Dancing and the knees

[abelian]

Hey guys,

I enjoy dancing the jazz dances from the late 20s to the early 40s, things like the Lindy Hop, Charleston, Balboa, East Coast Swing etc. As a newcomer to the scene, but as a die hard fanatic of injury prevention and technique, there are a ton of questions that I have on developing good technique that is gentle on the body, especially on the knees, the most misunderstood joint and as a consequence the place where tons of dancers get busted.

Has anyone thought about dancing in a CST way? What are the compensations that can help? What are the moves to avoid and to modify so that one can keep dancing till he breathes his last breath? :) How can we develop technique that is stylish, yet at the same time health first?

My impression of the jazz dance community is that they're a very enthusiastic, happy bunch who're willing to help, but a lot of their conditioning is still stuck in the old fitness era, e.g. static stretching, strengthen muscles. They seem to view knee injury as an inevitable consequence of their passion. Given the tremendous improvement I had in my running with ChiRunning, I'd like to believe that a similar focus on good biomechanics can eliminate many of the injuries that were once taken as unavoidable.

I understand that the CST seminar will teach many basic biomechanical principles, as well as how to dissect and analyze movement. The former appeals to me for reasons stated above, and the latter sounds great because it'll give me the ability to steal moves in a safe and informed way :)

Is there anyone out there who does dancing (lindy hop/charleston, or any sort, e.g. smooth ballroom, latin) and can give tips and hints on this? I'd especially love to get a small community of CST and dance enthusiasts going so we can see how to make dance safer and more fun.

Thanks!

P.S.: Am thinking of starting tap dance. Any thoughts on the effects it might have on the body?

[Coach Billew]

Hi!

I would pm Coach Camron. She has and probably still does compete in ballroom dance competitions.

I suggest pm'ing or emailing her because I don't know how often she makes it to the forum, but she would be a great resource on this topic.

[RonP]

You're definitely barking up the right tree. Go forth. You will get a bunch of what you want out of CST.
I've wondered about the dancing. I'm sure there is a thinking coach out there considering a program for professional dancers. Ballet has big problems with injury. Not to mention all those on "Broadway".

[Coach Billew]

Actually CST for performing artists is part of my area. The distinctions between different forms of dance is not unlike the differences between individual sports.

Ballet for example couples an extreme body technique, with intense overspecialization and a lack of compensation. So for most Ballet dancers the need is for health first conditioning practice and correct compensation.

Broadway dancers on the other hand, are usually thrown into movement patterns for which they get little training. They are also expected to master singing, dancing, and acting for a given show in a very short period of time. Then perform with as much commitment and energy as possible for several hours at a time at least 8 times per week often for months on end. They need effective active recovery, the ability to modify their conditioning and compensation from show to show. Also they need detailed training in the 7 key components, so they can master the technique of new movements faster and safer.

Ballroom dance is not really my area, but I would suspect that the biggest needs would be regular joint mobility and specialized compensation. Also focusing on the 7 key components while giving yourself the time to develop incrementally would be key. I think the biggest health challenge for the non-professional ballroom dancer would be a tendency to try to accomplish the moves without allowing the body to learn them slowly and properly focusing on good technique. If you give me a bit more information about the learning process of the training you are getting I might be able to offer some advice.

[Swing Kid]

I think the biggest health challenge for the non-professional ballroom dancer would be a tendency to try to accomplish the moves without allowing the body to learn them slowly and properly focusing on good technique. If you give me a bit more information about the learning process of the training you are getting I might be able to offer some advice.

You are right. Unfortunately the regular Joes and Janes want to learn a lot of fancy stuff to impress others and themselves. So the result often are "more show than go".. Bad movement quality, no understanding of what they are doing and why and not much body awareness. I found that Intu Flow is great for any dance style. I do some Intu flow as warm up in my dance classes.
Some yoga for compensation isn't bad either but I am an absolute beginner in Prasara yoga so I am not the right person to talk about this. Flow Fit helps with general conditioning . CST is is a great fitness tool for dancers because it's all about quality, sophistication, flow and injury prevention. Dance is about movement quality, not about brute strength, extreme endurance etc.
I love Swing and dancing in general and I am wondering whether there are other dancers (pro or recreational) in the CST tribe.
Hey - anybody here? :wave:

[Swing Kid]

Hey guys,

My impression of the jazz dance community is that they're a very enthusiastic, happy bunch who're willing to help, but a lot of their conditioning is still stuck in the old fitness era, e.g. static stretching, strengthen muscles. They seem to view knee injury as an inevitable consequence of their passion. Given the tremendous improvement I had in my running with ChiRunning, I'd like to believe that a similar focus on good biomechanics can eliminate many of the injuries that were once taken as unavoidable.


You are right. Dancers in general (recreational or pro) don't know much about safe and effective conditioning, good nutrition etc. And they often believe that it is "normal" or "unavoidable" to ruin jour kness. :rolleyes:

I would say, the folks on RMax or Dragon Door or crossfit or Mark Sisson and the Paleo crowd or Fighter Fitness etc. etc. are smarter on average about health and fitness and biomechanics than the average dancer. Strange....:confused:

I watched some videos from a recent Swing contest. Horrible technique for a very advanced dancer. No wonder they get injured. Bad biomechanics, muscle hypertonus, silent inflammation, bad nutrition, latent acidosis, too much stress (cortisol destroys connective tissue!!!), sedentary lifestyle - this are the common reasons for knee degeneration. Not Swing dancing.

[abelian]

Hey Andrea!

The problem I'm finding with group classes and exchanging moves on the dance floor is that you can get tons of ideas for styling and moves. Of course, if this isn't followed up with good private instruction the chances for injury are quite high, not to mention that you technique will suffer, meaning that you aren't gonna be able to do the move at all, even if it looks good.

Presently I'm striking a balance between classes and private instruction. I'm a sucker for technique so I gravitate towards any instructor who can tell me what he's doing, and if he/she can tell me why, that's even better. Safety/health are of paramount concern, and if any teacher tells me "just do it" without being able to assure me that the movement is safe just pisses me off.

[abelian]

Anyway, Andrea, in your experience I'm sure you've come across dancers who were intelligent about technique and good biomechanics. Do you happen to know any one in the US? Doesn't matter what dance style he/she dances. I'm looking for a way to find a physically intelligent dance community, and this seems likes a possible entry point.

[Swing Kid]

Hi abelian,

I agree with you. This is why it's hard for me to find dance partners. Most of them don't care about technique, biomechanics, real understanding, incremental steps and patience. The are goal oriented, not process oriented. If you are especially well coordinated, no SMA, fascia all perfect etc then you can get away with this. But most people aren't such perfect movers.

Most dance teachers are not competent in movement diagnostics.
Some world class dancers can't break down things and make them attainable for non-elite-movers. They are good for teaching master classes not for the rest of the dance world. You are better off with a not so high-level instructor who really knows how he does things because he had a hard time learning it and knows how you can get there. I am better in teaching things that I learned the hard way than in things that I could just do without any problems.


In 10 years of taking dance classes no teacher told me about my coordination deficits, SMA, fear reactivity etc. I had to find a good pilates trainer and a good physiotherapist to learn what I should have learned at the beginning of my dance training. Taking about wasting of time and frustration! :furious:

Some people are aware of this problem, for example Dr. Liane Simmel, dancer at the opera in Munich and MD and osteopath. She founded "Dance Medicine Germany" - a non- profit organization who wants to teach dance teachers about biomechanics, movement correction, proper nutrition and recovery to reduce the injury rate in professional dancing.

In dance success is identical with movement quality. You can't "win" with bad form like in martial arts, soccer or weightlifting because it's not about winning or beating the opponent. Master level in dance means Flow . Strength, endurance, flexibility and fancy tricks alone is not enough.
That's why there are more "acrobats" and "showstars" in dance than real "masters".

"Just do it" is sometimes ok. You will have to just do it first, because every movement learning means going from insufficient technique to better technique. A teacher must observe the student and know when he should interfere immediately with correction and when the student needs time to just practice and correct himself. Too much correction leads to confusion because the student is overwhelmed with all the input and frustrated with the permanent criticism. You can't do everything correct in the beginning.

Private instruction is far superior to classes (but quite expensive). I am this kind of instructor that you are looking for, so I know what you mean. But I have learned that you should stay relaxed - as instructor and as student. Too much ambition (without serenity and patience) is bad for development(I know from experience).

Markus Koch, a German Swing dancer and teacher (I recommend his videos, they are in Engish) told the story that when he started Swing Dancing after his career as a high level ballroom dancer, his instructor worked with him solely on the basic step for three month. Basic step only! Then he was content and Markus was allowed to learn more. Sounds good but I would do this I would have no clients any more. Actually I could have more clients if I didn't care about quality, health, safety, solid foundation and do what the mainstream does. :cool: Let them have fun, give them fancy stuff, don't care about bad technique and abused joints and fascia and give them the illusion they have learned a lot.

In which area do you live? Honestly I don't know many US dancers. Mostly tango teachers. Rebecca Schulman is good, Homer Ladas (San Francasco) comes to my mind. Brigitta Winkler (German tango dancer) teaches in US. Her studio "dance manhattan" is in New York. She is a great teacher. You all find them on you tube.
Markus Koch and Bärbl Kaufer are good Swing teachers. They teach a lot in US. Her website is "World of Swing".

[Coach Camron]

Abelian,

Growing up I danced 4 to 5 nights a week in ballet, tap, jazz, point, modern and my school's dance and flag twirling squad. All during that time I suffered with terrible knee pain including a stint in physical therapy for Osgood-Schlatter Disease. Looking back, I don't think I had Osgood-Schlatter Disease…I had misuse of my joints without proper warm up or compensation. I no longer suffer from any kind of knee pain and it is all thanks to CST.

I think the biggest problem I have seen at ballroom dance studios and dance classes in general is that most students whether in private lessons or group class setting don't do anything to properly warm up for the lesson. I am not suggesting that they need to start out with 50 jumping jacks and 50 push ups but I think most injuries could be prevented with a good session of joint mobility before the start of class. As CST Coaches we all regularly tout the benefits of Intu-Flow and this is one more arena that it is imperative that the joints are warm before beginning a romp across the wooden floor in heeled shoes! A good session of Intu-Flow before any dance class will get the joints cleaned and nourished and ready for the class. I think it also helps to do the hip, leg, knee and ankle circles with your shoes off and then again with your shoes on.

When it comes to dancing I don't think there are any specific moves that need to be avoided you just need to have the awareness of yourself and your abilities to know what you should and shouldn't do on the dance floor. This may seem like a vague answer but just like anything else in CST you need to make sure, on a scale of 1 to 10, that your technique is a 7 or higher and your discomfort is less than 3 with any dance move you are doing. I have found that it is common in dance class to go right from learning a move into performing that move. It is important that you feel comfortable enough with your instructor that you can tell him/her that you need time to "train" the move before you start to perform it. If there is a specific move(s) you would like help deconstructing let me know and I will see if I can help you out with it.

As Coach Billew said, the 7 key components are important when it comes to dancing.

CST 7 Key Components of Structure
Wrist Confirmation
Arm Lock
Shoulder Pack
Crown-to-Coccyx Alignment
Core Activation
Hip Recruitment and
Leg Drive

Shoulder pack is key when it comes to partner dancing and it is probably the hardest to maintain. Obviously you won't be able to keep shoulder pack 100% of the time while dancing but more you are able to maintain shoulder pack the less chance you have of injuring your upper body. Crown-to-Coccyx alignment is also a key component that I regularly see as an area of difficulty for dancers. Many dancers seem to suffer from the sway-back syndrome which many times is due to a lack of core stability and quad dominate legs. If you are using the 7 key components of structure when you dance you will relieve the undue pressure and strain that is put on the knees! These same key components of structure are also needed in Tap Dancing. The better your structure the easier it should be to do any of the tap moves. Tap dancing is ankle intensive so it is key to do LOTS of ankle mobility and compensation for the calves since most Tap shoes have a small heel. A good calf stretch that Kathryn Woodall taught me is to take a large book (like the phone book) and place it under my toes with my heals on the floor. Fold forward with straight legs and try to touch your toes. This will compensate for wearing shoes with any type of heals.

Static stretching should be saved until after the dance class when your muscles are good and warm and you will get the most benefit from the stretch.

[Coach Camron]

Another thought about your post. It is rare to find a dancer that does any kind of strength training to improve their dancing strength. All of the dances you enjoy can exhaust your legs very quickly if you don't run out of breath first. Cardio training and strength training are important along with plyometric training to have the explosive strength in your legs necessary to move you around the floor to keep up with the music.

[abelian]

What's a good Prasara flow to compensate for the postures used in dancing. I'm thinking of Lindy where the body is not as upright as in ballroom and the CG is kept low to the ground. Kind of like in a shallow squat.

[Coach Billew]

This assessment is based purely on watching videos of the lindy hop, and some vague memories of cotillion years ago, but based on the low, and rounded posture, and what I observed of the leg movement, I would recommend flock of pigeons from the pre-existing flows. Although the ideal situation would be to get with a Coach and have a flow created for your particular performance of the lindy.