Running on the beach

[iboucher]

Last November I moved to an apt right next to the beach. So I started running in December a short distance of 1 mile a few times a week. Slowly over every other weekend I increased the distance of each run. As of 3 weeks ago i'm up to an 8 mile run once a week. I run mostly where the water meets the sand, because it's not to soft, and not to hard.

I own and have watched the RMAX powered running dvd a few times now, and read the manual. I do the pre-run mobility drills, and post run stretching. I've run barefooted, and with shoes on. After running, the next few days my knees really hurt, mostly when getting up after sitting down for awhile or when walking down stairs. And if I run barefooted my right foot hurts too. But when I wear shoes my foot doesnt hurt, but my knees still do.

Here is some background info on myself;

I'll be turning 30 soon, i'm 5 '9' and anywhere from 145 to 150 lbs. I've never had knee surgery or foot injuries.

My question is since it's probably impossible for anyone to diagnose my my knee pain problem online like this.

Should I cease running for now because of the knee pain, in spite of the other benefits it provides for me? Or continue to run and just put up with the pain afterwards?

[Coach Heins]

Hi There,

A couple questions, see of we can't get closer to finding the source. Have you felt this delayed pain in your knees and foot since the beginning of your running? Or has it just come on since the 8 mile mark? What are the distances you are running on the other two days a week? If there is a delay in the knee pain, does that mean you are constantly in pain (assuming the overlap of the delay and your next run)? Have you ever had this pain in the past? If yes, what was it you felt caused it? What would you say your running experience to be: beginner, intermediate, advanced? And most importantly, what has your doctor said about it?

Also, what else are you doing in your training regime, besides the running? Recreational activities?

In the meantime, I'd throw out there that you'd be better off scaling back on the runs, perhaps start by taking yourself back down to a mile or two. Just something that allows you to move, without taking yourself into that pain. If you do continue to feel the pain, then I'd say, yeah, stop the running (at least until you can figure out what the cause of the pain is). You're right, running has loads of benefit, but to continue into the pain (which is the final signal from your body saying "Stop! Somethings off here."), kind of cancels those out in the long run. Kind of like staying hydrated and drinking clean water has loads of benefits for you. Drop of oil gets into it, however, cancels out any benefits you might have otherwise gotten from it;).

s.

[Coach Gostnell]

Hi, In addition to Shane's questions, I was wondering, what's the slope on that beach? My only experience with protracted, post-run knee pain was after a jaunt on a less-than-flat beach. Didn't seem to make any difference that I ran both ways on it to "level things out".

[iboucher]

KetFlo,

I've felt slight pain in my knees since the begining, but no pain in the foot until I got up to 6 mile mark.

I only run once a week.

During the run sometimes I will start to feel a little pain in my knees.

I never had this pain in the past that I can recall.

I would say i'm intermediate level runner.

I haven't talked to my Dr. about it.

And only last week i've started to do 2 handed clubbell work again, and just attending the monthly Flowbox seminars with Coach Jones.


Coach Jeanne Gostnell, yes there is a slight maybe 5 to 10 degree or so slope that I run on out and back.

[Coach Heins]

Hi iboucher,

Well, knee pain can stem from a number of different things. I'd rather not get into "where do you feel the pain in your knee: on the sides, 'in' the joint, all over" as I'm not a doctor and would be unable to diagnose what's actually going on anyway. So until you've had a chance to get looked over by your doctor and given a proper diagnoses, it'll be tough to move in a specific direction to address it. Some thoughts though, that might connect with you and perhaps switch on a light bulb, at the very least while in the midst of your doc appointment.

A pretty common source of knee pain is meniscus tearing. The meniscus is the cartilage in your joint that cushions the impact between your two bones. It's disc shaped, and sometimes tears at the edges. Those tears act kind of like burrs in your knee and the pain can be quite pronounced. If you've never had a knee injury before or experienced direct trauma to it, it could be this. Again, I'm no doc and can't determine whether it is or not. I just experienced something similar after having had reconstructive knee surgery (after 1.5 years of consistent post rehab), but in the opposite "good" knee.

Which brings me to another point: over-compensation by one part of your body, in lieu of another parts inability to function (due to weakness, imbalance or immobility) when trying to accomplish a particular task, in this case running. Do you experience any hip or lower back pain/discomfort? Or would you consider yourself pretty tight/inflexible in these areas? Often times, issues in the knee and ankle are refereed down from the hips. Something to keep in mind.

I have hiked in the local mountains really consistently the last few years (anywhere from an hour to 2.5 days) and one of the most significant factors in ridding me of post hike knee pain/discomfort (what goes up, must come down and that's the hard part), has been my introduction to Intu-Flow®, and doing it everyday. For the first time in 5 years (since the surgery) I've actually just started feeling like I could start running longer distances again (incrementally of course). Another key factor in that has been more work with Prasara and individual poses, assisting to address imbalances from big restrictions that I had in my hip and lower back, on the same side as the reconstructed knee;).

If the running is really important to you, you may want to consider doing sprint intervals. I was able to do this without backlash from my knees (zero pain or discomfort). But seeing as you've got a Clubbell®®, you'll be able to get great benefits out of working with it, until you are able to determine with your doctor what's up and what direction you should be moving in to address it.

All the best with this! Update us on your progress, it'd be great to hear how things are coming along. And of course, if you have any further questions, feel free to fire away.

Take Care,
s.

[Coach Larson]

Here is what I STRONGLY recommend:

1. Take a break from your running program. I know this can be hard but your body is sending you a serious message that you must address immediately.

2. Go see a doctor about this issue ASAP.

3. Do what your doctor tells you to do to rehab from this injury. Once cleared by your doctor for more running come back here and we can help you design a program.

4. As long as your doctor says its OK I would recommend continuing with a complete Intu-Flow program. Just remember to keep the RPD at a 3 or less.

[iboucher]

Thank you all for you lengthy replies. I still have not made an appt to see my Dr. yet, but I will soon.

On Saturday I ran about 3/4 of a mile on the beach, but with the focus of not letting my heels touch the ground as best as I could.

I noticed 2 things, I don't recall feeling much if any pain in my knees during the run or after.

2nd my calves gave out, that's why I only ran 3/4 of a mile. And 4 days later my calves are still sore from lactic acid buildup.

So that brings me to a question about RMAX powered running technique, maybe I was doing it wrong since the begining and hence the knee pain. When shifting the focus while you jog to landing on midfoot/ball of foot, is the muscle soreness in the calves to be expected for awhile until my body acclimates to this new method of jogging? Or does it sound like i'm still doing something wrong?

[Coach Heins]

Hi There,

Couldn't say for sure if you're doing something wrong or if it's something to be concerned about (that will come with greater clarity once you get some feedback from your doc), but thought I'd throw out there that I experienced the same thing when I started hiking in the mountains with Vibram Five-Fingers. Everything was ball-of-foot and mid-foot. The first few times the only thing that WAS sore, were my calves, for a good few days afterwards. Part of it is that we don't generally use those muscles that are meant for walking and running when we wear heavily supported footwear (which tends to cause us to heel strike). Thus those muscles are weaker and underdeveloped.

Coach Sonnon actually posted a good article with this great video clip of the difference when you run with and without shoes. If you haven't had a chance to check it out yet:

http://www.rmaxinternational.com/flowcoach/?p=509

My calves are fine now, and I hike/run about 5-6 miles "barefoot" right now.

s.

[lorenzodamarith]

Here is what I STRONGLY recommend:

1. Take a break from your running program. I know this can be hard but your body is sending you a serious message that you must address immediately.

2. Go see a doctor about this issue ASAP.

3. Do what your doctor tells you to do to rehab from this injury. Once cleared by your doctor for more running come back here and we can help you design a program.

4. As long as your doctor says its OK I would recommend continuing with a complete Intu-Flow® program. Just remember to keep the RPD at a 3 or less.

hello,

iboucher, not a doctor, or even a cst, but would LOUDLY echo the advice of coach larson...

hopefully you will be back to 100% soon.

get fixed. then workout.

recap of coach larson's advice:

take a break
see doctor
do what doctor says
get cleared by doctor

hmmmm. doctor 3 times in 4 sentences.

better do it. good luck to you.

thanks

[Coach Jones]

I totally agree with what's been said here in regard to seing your doctor. Make sure you do that. As one of those people who tends to make this mistake repeatedly, take it from me, address he issues before the issues address you.

Now secondly...

I'm sure that i'm pointing out the obvious here, but you are running on sand. Sand brings with it a whole new variable from running on flat ground, running uphill, downhill, etc.

I'm not a doctor an this is not a diagnosis - just something to consider...

Running barefoot on sand is a great exercise. It's great PROVIDED you have built up incrementally. We baby the hell out of our feet our whole lives. Almost as soon as we shoot out of the womb we've got a pair of shoes on. Our feet are, to use a phrase that Coach Murdock is fond of using, "shamefully weak". We use our feet like clubs with very little articulation.

On flat ground we are not forced to articulate our feet so very little movement is demanded. Sure there's some articulation going on around the feet but we don't have to use all of the tiny joints muscles and tendons in order to accomplish the task at hand. In fact we could just go plodding along like Frankenstein and still get the job done - just wouldn't look as cool.

Take that to the sand and now you're forced to articulate every piece of the foot to one degree or another. All those muscles, not used to being called to action start to tire and fatigue. To make up for that your body starts making adjustments, essentially "covering" for the worn out areas. As you "shore up" the structure in your bare foot, you are able to continue, but once that's stabalized you lose the ability to properlly absorb the shock as the feet continue to pound the earth.

When that ability is lost all that force has to go somewhere. If it's not being dissapated through the body efficiently and into the ground it has to go somewhere, right?

So al the force of the relentless pounding is driven right back up and through your body until it finds a leak. Any guesses on where the first, most logical leak could be found?;)

Again, let me say that this isn't a diagnosis and may have nothing to do with your problem so make sure you see the doc. Just wanted to throw this out there as something for you and others to consider as you/they begin running on sand.

Before taking your first barefoot run on the sand, I highly recommend building the strength and articulation in the feet for a good while prior.

Best of luck.

[Coach Heins]

In support of what Coach Jones said, I walked outside in my Vibrams for an hour a day (two days on one day off) outside for two weeks before getting into the mountains, which bring a whole other set of challenges. I'd done that to incrementally introduce the weaker areas of my foot to actually functioning again. Then started slowly into the hikes.

I feel like a bit of a shmuck for having neglected to go into that part, but that's what having a forum like is for. There are enough eyes to help fill in the holes if something is missed.

That being said, two weeks was my number. Everybody's "baggage" is different and therefore everyone's progressions are different. One of the greatest benefits to your forward progress will be ensuring a strong foundation to move forward from. And, without trying to harp on it, getting the doc's feedback (and greenlight) will give you the knowledge that you're building your fortress upon solid ground, rather then the stress/uncertainty that it could be nothing but quicksand. Not to mention the actual sinking deeper, the more you struggle against it (if it turns out that's what it is). Then pulling yourself out will take that much longer and.....well you get the idea;).

By asking the question, you already took the step to make a change. You took the action to further your own progress. Don't stop, keep rolling with it. You WILL see an outcome:).

s.