Sambo vs Jiujitsu

[Scott Sonnon]

http://www.gezi.us/index.php?option=com_seyret&Itemid=26&task=videodirectlink&id=6

Good demonstration of polarized strategies.

[Matthew Barnes]

I was pleased to see the first BJJ guy change his ideas of standing up with the sambo guy after he got dumped hard in a scramble.
I dont speak Russian so maybe they explained it but why didnt we see any leg submissions? I guess there was one that we didnt see, but I was rather surprised to not see more.
The differences between the fast grappling and position before submission really show up here.

[Scott Sonnon]

You didn't see leg subs because this demosteated the truth - sport sambo or combat sambo - fast wrestling has no business being on the ground with positional wrestlers. The sambo fighters dominated only because they were smart enough to avoid when possible, withdrawal with possible and stall when possible.

[lorenzodamarith]

hello,

this was interesting. we won't name names, but, a certain high level grappler has been criticized for criticizing "fast grappling". some sambo "experts" have even claimed that "fast grappling" doesn't exist anymore, while criticizing that certain high level grappler for claiming it does exist.

yet here we see it. further, we see it not working very well.

nonetheless, it was interesting to see each guy employ different approaches, or even change plans mid match.

one thing appeared odd. did the sambo team seem to be really poorly conditioned? at least, compared to the jiujitsu team?

anyway, the clip is appreciated.

thanks

[Scott Sonnon]

Lorenzo, :)

Yes, the BJJ fighters took the Sambo fighters out of their conditioning energy system, causing them to fight off the BJJ positional attacks. Scrambling is a huge metabolic cost, which is why the Dan Gable type approach (work till you puke) to American wrestling is so ingrained in our country.

But the problem isn't that they're poorly conditioned. Certainly, they could have conditioned for scrambling more effectively. But the point is, what if they didn't need to scramble?

The beautiful throws at the beginning were abandoned early in favor a defensive game. (Though I'll be honest, if pulling guard is permitted in a joint-grappling rule structure, then slamming ought to be to equal out the rules.)

There would be so many more high level throws, which the BJJ fighters were incapable of defending against, if the Sambo fighters were fully committing. And they can't fully commit unless they're willing and able to positionally fight.

This goes back to the metabolic cost again. Why did the Sambo fighters get so gassed? Because where the BJJ fighters, IMO, were in worse GPP than their Sambo counterparts, the BJJ fighters were using very little energy to coerce and progress in the groundfighting positional march; whereas the Sambo fighters had to use nearly pure conditioning to stall, cancel and withdrawal from the groundfighting engagements.

I believe both styles are elegant, which is why I brought positional fighting to Sambo... when others focus on trying to bring the repertoire of throws to BJJ. (Of course, traditional Sambo wants to claim they've been "always doing this all along" (http://www.mixedmartialarts.com/mma.cfm?go=forum_framed.posts&thread=1441156) and yet nowhere before the Saddle series do we see Sambo positional fighting. Since I was around a decade before these "experts" even started, I await to see any footage or even books of Sambo positional fighting anywhere, especially in Russia, before I released the Saddle that is.)

[lorenzodamarith]

Lorenzo, :)

Yes, the BJJ fighters took the Sambo fighters out of their conditioning energy system, causing them to fight off the BJJ positional attacks. Scrambling is a huge metabolic cost, which is why the Dan Gable type approach (work till you puke) to American wrestling is so ingrained in our country.

But the problem isn't that they're poorly conditioned. Certainly, they could have conditioned for scrambling more effectively. But the point is, what if they didn't need to scramble?

The beautiful throws at the beginning were abandoned early in favor a defensive game. (Though I'll be honest, if pulling guard is permitted in a joint-grappling rule structure, then slamming ought to be to equal out the rules.)

There would be so many more high level throws, which the BJJ fighters were incapable of defending against, if the Sambo fighters were fully committing. And they can't fully commit unless they're willing and able to positionally fight.

This goes back to the metabolic cost again. Why did the Sambo fighters get so gassed? Because where the BJJ fighters, IMO, were in worse GPP than their Sambo counterparts, the BJJ fighters were using very little energy to coerce and progress in the groundfighting positional march; whereas the Sambo fighters had to use nearly pure conditioning to stall, cancel and withdrawal from the groundfighting engagements.

I believe both styles are elegant, which is why I brought positional fighting to Sambo... when others focus on trying to bring the repertoire of throws to BJJ. (Of course, traditional Sambo wants to claim they've been "always doing this all along" (http://www.mixedmartialarts.com/mma.cfm?go=forum_framed.posts&thread=1441156) and yet nowhere before the Saddle series do we see Sambo positional fighting. Since I was around a decade before these "experts" even started, I await to see any footage or even books of Sambo positional fighting anywhere, especially in Russia, before I released the Saddle that is.)

hello,

coach sonnon, this makes sense now. actually, this makes a LOT of sense now. in hindsight, this happened anytime changing schools or visiting schools of other styles.

agreed though, both styles/approaches are pretty cool!

appreciate the insight into what we saw.

thanks

[Darcebrabo]

Lorenzo, :)

Yes, the BJJ fighters took the Sambo fighters out of their conditioning energy system, causing them to fight off the BJJ positional attacks. Scrambling is a huge metabolic cost, which is why the Dan Gable type approach (work till you puke) to American wrestling is so ingrained in our country.

But the problem isn't that they're poorly conditioned. Certainly, they could have conditioned for scrambling more effectively. But the point is, what if they didn't need to scramble?

The beautiful throws at the beginning were abandoned early in favor a defensive game. (Though I'll be honest, if pulling guard is permitted in a joint-grappling rule structure, then slamming ought to be to equal out the rules.)

There would be so many more high level throws, which the BJJ fighters were incapable of defending against, if the Sambo fighters were fully committing. And they can't fully commit unless they're willing and able to positionally fight.

This goes back to the metabolic cost again. Why did the Sambo fighters get so gassed? Because where the BJJ fighters, IMO, were in worse GPP than their Sambo counterparts, the BJJ fighters were using very little energy to coerce and progress in the groundfighting positional march; whereas the Sambo fighters had to use nearly pure conditioning to stall, cancel and withdrawal from the groundfighting engagements.

I believe both styles are elegant, which is why I brought positional fighting to Sambo... when others focus on trying to bring the repertoire of throws to BJJ. (Of course, traditional Sambo wants to claim they've been "always doing this all along" (http://www.mixedmartialarts.com/mma.cfm?go=forum_framed.posts&thread=1441156) and yet nowhere before the Saddle series do we see Sambo positional fighting. Since I was around a decade before these "experts" even started, I await to see any footage or even books of Sambo positional fighting anywhere, especially in Russia, before I released the Saddle that is.)

Coach Sonnon,

I've done ALOT of research on you, your training ideas, and the like vs. the more "traditional" approach of Sambo. Now let me first place the disclaimer on my thread by saying I am in no way an expert in Sambo, nor have I trained with any legitimate Sambo instructor aside from watching some Youtube instructionals, and seeing some Sambo guys compete with us in the local NoGi grappling tournaments. I also come purely from a brazilian jiu jitsu background (in which I am a Purple Belt).

With the above being said, I thoroughly understand EXACTLY where you are coming from in regards to the positional approach. This is why your saddle series did SOOOOOOO much to my Lower Half game. You basically made the Saddle position another form of the Guard for me, and now if guys have no idea how to deal with it, then its an easy submission. Ive asked countless Sambo guys their opinions on the Saddle, all of which could only comment negatively on your personal background (which I care very little about), and using that as a platform of attack to the position.

This is no pun to traditional Sambo guys, but it just seems to me (and this is evident from watching the locals compete), but until they address the position game, and quit diving for knee's and ankles, then they arent going to be able to compete against any high level grappler.

Forgot to mention I knew some of the BJJ guys that was in that video you linked us to, and it was sad to see the Sambo guys using running out of bounds as a defensive tactic. I hate when small things like that cover up the lack of solid techinque.