored elastic energy doesn't mean your muscles will permit you to go forever with them or anyother exercise that is more sophisticated and utilized SEE.

[Nick1974]

Nick,

I am struck by something. You can feel free to completely disagree with me as this is a hunch that I'm being given purely on text alone. In this and other threads I've seen you play "Devil's Advocate" on the subject of Muscle Gain - almost as if you are trying to make the case against it without being confrontational. It seems in your asking of Coach Fielding of WHY he needs to address hypertrophy and also in your similiar inquiry to me in my blog that you yourself are skeptical about it being alright to be a CST athlete and seek muscle gain. The main reason I bring this is up is because of this line in your post in this thread:


It seems like you are seeking justification in other people's responses to pursue hypertrophy. It seems to me that if you are doing this you very much want to pursue that goal but are looking for the green light from somebody else's reasoning. The fact is you CAN pursue muscle growth and still be an intelligently training CST athlete. Now if you want to pursue that goal as much as it seems like it to me, go for it. You have your own reasons and personal motivations. Just go for it.

I have to admit Sean you are pretty much 'on the money' there. You're a very perceptive guy! I hadn't even realised myself that's what I was doing! lol!

Yes, the whole muscle gain thing is an emotive subject for me because I am a small guy ( I weigh in at a whopping 135lb). I spent most of my late teens and twenties 'TRYING' to build muscle via bodybuilding but to no avail (though I did get up to 160lb) When I discovered Sonnon's work it seemed to be offering an alternative approach to "self esteem via physical culture".

Sean, I feel I owe you an apology for making the post in your blog, because to be honest my emotions did play a role in it and as you quite correctly perceived, I was "skeptical about it being alright to be a CST athlete and seek muscle gain" Not because I didn't think you had the right to, of course you do, you can do whatever you want, just that it seemed to contradict the CST paradigm. So I am sorry about that Sean, I should have kept out of it.

But that said, I am interested in debating the issue, on a non personal level, just to nail down where the muscle gain issue comes into CST. Or what that means even.

thanks.

[Coach Flanagan]

Sean, I feel I owe you an apology for making the post in your blog, because to be honest my emotions did play a role in it and as you quite correctly perceived, I was "skeptical about it being alright to be a CST athlete and seek muscle gain" Not because I didn't think you had the right to, of course you do, you can do whatever you want, just that it seemed to contradict the CST paradigm. So I am sorry about that Sean, I should have kept out of it.

Nick,

I'm not just saying this to be polite. You have absolutely no reason to apologize. Your question was not rude in any way - just by seeing it in context with your other posts it was evident to me of why you were asking. It seems that by asking that along with the other questions you've raised in this thread that you are now able to zero in on your limiting factors holding you back from the results you want. So on the contrary, you should be happy that you raised the questions as now you're a bit more clear of what you need to do. Thats half the battle right there.

[Cody Fielding]

Nick,

More muscle means more opportunity for recruitment. The great thing is that by using broad CST principles I'll be able to ensure that the muscle is active/athletic etc. which then makes me a stronger athlete at the end of the process.

I hear what you're saying in your replies w/ Sean - I tip the scales just over 150 lbs...;).

Keep exploring,
C-

[wiggy1]

it seemed to contradict the CST paradigm. So I am sorry about that Sean, I should have kept out of it.

IMO, building muscle is not contradictory to CST, as long as it is done in a "health-first" manner... meaning you do no harm in your pursuit. As long as you apply sound principles, use movements/exercises that are bio-mechanically solid, follow the CST Intuitive Protocol, and don't drive yourself into the gorund (mentally or physically), I personally don't see why building muscle is not a legitimate goal.

Although Physique is on the bottom of the CST Value Hierarchy, it's still there ;) .

[Cody Fielding]

Although Physique is on the bottom of the CST Value Hierarchy, it's still there

Exactly Brian,

C-

[shadow]

I've put on over 2 kg of lean muscle already in Coach Steers resolution program ;)

And that only comes in AFTER the gains in pain free mobility I have been making.

Another month to go!

[john.sifferman]

I read something interesting the other day about hypertrophy. The author, Alwyn Cosgrove, contends that hypertrophy is a systemic process, that it is not isolated to specific regions of the body.

I thought this made a lot of sense considering most of the other rehashed information about "bulking up" out there - it also checks up with my own training programs. Every time I have increased my LBM it has been system-wide - never isolated to specific regions even when on a bodybuilding-style split routine (oh yes, with the ever dreaded tricep kickbacks ;) )

One of the principles of CST is that training must be holistic - and take in the entire body. Each CST program I have used addresses this. From my personal experience, even BodyFlow can be used for building muscle if you plug in the proper parameters. I've seen good results all throughout my body even without hundreds of pounds on a barbell to "stimulate the muscles."

[Nick1974]

thanks everyone for the input to this thread. Seems that I was off the mark in my idea that "Muscle gain training is antithetical to CST".

I suppose I was restricting in my mind the broadness of CST. The "Body Flow" book was my first RMAX product and my introdution to CST so I tend to think of the CST paradigm as being that which is presented in that book, but there are other wings to the system which promote power, strength, and, yes, muscle gain.

I'm going to gracefully bow out now and get on with my own practice!

thanks.

[wiggy1]

I'm going to gracefully bow out now and get on with my own practice!

Nick,

Good luck with your training and let us know how it goes :) !

[Robert V]

Great discussion!

[shadow]

Nick,

I don't know if you are part of the core cadre or not... but Coach Sonnon has just posted the first in what is to be a series of insallments on "CST-sique" or.... CST based functional hypertrophy.

The first is working on the chest area (but he has done one previously on arms and a lot of webisodes on the stomach)......

Pretty exciting.

Also Coach Szolek did a lot of work on CST based functional hypertrophy which he called "Anabolic bruiser conditioning" using 2-handed heavy clubbell training.