Bullies, School Politics & Law; Thoughts Please

[Ski]

Recently I was astounded to discover the manner in which the faculty of my kids school deals with conflicts that come up between students from day to day. I submit the below and would like to hear the thoughts or opinions from the Tribe as to how everyone might handle this situation or how others with children might or have dealt with the same issue:

During class my oldest son (third grade) notices another student going through his backpack and remove a distinctively colored pencil (florescent orange). The other student returns to his seat where my son demands the return of said pencil. The student refuses and states that “It’s mine now”. My son then attempts to take the pencil from the other student’s hand. When the offending student tries to quickly stand up, my son, knowing he was about to be attacked in one manner or another, continued to grasp the pencil while pulling the other boy across his desk to get him off balance. He told me he did it because he remembered his ROSS. I believe he was referencing our back yard discussions of the “Triangle Point.” (I was a little ashamed smiling at him in the Vice Principles office for the ROSS reference but that’s a different story.)

At that point in the confrontation, the teacher became aware of the melee and came to the back of the room and separated them. When questioned on the cause of the incident, my son stated what had happened. The other student then told the teacher that the pencil was and always had been his and that my son had tried to “steal” it. The teacher then asked my son if he could prove the pencil was his. He attempted to do so by producing an eyewitness to the offending students’ actions and by providing the teacher with other pencils of the same make and model from his bag. None of which had been sharpened yet, just like the one the offending student was now holding. The teacher, instead of scolding the student, or reporting him to the Vice Principal (VP), told my son he was wrong to have acted in the manner he did, and should have let the other boy use the pencil until he was done with it. At which time my son could request its return. My boy was then escorted to the VP’s office to await the arrival of my wife and I.

Granted, my boy could have asked the teacher to get the pencil back instead of confronting the boy himself, but I do not think that would have worked either. When I spoke to the VP and the teacher I asked, if by their logic, it would be permissible for me to take the VP’s car from the parking lot, without permission or intent of return, and that she could ask me for it back at a later date. To which I may or may not be finished with using it. I was met with cold stares and was told that I was “using an overly exaggerated example.” I tried to keep a level, even mindedness about the whole incident. Everyone likes to believe their children and trust that their side of a story is true. Luckily, in this case, the teacher did corroborate everything my son said happened from the point when she became involved.

This was the first incident my boy had ever been involved in. Since then, both he and my youngest son (who is small for his age) have been victim to 6 or 7 other incidents of bullying during school. Everything from being pushed around physically to verbal abuse and beyond (stealing right out of their hands, injured for amusement…). At first I thought it might just be that my sons may have been being hypersensitive to simple playground name-calling and pranks, but that was not it. This is a “out in the sticks” school. My wife and I wanted to keep them out of the inner city to avoid the same things I had to deal with while growing up. I am not naïve enough to believe I can shield my children from small-minded people for the rest of their lives, but I do what I can.

We all run into bullies of different shapes and sizes everyday. But the social trends I see reflected in the actions of the children around my kids are disturbing. I see a lack of respect for each other’s person or property. I hear disrespectful and insulting speech from the mouths of babes, instead the innocent wisdom. I see the smaller and kinder ones either trampled and crushed by the cruelties thrust upon them, or I see them succumbing to the ugliness and joining in to avoid being ostracized. I’ve seen first hand parents honing their children to be oblivious to others feelings and to consider themselves first above all things. This is all fairly cumbersome to my lads since it is diametrically opposed to the example I try to set and instill in them.

It may sound strange, but I was extremely glad to read on the forum and in several writings from the Tribe, the old axiom that “your life does not belong to you alone, but to that of the tribe.” If only more people understood the meaning of that verse. I cannot expect to change other parent’s ideas on moral or social conduct. I will continue to keep my kids knowing that they are loved and that everything will turn out ok. My fear is that one day, I will get a call from the school to inform me that one of my kids had reached his limit, struck out against a tormentor, and was either hurt or has injured another. I don’t want them to be martyrs and not defend themselves, but I am at a loss as to what to do if it happens. Scott, you really hit the mark when you used the example of the locker-room rape scenario, the rapist that looses an eye by the hand of his intended victim is going to be considered the plaintiff when the court comes to order.

My wife and I discuss this often and are concerned. I look forward to any input or response from the tribe.

The best to you and yours,
--Jeff Pelkowski

[Bill Ripley]

Assumming that you are in the US the goal of public education here is not to educate but to indoctrinate. If you have any moral integrity at all you will find yourself disagreeing with 90% of school officals 90% of the time.

[Vbrown]

Be prepared for more of the same. And do your best to work with your sons to help him understand that this is the way most people are in the world. They EXPECT you to roll over and play dead and anything else is "antisocial".

Just keep turning him into a man of his word, to not turn bitter against the sheeple and stand up for himself with right action, word and deed.

Part of the trick is building a level of self confidence in them so that they won't be pushed "too far" and let the past bully-ing come out onto one target. It's very difficult and depends greatly on the inner character and nature of your boys. If they don't truly and deeply beleive in themselves, they will permit too much boundary crossing till they do snap and then tear the head off that one bully. Making him look like the bad guy.

Let your boys know you will always beleive in them until they do something to violate that trust. You'll end up dealing with it constantly with the school to be sure.

Try raising them on samurai movies and other tales of honor, integrity and strength. I've always dug biographies of folks like Teddy Roosevelt and Winston Churchill.

They'll be a rare breed among their peers with folks like you.

I wish you and yours the very best,

Vince

[Connie Brown]

Well I would do what you are doing in equipping the kids.

As to my personal grown-up response, I would also start documenting incidents and consult a lawyer. Doesn't have to go anywhere or cost anything and it would make me feel like I am being proactive in making public schools a safe place for everyone. The paper trail is what talks.

A "don't let abuse go by uncommented" attitude. If something happens I would say "I saw that" and put it in writing.

I learned this trick when a friend of my teenage daughter was being abused at home. We hooked her up with a child advocate lawyer and the lawyer said, start documenting everything. Somehow this brought on the whiff of being in the legal system before any charges were actually filed, and it kept everyone on the straight and narrow. The teenager survived the rocky years and even the relationship at home got better over time.

[Mike]

Great point Connie! Documentation is a must.

[sin_goodfellow]

We all run into bullies of different shapes and sizes everyday. But the social trends I see reflected in the actions of the children around my kids are disturbing. I see a lack of respect for each other’s person or property. I hear disrespectful and insulting speech from the mouths of babes, instead the innocent wisdom. I see the smaller and kinder ones either trampled and crushed by the cruelties thrust upon them, or I see them succumbing to the ugliness and joining in to avoid being ostracized. I’ve seen first hand parents honing their children to be oblivious to others feelings and to consider themselves first above all things. This is all fairly cumbersome to my lads since it is diametrically opposed to the example I try to set and instill in them.

It may sound strange, but I was extremely glad to read on the forum and in several writings from the Tribe, the old axiom that “your life does not belong to you alone, but to that of the tribe.” If only more people understood the meaning of that verse. I cannot expect to change other parent’s ideas on moral or social conduct. I will continue to keep my kids knowing that they are loved and that everything will turn out ok. My fear is that one day, I will get a call from the school to inform me that one of my kids had reached his limit, struck out against a tormentor, and was either hurt or has injured another. I don’t want them to be martyrs and not defend themselves, but I am at a loss as to what to do if it happens. Scott, you really hit the mark when you used the example of the locker-room rape scenario, the rapist that looses an eye by the hand of his intended victim is going to be considered the plaintiff when the court comes to order.

My wife and I discuss this often and are concerned. I look forward to any input or response from the tribe.

The best to you and yours,
--Jeff Pelkowski


As Bill and Vince mention, much of the current population of the world has a problem with independent action and thought. The "Vigilante Justice" of kids defending themselves against bullies instead of coming to a teacher is not sought well of, especially in these days of Columbine-induced academic hysteria over any sign of violence in the student populaton.

I got in trouble for fighting back against bullies, but I also learned about the repercussions of such acts at a young age. I found out first hand the penalties(physical, emotional, disciplinary/legal)that result from egaging in violence. That combat violence hurts you as well as the person you initiated it upon. I learned that I don't like to hurt people in fights, but I am capable of doing it when I have to defend myself. All this at an age when it was unlikely that my acts of violence would have long-lasting repercussions.

Continue to instill in your children as it seems you have, the belief that they should not let themselves be pushed around. If some kid is calling them names, tell them to walk away, instead of calling them names back. If a kid "injures them for amusement" they should respond in kind, swiftly and soundly. This might resort in them getting in a few fights, but bullies will learn not to pick on them and they will learn firsthand how uncomfortable a fight can be. They will know why they should avoid violence firsthand, but also that they can defend themselves. If they just stand there and let themselves be hit, fear/stress will build up like magma in a volcano until the inevitable explosion. Human beings are not meant to be hurt without defending themselves. Restraining that urge completely will result in terrible stress, better that it be channeled appropriately so it doesn't become uncontrollable.


If they do get in a fight, sit down with them and hear them out without initial judgement(though thankfully, it already sounds like you do this), then discuss any other possible options he might have taken, if any. IF he was in the wrong, tell him so and punish him. If he was in the right, support him. Too often I see parents afraid to punish their children when the child was at fault in a fight or deny the child's statement that it was all he could do. Children respect their parents, even if it doesn't seem so at times and your words hold more power than you can imagine, especially at the age of your kids.

Vince made an excellent point regarding feeding them tales of honor, integrity and strength and Connie's suggestion to document is valuable as well. Standing up for your beliefs when your growing up can be hell, but the rewards: confidence, friends who will stand by you, willpower...are without price.

Best Wishes to you and your children,

[bob_stra]

*steam escapes from ears*
*deep breaths.....deep breaths*

2 words

Home schooling

http://www.rru.com/~meo/hs/faq.html

Fastest growing trend in US education IIRC.

Or the next logical progression thereof for busy parents -

http://www.tidenet.com/GMS/FAQ.html
http://www.fortnet.org/rsws/waldorf/faq.html

I am told it's common to have parents in classrooms acting as "co-teachers" or visiting instructors in such places.

Look into it - HS isn't what you think it is, nor does it do what most assume (ie: create socially inept kids). It's very real and if your time permits, very viable.

I know I sure as hell will be looking into it when the time comes.

*steam starts boiling out of ears again*

O/T
You wanna read something really horrible that will boil your blood? Try this -

http://tinyurl.com/fvhv

(is this the path that education is now taking?)

[Glenn Sunshine]

Documentation, as has been pointed out is critical, but I'd take it to the next step: let everyone know that you're assembling the file. As soon as you have two or three incidents, take them to the principal, and tell him if it continues, it will go to the board of ed, then the town council and the newspapers. Be polite, but let them know that this needs to be stopped not just to protect your kids, but everyone else's as well. The system is broken, but it still makes sense to take advantage of what it does permit you to do.

Yours,
Glenn

[Connie Brown]

ABsolutely Glenn, that's exactly what I mean.

Also it sends a message to the kids that the grownups are using grownup techniques to protect them, too.

[Laney]

Homeschooling is a good idea for a great number of reasons! No waiting times to get dinner, homework done in class, learn at own speed, learn the things you enjoy in more depth.... Less detentions! No nasty smelly teachers! Wooh!



But you might want to go over some of the nice new american anti-terrorist acts.... One of them has given people whom are homeschooled a terrorist status, and can be arrested at any time Big Brother see's fit... :?

I cant remember which one (I'm in England, so i dont really bother remembering the names of the acts.... but International politics are getting more *interesting* by the day) but i'm certain that it's included in there! So dont annoy the establishment too much! :roll: (Might be in the patriot act somewhere...)


(Just some semi-paranoid information to throw into the mix...)

Matt Lane

[vich]

Good advice given above. I can't imagine having my daughter in public school right now. We have her enrolled in a private Christian school. Of course you will still have crappy parents who enroll their kids there, but the nice thing about private schools is that they are not required to keep the kids enrolled. If the child is a proven, repeat troublemaker, they will be thrown out. Period.

I'm really disgusted by the current state of public education. I don't place the fault entirely on the school, I think most of it belongs on the shoulders of parents. Not all parents are like you, me, and the others posting here. Most have a "my child can do no wrong" attitude, weak discipline for their children, and indulge them beyond belief. Then when their kids reach the teenage years and are out of control they wonder why....

Dr. John Rosemond and Dr. Laura have the right ideas about raising ethical, responsible children and turning them into upstanding adults.

On a related note, childhood obesity falls in a similar category. Sure, the schools have vending machines, but parents don't teach their children to eat right.

All this really burns me up.

Vic

[Ski]

Thank you so much for the input. Once I get home this evening I will be posting another, longer reply. But I truly am thankful for the thoughts and advice given so far.

Just receiving these responses once again proves that there are a lot of caring, good natured people in the Tribe and I hope that I too will be able to offer some input to the forum as time goes on.

I cannot say thank you enough. :)

All the Best,
Jeff Pelkowski

[JasonE]

Bob -

I read the article on Tranquility Bay, then followed up and read the promotional sites, the survivor message boards, and various other articles. Eventually it crossed over into various drug treatment programs throughout the US.

As a fairly well-informed individual, I am amazed that the outright abuses and occasional deaths have not made bigger news. The stories read like outtakes from "The Holocaust"... and the people founding and running these disparate organizations all sound exactly the same.

I got into documented information on the money trail, and it turns out that the owners of the drug-rehab torture chains became well-connected and have served as ambassadors to other countries. Disgusting how it all comes back to cash flow, regardless of the harm done to thousands of kids.

Shouldn't have read all that, because it's got me boiling and thinking thoughts that I shouldn't... but it's better to become aware of terrible truths and acknowledge them than it is to pretend they don't exist.

The approach taken by these facilities is to weaken and "break down" the individual, until they finally succumb and give control of their behaviors to those in authority. Continuous reinforcement of this weakened state is then occasionally relieved with mild positive reinforcement, which only strengthens the conditioning.

This is exactly the opposite of the approach espoused by the Knuckledragger Philosophy.

[bob_stra]

This is exactly the opposite of the approach espoused by the Knuckledragger Philosophy.

Good. Glad I'm not the only one who got pissed off then ;-) That stuff made my blood boil. I fear such tactics might become even more popular with parents / teachers.

OTOH, I really, really like the Steiner stuff. The have an entire section of their curriculum devoted to movement education, ala Bodyflow. Time permitting, I'd like to one day teach at a Steiner school.

*Sigh* Nothing like pipe dreams to get you thru a long day ;-)

[Ski]

To All,

Thank you graciously for the replies! Great points on documenting any incidents. VBrown, great idea as well on presenting them with as many great examples as possible of "Stand-up guys/girls". There are few modern examples of people to admire, but like you mention, Churchill, Roosevelt and the like were good figures of people who did what was right. I also try to teach them about HH Dali Lama, T.E. Lawrence and the fictional exploits of Horatio Hornblower as well as the Capt. Jack Aubrey novels of Patrick O'Brian.

Another example of the situation is where my youngest son had tried to help another student who was being hurt by a bigger kid. He was not very successful, but the offending party did stop, and has harassed my boy about it a number of times. My son was not so upset that he was now a main target for the bully because of his action. What truly made me proud of this 7yr old was the way he described why he did attempted to help. He said he helped because he knew how it felt when it was happening to him and wished someone would help him.

Since then the bully has ran him down on the playground, jumped him and twisted his arms behind his back (one of his favorite things to do to his targets I’m told), punched him in the head while passing by and so on and so forth. However, the kid is also smart enough to do this when anyone in authority is not looking. I hope that he soon tires of this and stops. I hate to think that he will just move on to the next target, but that is probably what will happen.

My boys are, unfortunately, without many other kids in our area they’re own age to pal around with. They are very close, as most brothers usually are, and I am spending a lot more time in yard playing and more time talking with them since this has started. You folks are absolutely right. Letting them know that they are loved unconditionally, and supported for doing right and continue to try to help others in need. I’m sure this will turn out ok.

As I continue to grow towards my own goals with ROSS and CST, I plan on having them along every step of the way. Great examples of people worth admiring and respecting abound in this movement. Just look at this page of the forum. No one had to reply at all, some have, more might, and I, for one, thank you all.

Best to you and yours,
--ski

[jphaas]

Jeff,

Your son, at 7 years old, is a perfect example of someone living the "Warrior's Creed". For those of you who do not know it, here it is:

THE WARRIOR CREED
By Robert L. Humphrey
(Iwo Jima Marine)


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Wherever I go,
everyone is a little bit safer because I am there.

Wherever I am,
anyone in need has a friend.

Whenever I return home,
everyone is happy I am there.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

"It's a better life!"


Congratulations on a fine job as a parent.

Sincerely,

Jon Haas

[JasonE]

As my friend, a former marine, once told an anti-violence ultra-passivist (while he was still serving):

"I do my job so that people like you have the chance to make people like me obsolete."

[Jrichardson]

:?

I've had this idea in my head for a while now that at some point in the fairly recent past -- not sure exactly when -- the U.S. made some sort of tidal shift from being a fundamentally good society with a lot of evil people in it to being a fundamentally evil society with a lot of good people in it.

This is the sort of story that I think may have formed this idea... it used to be, I'm pretty sure, that if you wanted to be a good person you at least wouldn't be swimming upstream against the system...!

[Coach Billew]

Hey all.

I am about to go against the grain here, but the us and them mentality developing here is dangerous. I am sorry that any child is bullied, and that the education system is so messed up.(Any child of mine will certainly be home-schooled as long as they want to be, because I feel children learn better in the environment I could help create.)

On the other hand I work in various schools around my city. Everywhere from the richest county schools to poor inner city schools, and the kids I meet are generally good people. Do they have problems and issues, sure, do they hate school, yes most of the time, but they are generally kind and generous people.

My experience has been not that there is too little discipline of kids, but that there is too much stupid discipline. There are too many attempts to punish kids for things that they don’t need to be punished for and in ways and for reasons that are nonsensical. People talk about the lack of discipline in inner city schools, but from what I have seen all they have is discipline, what they don’t have is money or an understanding of how children think and develop.

I think that it is dangerous in a unique environment like this board, full of special people, who are really trying to change themselves and those around them, in developing a negative attitude towards the rest of the world. People are not generally sheep. People may live lives that you, or I would find boring and unchallenging. If you spend enough time around people, you usually find they have something interesting underneath the social shell. They may hide it from people they don’t know well, but most people I have spent any time around eventually reveal their own genius and the area of their life in which they are really alive. I think we should find ways to encourage that in everyone around us, and we don’t do that by looking down on people and their lives.

Also there is a danger I see from a lot of very intelligent people, which is seeing culture as something separate from the people who make it up. Culture doesn’t exist out there somewhere. We are the culture and if we want to change the culture then we need to enter into the fray, and accept that we are part of it.

Sorry if this long-winded or overly combative, but it saddens me to see so many of the great people here have such a negative outlook towards the world.

--
Slade

All that you touch
You Change.

All that you Change
Changes you.

The only lasting truth
Is Change

-Octavia Butler

[Ski]

Mr. Billew, et al

Thank you for your input. I hope that I have not led anyone to believe that I am fostering a superior or elitists attitude towards anyone’s children, parents, teachers or the world. I travel throughout our globe regularly. One of the things I love about this aspect of my work is the chance to view totally different cultures, ideas, beliefs, religions etc… 90% of the places I go are the poorest nations in the world. I would not last 10min on the ground in some of these places if the natives had inkling I harbor a superior attitude.

I mention this because I get to see what a lot of regular Americans do not, and it keeps my head and my heart in check. My starting this string was not to garnish the opinion that my family and sons are being persecuted by “The Great Unwashed”. My sons are having a bit of trouble with some bullies. I love them dearly and posted a question on what others might have by way of advice or experience with the same issue, not to look down my stubby nose at anyone. You are correct that getting to know people and that throwing ourselves into the fray is beneficial to the this life. I would hope I walk through this life without blinders on. I enjoy the diversity I see everywhere I look. But I also know that there are people in this world that have a totally different outlook on life and how they see others.

I don’t think anyone responding to this string is looking down on anyone. The bullies bothering my sons could have all sorts of reasons for what they do, anywhere from a dangerous home environment to psychological or developmental issues. These kids are as deserving of help and the fairness as anyone, and so do my sons.

My apologies to anyone who may have been offended by my words.

So, my question to Mr. Billew, and I use your title out of respectfulness, not in a combative tone :D , is this: You state that any children you have will be home schooled because you feel they would learn better in an environment you would help create. Further on in your post you state that we should throw ourselves into the “fray.” Unless I do not comprehend your meaning, this sounds contradictory. On one hand you suggest controlling your children’s environment while on the other, telling us that we should go forth and commune with the world. If you could clarify I would appreciate it.

I have been “singularly none-plus” on home schooling because I want my sons to live and learn about all they can, from anyone around them. I also want them to be safe. I am not looking to shield them from the schoolyard “toughs”, but to find ways to deal with them.

Again, thanks to all for the input. This is getting to be a great discussion.

--ski

[Scott Sonnon]

Jeff, firstly, thank you for sharing this issue. It obviously brought a great deal of response, concern and ideas. This is the best characteristic of the "internet forum" and I hope to see more of this dialogue.

My wife and I will be entering our daughter into a private, Waldorf school for her early years, but we believe that come Jr. High, she will reap greater benefits by going into the population through public (or private) school.

Perhaps our opinion will change between now and then. Perhaps it will change when she enters school. But until that time, our opinion is that she needs to experience the trials of socialization, and more importantly learning to seize education despite the trials of socialization. In other words, though it pulls our heart strings to see her exposed to troubles and obstacles, we feel she must experience these (hopefully incrementally so that she's never overwhelmed) so that she learns something more important than success: recovering from failure. We believe that the speed of recovery from failure IS success, and that enthusiastically moving from one obstacle to the next is one of the most important virtues we could share with our daughter.
For that reason, we are deciding against home-schooling, which initially was our chosen route.

However, our concern is as your current experience: the administration we shall face does not support a child's private space and proportional right to property. Your story ostensibly communicates this.

My wife and I were discussing this issue a few days ago, and I posed the following example of what we should be proactively prepared to address:
A girl after school during athletic programs becomes surprised as a boy student starts picking on her in an isolated hall. She tells him to leave her alone and she starts walking away towards the exit. He advances poking her, jumping in front of her obstructing her way, and escalating the insults. She pushes through him saying she will yell for a teacher. He shouts, "Bitch!" Slaps her and shoves her into the lockers.

She cries out, "NO! Get off me!" And she struggles under his superior strength. He begins to grope her and rip at her undergarments. When she realizes that he's sexually aroused, and he begins to explain he's going to rape her, something deep inside her explodes.

She digs her thumbs into his eyes, scratches his face, head butts, bites and knees her way to freedom.

This "near-rape" survival story doesn't have a triumphant end, because the boy suffered permanent loss of sight to one eye. The girl and her parents find themselves in court not because they're pressing charges against the boy's assault, but because they are defending themselves against the charges of the boy's family for being the "victim" of the girl's "vicious attack." Now, granted this is a hypothetical, and a deliberate hyperbole, but it's really not any different than Jeff's son's experience with his pencil. One can argue this is a problem with the educational system, a social problem of "forced peace" or even a parental problem of ineffective rearing strategies. However, although this is important discussion and very helpful to read and learn, at any point in time, we must make choices and act.

We want to teach our daughter proportional force, physically, mentally and emotionally. Granted, the social climate (especially where we live) abhors force of all kinds and seeks a sort of “intentional utopia” which obviously never works even under the heaviest hand. And that heavy-hand tends to support and protect the social predators which prey upon those children who have come to fear force of any kind and who do not know how to gauge and apply force even to defend themselves.

My wife and I have decided that we're going to minimize the potential harm to our daughter to the degree that we do not remove her ability to seize her education despite socialization. In that, we will do what Jeff did and choose the best school possible for her to attend. We will research the administrative policies regarding interactive issues between children and the process of punishment. We will have regular meetings with our daughter's teachers and be open and accessible to her teachers; as well as being involved in the educational board meetings (which are open to parent observation and participation). We will have our daily (smaller) "check-ins" and our weekly (more substantial) "check-ins" with our daughter to discuss any issues she's experiencing. Finally, we'll make ourselves aware of the local/state criminal codes for minors (and adults) in regards to violence, so that we are not surprised WHEN problems arise.

I don't think that there's any "solution" to Jeff's experience, and actually admire the relationship he's fostered with his son that he would take such proportional force actions. I DO find it beneficial to share these stories and experiences so that I can personally discuss them with our family and use them as constructive head-sheds to role-play out potential issues before they happen.

[Glenn Sunshine]

My kids are in public school, and when we have had similar problems to the bullying described abouve the administration was exemplary in their handling of the situation. I have no personal axe to grind here.

On the other hand, I also had my kids with me in Germany for a semester. The school provided us with the materials the other kids would be covering during the four months we would be away. I found out my kids could keep up with their peers by doing about an hour of work per per week on their math, language arts, and social studies combined. They needed extra time for reading, and I did a lot of supplementary stuff for social studies, music, phys ed (of course!), etc. I discovered that a lot of what goes on in classes is management rather than content. And we've got a good school system in our town.

There have been studies done with homeschooled kids that indicate that not only do they excel in their studies, but they are also better socialized than their peers in public schools and interact more successfully with others. This struck me as counter-intuitive, but the studies show that it tends to work out that way.

Now, you need to have both the right kids and the right parent to do this, but the problems most people expect with home schooling don't seem to actually occur when you examine results.

Yours,
Glenn

[Ski]

Glenn,
Another good point. It takes the right kids and parents to make the home school route effective. I'm sure there has been as many success stories as failures with home schooling.

I would tend to believe that the successes would be from happy, loving family homes. Parents with poor relationships with their kid I'm sure would end up making things worse. Don't get me wrong, I am not claiming to be the patriarch of a perfect family, but I know what a jerk I was to my Mom and Dad while growing up, and home schooling would have put me in more contact with them than I wanted. :lol: They're both great and I love'em. I was kicked out of school for hundreds of reasons all my own fault, but never, never ever, for bullying.

I'm of the opinion that bullies, the hardcore bullies, at any age, are of the opinion that being cruel is a way to gain;

1. Respect from peers through intimidation,
2. attention from peers or parents/adults (either good or bad) or,
3. self esteem (flawed, but temporaraly satisfying)

The reasons for which, I'm almost certain, start in the home and family life. Please, if anyone can shed a diffrent opinion on this, please bring it forward. This is why I strife to teach my boys to follow the warriors creed mentioned earlier: (insert thanks to JPHaas)

Wherever I go,
everyone is a little bit safer because I am there.

Wherever I am,
anyone in need has a friend.

Whenever I return home,
everyone is happy I am there.

Does anyone in the tribe believe that the bullies of the world could state this creed with conviction?

Thanks again,
Great input Coach S, et al

[vich]

It's definitely a complex issue. As to culture being "us" I have to agree. The Jerry Springer show didn't stay on the air because it was losing money.

As to the discipline issue, I agree that it needs to be measured and targeted. Most of the problem though is lack of discipline from parents wanting to be their kids' "pals", or from guilt over never being home so they can pay for that big house, the luxury car, and the SUV in the driveway. 8)

I have to say that I'm impressed with the civility of this forum, especially on a topic like this.

Vic

[Randell Waddell]

A couple of books forum members may find insightful:

"The Optimistic Child" and any other books by Martin Seligman, the guy that has probably lead the way in our knowledge of Learned Helplessness.

"The Nurture Assumption: Why Children turn Out the Way They Do" by Judith Rich Harris. This latter book shook the foundations of Pedagogy/Psych departments etc at Teaching Institutions etc. A lot of people hate her conclusions. My take on them is: be aware that the interaction that a child has with their peers has a far greater influence on them then many thought.

Result of both books: encourage your kids to explore and encounter levels of adversity, so they create and trial strategies to overcome these and for picking themselves up off the ground and starting again. Resilence is all important and knowing that they have a family, extended family, or in the forum case, a tribe that will assist in "lifting up" those who may do with a little encouragement along the way, is all important

Ski: I like what I have read of your headspace - if you are ever passing through over this way, please accept this invitation to pop in and spend some time.

Cheers
Randell :D

[Mike]

Although the bullying problem these days seems to be worsening, I'm not sure I would ever consider home schooling for my children. I feel that interacting with others is a must for children and that the social aspect of public and even private schools can't be ignored.

I may be going against the grain here, but conflict resolution at a young age can pay dividends for kids when they grow up, granted of course it is not too severe. I'm not suggesting we let our kids get bullied, but I don't think avoidance is the best solution.

I'm not slandering anyone here for their choices, raising children is tough and I know all of you want the best for your kids. In the end, your decision is what counts and that's all that matters!!!

[Coach Billew]

Mr. Pelkowski,

First, please call me Slade. Second. I am sorry if my post seemed combative. It seems to me that you are doing an excellent job of raising your children, and I did not mean to imply otherwise. Also as has been pointed out bullying is a difficult and complex issue. It seems to me you are doing your best with a difficult situation

Honestly my comments were more of a response to some of the other posts in the thread. Maybe I misread them, but a few of them particullarly the comments about "Sheeple" and Jon's post about evil felt to me reflective of a negative attitude towards many aspects of our society, and I feel very strongly that this attitude is a danger to many of the ideals that we share here in terms of personal development, and being part of larger societal change.

You make an excellent point about homeschooling. Its a decision I struggle with alot, hopefully by the time I actually have children I will have it better resolved. My feeling is that homeschooling or some form of communal schooling is a better environment than most public schools. Personally I have chosen a career path that will make it difficult financially for me to send a child to private school, so that's not really an option.

For me homeschoolng is not about me controlling the child's education, but rather creating an environment where the child can control their own educational experience. If my child decided that they wanted to go to public school I would certainly allow it, and I would not try to argue them out of it. The other aspect of this is that it means they get to enter the world in the way that makes the most sense to them. Rather than being put in a daily environment where they have little control over what they do or who they interact with. The thing that bothers me most about schooling is that it is compulsory. As a child I hated school, I was frequently bored, and can think of many better ways I could have spent my time. To me compulsory schooling promotes an idea of life as drudgery, and I would like my child to have the opportunity to choose to do otherwise.

I hope this helps explain where I am coming from, and thanks for challenging me to clarify my thinking.

[Jrichardson]

I suppose my statements could be seen to reflect a negative attitude towards others in our society, if you're of the opinion that the actual people in it are more in control of its direction than the personized non-human entities known as "corporations."

http://reclaimdemocracy.org/personhood/

[JasonE]

Not having kids of my own, I can only say this:

I think the benefits of home schooling truly are dependent on "the right parents" and "the right kids" having the right sort of family dynamics to make it work.

One of my best friends was home-schooled. He's extremely bright, but his single mother was not. Consequently, he's extremely well-read by habit of self-education, but he has a heck of a time working for or studying under others unless he really likes them as people. Also, he's spent most of his life convinced he sucks at math. Recently he took a college math class and realized that it was extremely easy for him. He was thunderstruck to realize that his mother's poor math skills and inability to teach him effectively had warped his self-perceptions.

I become concerned when I consider how poorly-prepared most parents considering home-schooling really are. Many tell me their main purpose is to minimize "corrupting influences" in their children's lives... seemingly forgetting the old saw about preachers' kids. Many parents do not have the type of relationship and communication with their kids that would enable them to balance the role of educator with parent in an effective fashion.

Equally worrying, many parents I've talked to simply don't have the education to take their kids beyond elementary levels of ability in most subjects. Not because they can't relearn it, but because they never really excelled themselves. Frequently, the best-educated spouse is the one who goes to work while the other is teaching. Honest, self-aware parents can balance this, and share the responsibility... but it requires a willingness to deny their own egos.

All that being said, I have seen home-schooled kids do very well, and I know it can work for some families. However, I think that the Waldorf and the Montessori school options are excellent alternatives to the typical public school, especially for parents that want something different for the kids but aren't certain that home schooling is the best way to go.

[Coach Billew]

Jon,

An interesting site. I will have to do some reading. I am an idealist, but I firmly believe that determined individuals can change society. I know that corporations have a great deal of influence on our society, and government, but I still do believe that the actual people of society can change it, and that corporations are made up of individuals who can change corporations. This is getting into some serious thread drift and should perhaps go elsewhere.

Mr. Erickson,

That is an excellent point about the parents' level of knowledge having an impact on what the child learns. I think that to homeschool well, you have to find resources in the community whether that is friends or organizations to assist when the parent is unsure how to help the child. Ultimately I think the goal of homeschooling is to help the child have the tools to teach themselves the things that they want to know. The parent should be there as a facilitator more than as a sole authority.

[Ilya Kleyman]

Before you make the decision whether or not to home school a child, you must understand it's bearing on his/her future. For one thing, school is also a place to develop basic skills in society. If your child is being bullied, then either he or you must resolve the matter. To simply try to avert from the situation by isolating the child in what is quite possibly a worse learning environment is detrimental to the child's very well being.

Consequentially, there are a few benefits of home schooling. Once you get past the lack of social interaction, the actual academic side is often better. That is, given a proper instructor and not a stay at home mom with a degree from a junior college.

Just my thoughts on the subject. Personally, I'd rather go to the worst school in the nation than be home schooled, but hey, that's just me :wink:

[Laney]

At the end of the day.... Your kids happen to be people; little people!

When making any major choices about anything regarding your children, make sure they understand all the factors involved (And i mean ALL) and let them decide.... If they're smart enough to understand the situation, and how it will affect them, they're sure smart enough to make a choice!

The above is applicable to all situations kids will find themselves in, and to be honest, when i was younger, i hated it when anybody made up their minds about what was "best" for me without asking. Still do. But then again, i've always been a pain in the ass to everyone that likes telling me what to do and when to do it......... And i want to go into the Royal Air Force :roll: :lol:

[Glenn Sunshine]

The kicker is that the studiees I have seen indicate that on the whole, homeschooled kids do better at social interaction than their public school peers. My guess is that this is because they are socialized as adults, and thus skip the asocial behavior common in children and adolescents. So be very careful about the conclusions you draw from a presumed "lack of social interaction" with homeschooling. That had always been my assumption as well, but the evidence suggests that id doesn't really work that way, particularly since there are other and frequently healthier venues in which the students interact with people.

Yours,
Glenn

[Ilya Kleyman]

To draw conclusions from studies that are based on a select group of children with so little constants would be just as wrong as to draw conclusions from presumptions. One can say that given the lack of interaction with one's peers, the most important type of social interaction is lost altogether.

Social interaction with a parent or teacher is far different from social interaction with one's peers.

Oh, and studies are only published when they provide evidence contrary to popular belief.

[Glenn Sunshine]

I'm not an apologist for home schooling. As I indicated earlier, my kids are in public school

I do find your dismissal of contrary evidence to be a bit surprising, though. Do you have any studies at all that support your contention? Do you know the studies that have indicated what I reported? IIRC, the homeschool students integrated smoothly into high schools and colleges where they interacted with their peers at least as successfully as their public school counterparts. I found that surprising myself, but the study seemed well designed (though I am a historian, not a sociologist). You also assume that school is the only place you can learn to interact with your peers. I don't think that's a valid assumption. In any event, I would be cautious about dismissing out of hand what research has been done on the topic unless you know of flaws or counter evidence or studies, and even then you would need to evaluate them relative to the studies I've seen to determine which was better designed and more likely to be correct. As it is, your dismissal of these studies seems a bit cavalier and closed minded unless you have more support for your position than you've given. If you do, I would be sincerely interested in hearing about it. Among other things, most of my students are training to be teachers, so I have a professional interest in the question.

Yours,
Glenn

[Ilya Kleyman]

Sorry Glenn if my original post came out as agressive. I was short on time and trying to pack as much in there as I could before running out the door :P

I can relate to this from personal experience, I have had friends that have had to go into home schooling either due to behavioral problems or physical illness. In every case, they seemed to become reclusive, and although they seemed to mentally mature and, when "released back into society" interacted on a higher level, it did in fact seem as if a part of them was lost. I don't know of any study to cover this, but I would personally not wish that upon anybody.

-Ilya

[Glenn Sunshine]

Ilya,

Fair enough. The problem with studies is they're statistical and thus aren't accurate predictors of what happens with individuals. I'm sorry your friends' experiences seem to have left a void for them.

Yours,
Glenn

[Coach Billew]

Ilya,

Glenn makes a good point about the dangers of statistics. What happened to your friends reminds me of something I have long believed: The context in which people experience something strongly impacts how they experience it.

If you are homeschooled because that is the choice that you have made for yourself and with your parents your experience will probably be very different than if you are forced to be homeschooled.

In the example of your friends whether it was meant or not, they were essentially told that they had too many problems to stay in school.( I am not saying they did, but that is what the school was saying to them by forcing them into homeschooling.) I suspect that being told they weren't good enough for school, and therefore in a sense for "normal" life, had a profound impact on their experience of being homeschooled, and on their socialization. Also, since their parents were not homeschooling by choice or inclination that probably added some tension and difficulty to the situation.

Glenn,

Would you mind providing more detailed information on the studies you cited. I would appreciate the data.

[Scott Sonnon]

I wanted to clarify my position on the issue, since I suspect some have misunderstood my post. I did not state that homeschooling would not provide socialization possibilities. Actually, we researched that this option did indeed; as well as the artistic and sportive activities made available by the community and city gov't.

My post regarded the challenge offered by private (and/or screened public) schools. We have made the decision to have our daughter face the challenges of this social environment and intend to rear her to "seize" her education in spite of the social challenges.

We believe public, private and home schooling have equal quality with differing approaches. After reviewing the research and presented statistics from both 'schools of thought' we decided to go this route.

[Glenn Sunshine]

Slade,

I'm up to my ears in grading right now, but I'll get you the citations as soon as I have a chance to track them down.

Yours,
Glenn

[Coach Billew]

Glenn,

Thanks.

[jasonB]

Warning: long!

Focusing in on the question of bullies, I think maybe we have to recognize that this isn't JUST about the school system. Adults too are bound by rules that basically dictate the following: application of physical force is isolated in the hands of the political center (i.e. the government), with specific exceptions like physical attack or rape, AND those exceptions only hold if the so-called 'defender' did NOT act in a way or ways that escalated the situation.

If someone steals your stuff, you cannot beat him up and take it back. Likewise, if you call someone a name and he takes a swing at you, after which you throw him to the ground, you were NOT engaged in self defense, you were part of the fight. Etc.

Furthermore, until presented with proof otherwise, police will generally assume that both parties in a "fight" are at fault, for the simple reason that usually they are.

This is, of course, all part of the legal system, to which schools are bound, and the civil system, to which the possibility of lawsuits ties them.

So, translation:

If someone robs you, you cannot physically assault them to take it back.
If someone takes your child's things, your child cannot physically engage them to reclaim it.

If you are pushing someone around and they attack you, you cannot engage them and then claim self defense.
If your child is attempting to manhandle someone, and perceives that that person is about to attack them, they cannot engage and then claim self defense.

If you get in a fight, justified or unjustified, you will probably be treated as part of the problem until the police can sort things out.
If your child gets in a fight, justified or unjustified, (s)he will probably be treated as part of the problem until the teachers/administrators can sort things out.

This is not about the SCHOOL. This is about the legal and civil principles of our society. With a few exceptions, THE APPLICATION OF PHYSICAL VIOLENCE IS OFF-LIMITS TO THE CITIZENRY.

This means that no matter how much a bully emotionally abuses you or your child, invades your or their space, or disrespects you or them or your or their property, neither of you is allowed to physically retaliate.

So when objecting to the treatment of your child, you are objecting to one of three things (as far as I can tell):

1) misapplication of the principles - this is very real, such as the teacher telling the child he should've let the thief 'borrow' his things until through with them. but many things that one thinks falls under this area are in fact in line with our legal and civil system.

2) the principles themselves - it is quite likely that you object to the monopoly of the 'authority' on physical violence. If you think you or your child OUGHT to be able to physically take back what someone else has taken, you fall here.

3) the application of the principles to children - perhaps you think it's all fine and dandy that YOU can't go fighting to get your stuff back, but that your child should be able to. the issue here is that the gov't has rules intended to maintain control or order, depending on how you like to look at it. the school has similar rules for similar reasons; unless you think some other method can accomplish the same control or order, the rules remain important.

Finally:

1) I'm not trying to say what's right or wrong here, just trying to lay out the broader issues, namely that citizens are prohibited from using physical force under circumstances where maybe we'd like to be able to, and that children are likewise prohibited.

2) I'm sorry it's so darn long!

[Ski]

JasonB.,

Thank you for your input. I do, however, have a couple of questions. At the end of you well written note, you state that you are not trying to say, “what's right or wrong here.” Please keep note of this as you read on.

I may be incorrect in my comprehension of your writing or the point you are making, but your note seams to suggest that no matter what occurs, or who did what first in an altercation, the judgement of our legal system will stand on the grounds that “all” parties are to blame. Unless proof otherwise is presented. This brings me to my first question, which is this: “What then?” I will watch for a response.

My next questions concern your following statements. I have pasted them here in black and my questions are below each in red:

You state:
This means that no matter how much a bully emotionally abuses you or your child, invades your or their space, or disrespects you or them or your or their property, neither of you is allowed to physically retaliate.

When another is physically assaulting a person, what do you suggest be done by the victim? If two parties are alone in a room, no other witnesses and one physically assaults the other what can the victim legally do. I ask specifically for a response concerning PHYSICAL ASSAULT. Disrespect or emotional abuses are just as bad, but vary little can legally be done to put a stop to it. Since you seam to be bringing a purely black and white view of the law and its applications, I am truly and respectfully interested in what you would suggest.

So when objecting to the treatment of your child, you are objecting to one of three things (as far as I can tell):

1) misapplication of the principles - this is very real, such as the teacher telling the child he should've let the thief 'borrow' his things until through with them. but many things that one thinks falls under this area are in fact in line with our legal and civil system.

My question to this is to request an example as to when, within our legal system, a person accused of being in possession of property that is:

1. Known or reported as stolen by the proven owner,
2. Has no proof or witnesses that support a claim of the item being given freely to them,
3. Cannot invalidate the claims of a third party that witnessed said person take the property without permission.

And is allowed to maintain possession of said property once it is requested returned?


2) the principles themselves - it is quite likely that you object to the monopoly of the 'authority' on physical violence. If you think you or your child OUGHT to be able to physically take back what someone else has taken, you fall here.


3) the application of the principles to children - perhaps you think it's all fine and dandy that YOU can't go fighting to get your stuff back, but that your child should be able to. the issue here is that the gov't has rules intended to maintain control or order, depending on how you like to look at it. the school has similar rules for similar reasons; unless you think some other method can accomplish the same control or order, the rules remain important.

Finally:

1) I'm not trying to say what's right or wrong here, just trying to lay out the broader issues, namely that citizens are prohibited from using physical force under circumstances where maybe we'd like to be able to, and that children are likewise prohibited.

I agree that if someone has offended you in some way, by word or deed, violence is not permitted to regain dignity or property. I state no such idea to the contrary, I hold no opinion that anyone is permitted legally to physically recover stolen items by force.

You are, however, correct on one point, but not the way you may believe. I do object to a monopoly on physical violence. That being the monopoly our system has given to “bullies” that are smart enough to know where and when to conduct their attacks in order to avoid prosecution. I have no objection to civil and federal authority for the application of violence as a means to an end, I have been well aquatinted with the subject for a number of years. Your retort on this is welcome if offered.

NOTE: This subject has many branches. The simple point of “bullying” touches, as we’ve seen, ideas on home schooling, psychological effects, play ground politics, etc… I thank everyone responding. I also want to thank JasonB for bringing yet another aspect to this forum. That being the “black & white, letter of the law” views. It truly is the basis of what we discuss here. We establish laws to protect and maintain order, however, nothing is perfect. There are shortfalls in every aspect of our system. I have read many good ideas about helping my kids deal with this situation, for the most part, everyone has offered positive input. JasonB’s has done nothing less. Even though no suggestion of how to better the situation was presented, JasonB’s view is valid and relates what the law may see things as. Thanks for the input JasonB and I look forward to any future input!!

Again, Thanks to all!
--ski

[jasonB]

Ski, I'll try to answer your questions here, but first let me try to clarify my intent. What I was trying to do is point out that the sort of problems that become readily apparent in the school systems are not localized there, but are widespread in society. They're just more noticable in schools because children seem to run into the administration more than adults run into the law (hopefully, anyway).

On the "practical" level, I suppose this basically means that trying to change the schools is only going to go so far without changing certain things about society, things like self defense law and overall litigiousness (people suing a lot). That's fairly broad & longterm. More local & shorterm, it means you have to make use of the legal system - the school certainly is! Someone already mentioned documentation, and someone else mentioned lawyers. That kind of thing is probably where it's at for the time being.

Now, your questions.

Questions about everyone being at fault until there is proof otherwise. I think I was unclear here. What I was trying to say is that if the police come in and you and some other person are fighting, they're going to treat you the same until things get sorted out; and the same will be true for children in school. I think it may have come off as having more meaning that I meant it to. Basically it means that even though you think your child is in the right, and EVEN IF YOUR CHILD IS, the school is going to be rather more doubtful, and that is to be expected. You seem from your original post to understand this, but I just wanted to point it out.

I hope that clears that up. If you still need specific questions addressed, just say so.

Question about stolen property being retained: I think I agree with you here. I was using the example of the teacher you described to point out an actual case of something gone wrong.

Also, relating back to the 'practical' level, as above: if you have something stolen and the police won't do anything about it, you can expect your only option to be to go higher up. The same is going to be true with the school. After your meeting with teacher & administrator, I'm sure you've realized this.

Your point about bullies exploiting the system is well taken, and I have no disagreement here. In fact that is exactly the problem - the system can be exploited. My only point was that the system that is being exploited, and that may therefore need change, extends well beyond the school system. I hope I have made that more clear.

[Chuck Kechter]

I have read this thread with interest. Thanks to all that have participated. . .


. . .the “black & white, letter of the law” views. It truly is the basis of what we discuss here. We establish laws to protect and maintain order, however, nothing is perfect. There are shortfalls in every aspect of our system.

Like all things, our "system" is only as good as the enforcement of it.

The law NEVER supersedes anyone's right to defend their self, loved ones, or (in most places) their property. Though there is a (sometimes arduous) process in place to ferret out the "truth" when things go against the the status quo.

As to the rest of this debate: For me it all comes down to personal responsibility.

What I try and teach my daughter (who is 11), and live myself, is that ALL choices have consequences, and that there are MORE and LESS desirable outcomes to those choices.

Public schooling, home schooling, standing up to a bully, not standing up, et cetera: how far do you want to take it? What are the ramifications? What is the most likely consequence? What is the prefered outcome? What is the worst outcome likely? Et cetera. I usually add in: can my decision be Murphy proofed? Or at least to a degree?

_______________________________

If I were in your shoes, on top of trying to live and teach the concept, I would also point out to my kid(s) some of the consequences of the choices made by the adults in this situation: the teacher (and administrator(s)) re-enforcing (and maybe escalating) the power dynamic between the bully and your child, by allowing the situation as stated to stand.
--As a side note--that is probably the last thing they want to propigate. If you ever want to tweek their (administration) sense of "correctness," point out to them that the two boys that shot up Columbine a few years ago (I had a cousin killed there), both complained FOR YEARS that they had been the "victims" of peer level abuse--that was "overlooked" by the public school administration. Ask them if their intent is to create a similar dynamic--.

I have several friends that are teachers, and this issue is one of those "fine-line" things that will make their heads spin, as, if you let it go to far someone gets hurt, if you step in too soon, someone (Or everyone) ends up depowered, which if done often enough can lead to self esteem issues.

Remember, I never said personal responsibilty was an easy road. . .:wink:

Regardless of the issue though: Taking and teaching personal responsibility takes thought, and study, and (often) conversation.

But most of all: conviction.

All the best,
Chuck

[JasonE]

This thread is leading me to re-examine many questions and answers from the past, and to re-evaluate certain expectations for the future. I apologize for the length of this.

That said, I will now risk over-simplifying this thread's course by making the following statements:

It seems that the core issues (in this thread) keep coming back to Injustice and Personal Response & Responsibility.

Injustice - "Life isn't fair," the reason we have a concept of Justice to begin with. This is why Hamurabi and later Temujin wrote their codes of law in lands that had never known of such things. No one wants the short end of the stick, but we can't all have the long end in all things.

Law isn't determined to make all things even, but to settle or prevent disputes in a more-or-less consistent manner. If someone breaks the law, penalties may be applied. To someone that perceives theirself as the victim, the law is very clearly Black and White. However, black&white law exposed to subjective interpretation may look very grey to those charged with enforcing it. The tendency in American society is to under-enforce ("Innocent until proven guilty.") when things look grey and to over-enforce ("3 Strikes, You're Out.") when things look clear.

Personal Response & Responsibility - How do you deal with the situation to begin with? Do you let it escalate, or seek an exit, or find some other course? How do you prepare yourself to handle situations before they happen? Do you even think about it?

Whenever an "injustice" or "breaking of the rules" occurs, we CHOOSE how to respond. The child may go with the stranger without being forced; the child may yell for help and try to run. You may gripe when someone takes "your" parking spot; you may ignore it and simply find another spot. Why do you react the way you do? What are your patterns? How does it match your temperament? Do you really feel you don't have any other options, or do you simply go with your first instinct? How do you mold your instincts and your ability to make choices in the face of Injustice?

Understanding Personal Response starts with understanding the person. Knowing the person gives insight into their responses. This information then allows you to mold or change those responses, whether the person is you or someone else.

When a person makes a choice, they accept Personal Responsibility for the consequences of their actions. "Ignorance of the Law does not abrogate Responsibility under the Law." Learning about the true consequences of potential actions is an important factor in learning how to choose the best Response.

The Inayan Escrima "3 Laws of Carrying a Knife":
1. Don't carry a knife unless you are prepared to draw it.
2. Don't draw a knife unless you are prepared to use it.
3. Don't use a knife unless you are prepared to accept the consequences.

These simple rules may apply to how we prepare to deal with any possible Injustice that may come our way.

Unfortunately, even the best preparation and our best efforts to avoid a situation may not be sufficient. A good friend of mine was a bar manager and bouncer. Highly skilled in several martial arts, he tried to always de-escalate situations before force became involved.

One night as he was locking up, 3 guys armed with bats jumped him. Everyone else was long gone, and there was no time to escape before the bats started swinging. Falling back on his training, he broke a couple of arms and ended it quickly... without getting a scratch on him. Soon after, he was brought up on charges and given 6 month's jail time. Why? They reasoned that his years of training constituted "premeditation" to do violence.

Frustrating, but did he make the right decision? I'd say that he did... and end this with another old saw:

"I'd rather be judged by 12 idiots than carried by 6 wise men."

[vich]

One night as he was locking up, 3 guys armed with bats jumped him. Everyone else was long gone, and there was no time to escape before the bats started swinging. Falling back on his training, he broke a couple of arms and ended it quickly... without getting a scratch on him. Soon after, he was brought up on charges and given 6 month's jail time. Why? They reasoned that his years of training constituted "premeditation" to do violence.

It makes me ill when I hear stories like that.

Vic

[Ski]

To all,

The last two additions have got me thinking of starting another discussion on the forum. The subject will deal with what I have dubbed the “Victimology” of society.
Vich brought up his friends’ incident, and like Jason E. I became nauseated. The direct relation between the Bullying and the Victomolgy is striking. The 3 assailants (I could also use the term “Bullies” became the “victims” in the eyes of the law. Not knowing the full story, would I be safe in assuming that a very intelligent attorney was able to sway the judge or jury to the sentence of Vich’s friend to 6 months jail time?

This is one of the core items of my concern when teaching my kids about dealing with harsh situations in life. We make our decisions, we face the consequences, and are either safe or sorry afterward. I hear many times from my kids that this or that “Is not fair”. Bed time, homework, cleaning the room…etc. is, of course, like we all felt growing up, pretty unfair when it wasn’t what we wanted to do right then and there. But having to get to bed at 2030 and calling it unfair is easy for me to explain. What is not is explaining why some people can be cruel, abusive, lie, cheat and steal, and get away with it “Scot Free” except for he Karmic impact.

Thank you for bringing more great points to the subject!!
I now have to go mow the lawn and fold laundry.
Man, this is so UNFAIR. :wink:


All the best!
--ski

[Ilya Kleyman]

Man oh man, 6 months jail time for defending one's self?
:x :x :x

To be honest, our society is out of sync. It is so much easier to punish an individual for an action that requires no such punishment, all in the hopes of correcting the behavior that isn't even that bad in the first place. When one holds such power, the ability to punish an individual in the hopes of correcting behavior, they will always use it, no second thought involved.

I don't know why, but it's rooted deeply into human psychology.

"This behavior may very well become a problem one day, so I'll give him 2 years in prison because it doesn't affect me"

[Chuck Kechter]

Since I've jumped in with both feet. . .

Re-reading all the posts I've noticed something that I find very interesting--psychologically--most of the post thus far have been of an--either--or--type nature. Run, or fight. Justice, injustice. "Bully," "victim." Social needs vs. individual responsibility, Et cetera.

If this were looked at as "combative" strategy, so far, just about all of the repsonses would fall under Context Specific responses. "A" happened, now what? (move b, C or X), or Context Free: This happened always X.

What about Context Sensitive?

From Coach Sonnon:
through awareness, sensitivity and improvisation spontaneously creates an appropriate solution to the event as it unfolds without any predesignated ‘skills’ but a deep internalization of natural laws and efficiency.

Or from yet another direction: What about blending? Is there a safe, healthy way to blend with this, rather than meet it head on?

What if your son--with the tactic agreement of the teacher--went through the possession of the "bully?" What lessons might be learned? For ALL parties involved.

Would "walking a mile" in your sons shoes teach a lesson? Or reinforce the dynamic that prevails?

All the best,

Chuck

[Glenn Sunshine]

Sorry it took so long. Dr. Patricia Lines of Seattle's Discovery Institute reported on several controlled studies of homeschooled and public schooled students based on blind evaluations of videotapes of their behavior. The home school students consistently scored "well adjusted." I could not find the study directly or I would post the link.

Yours,
Glenn

[Coach Billew]

Thanks Glenn. Sounds interesting. I am curious what their definition of well adjusted is. I will look for the study.