Qigong?

[jphaas]

Hi Everyone,

I have been reading Ken Cohen's The Way of Qigong book and trying to figure out what type of qigong would be beneficial for me to practice in addition to my regular regimen of CST.
How many people practice some type of Qigong workout in addition to their BodyFlow, Clubbells, Warrior Wellness, Be Breathed, or martial arts training, etc.? Which types of qigong do you practice and how do you feel it enhances your CST and overall training regiment? Thanks for any help!

Jon

[James Boelter]

I think Ken Cohen wrote a very valuable introductory/educational work with 'The Way Of QiGong', but any serious student will soon find that his approaches are somewhat lacking in rigor and sophistication if they seriously want to improve their athletic performance and martial ability. Nothing against Mr. Cohen - I attended a seminar with him 7-8 years ago, and thought he was a very nice man and a good scholar/researcher, and that he knew his stuff and meant well. But my own chi kung/martial arts teacher has far more skill and his senior students could put Cohen's students to shame.

IMO, Cohen tends to 'dumb down' his material in an attempt to make it more accesible to Westerners who might otherwise find the subject too imposing or 'scary'. He turns Chi Kung into just another stress reduction/'all paths lead to the same end' self improvement gig. The end result is material that looks like any other pluralistic New Age/Age Of Aquarius approach.

I have a similar problem with Jwing Ming Yang, who is very prolific and certainly played a great role in advancing and popularizing Chinese Martial Arts, TCM and QiGong in the West. But his material lacks 'soul', for want of a better word - and it is based on the fallacious idea of semen retention (an ancient Hindu/Chinese superstition) as the basis for chi advancement, as opposed to the mental/psychological benefits of being more relaxed and less compulsive about sex and eroticism.

So what would I recommend? I'm glad you asked!

Single best work on the subject of practical chi kung and martial arts training for health promotion: Cartmell and Millers' 'Xing Yi Nei Gong'; this book is written from a Hsing I master's perspective and includes the single best comprehensive routine for health promotion, joint health, and overall flexibility I have ever seen anywhere. Additional material regarding standing meditation ('San Ti' in the Hsing I tradition) and the nature of internal martial arts and the benefits of chi kung/QiGong will get you very fired up about the subject if anything will. You will find a lot of stuff here that ties in quite well with 'Body Flow', even if the background and terminology differs.
2nd most valuable work: "Chi Kung: The Way Of Power" by Lam Kam Chuen. Beautifully produced book with valuable information on the use of standing meditation to improve health, vitality, athetic ability and martial power. Comes out of the I Chuan/DaChengQhan tradition founded by a Chinese internal martial arts grandmaster who revolutionized and revived the internal martial arts tradition and beat the living daylights out of any number of opponents by way of proving the merit of his approach.

Single best work on the subject of sitting meditation and the MicroCosmic Orbit: "QiGong Teachings Of a Taoist Immortal" by Stuart Olson. This is essentially a book which puts captures in book form the essence of the single most important and influential chi kung workshop I ever attended. 7 year later I am STILL digging into the implications and exercises of that semian and reaping great benefits from it.

[JClayton]

Jon,

I practice qigong every morning without fail, and honestly feel that it contributes a tremendous amount to my overall health and wellbeing. Over the last 12 years I have learned many different styles, from teachers here and in China. With the exception of hard qigong styles (which are intended to develop the ability to withstand strikes), my experience is that the most important thing is to find a style that you enjoy practicing so that you can develop a consistent routine. As with many health practices, 15 minutes a day over years will be of much more benefit than 1 hour a day for three months.

James,

I personally don't see what is "soulless' about Dr. Yang's books. He was educated as an engineer, so perhaps you find his writing lifeless. Nonetheless, I find his qigong books to be very good.

I'd also be curious to hear more about why you simultaneously feel the idea of semen retention is fallcaious, but at the same time wholeheartedly endorse the Cartmell/Miller Xing Yi Nei Gong book. There are several references in the later about the need to conserve original pre-birth qi and the dangers of excess sexual activity. As far as I am aware, this is an idea found in nearly every traditional practice of qigong and internal martial arts.

Nonetheless, I agree that the Chuen book is excellent as well.

Regards,

[James Boelter]

Jon,

Don't want to lose track of the original purpose of the thread...so let me say that these are JUST my opinions and reactions; I understand from the get-go that some people will feel differently than I do and will do just fine with Dr. Yang's materials. Interesting idea about his engineering background and how it affects his writing and presentation; I hadn't thought of that. I do respect his efforts to make some pretty abtruse and complex material understandable and approachable.

As to why I endorse Cartmell/Miller's compilations and not Yang's...I read the materials as advocating a yogi's dispassion and detachment from the 'suffering' of the 'three fires' - in other words, as a result of practicing moderation and calmness, and not as a literal prescription. The whole idea of 'semen retention' was the first question I asked of Stuart Olson (adopted son and disciple of T.T. Liang) when I met him, and he laughed at the idea - he attributed the popularization of this idea to a literal reading of many of the old Taoist texts without actually understanding the process from personal experience. Cartmell/Miller's hsing I master practiced sexual conservation as a natural outgrowth of his increased yogic devotion and growth and age, not as a driving force as Yang would have it.

Again, just MY opinion!

[Vbrown]

The quirky bits on semenal retention (how DID we get on this topic) have alot to do with what line of qigong you are exploring. There are a few I know of that are not mistranslations, as they come from native speakers. But they are peculiar to the system/method. But they do make for some great stories...

To address some of the main question; qigong is a varied as there are goals in life. From quiet cultivation to shockingly violent covers the range. In their own way, they match the CST path of matching your training to your point of weakness and aiming to a specific goal.

Many training methods are descriptive methods to bringing one's intent (or awareness) to a particular region of the body to take a greater control of it. Like finding one's area of motor amnesia. But there are other methods that are more involved.

I have no idea if this has helped.

Vince

[jphaas]

James,

Thank you for the informative and detailed response. I actually already have most of the books you listed (they are sitting on my shelf waiting to be read). :D
Now I have a logistical question for you - do you do the various types of qigong together or on a rotating basis or in a CST like cycle? Also, how do you fit it in with the various CST modalities, such as Warrior Wellness?

Justin,

Which type of qigong do you practice daily and is there a resource that you can direct me to? Or would it be better to simply start with the numerous resources James has already listed? And thank you for your response as well.

Vince,

Thanks for chiming in here too. As for the subject of semen retention, I have no idea how we got on the subject!! :shock:

[James Boelter]

I like to 'rotate' methods according to the principles of 'Consistent Winning' - 3 month peaking cycles (in terms of volume and time spent) with fallow periods in between. I alternate between Yang family Tai Chi Chi Kung (which includes a fair amount of standing meditation), pure standing meditation, and 18 Buddha Hands (the form taught by Larry Johnson) which contains brief standing postures at the end of each of the 18 'stations' to consolidate the effects of the exercises which start the 'station'. I almost always begin with the 17 exercises from the Xing Yi Nei Gong book I mentioned earlier, for varing repetitions depending on time and energy and enthusiam. There are enough joint rotations and etc in these regimes that I don't feel the need to do Warrior Wellness as a formal practice, although I plan to add the 4 corner drill to my practice soon.

[jphaas]

That makes sense. 3 month cycles seem to roughly corespond to my attention span when training on particular set of exercises. Change on a quarterly basis is good. :D
In addition to the nicely sized pile of books you've already recommended, where would I find a resource on the Yang family Tai Chi Chi Kung method?

Thanks again for the help!

Jon

[James Boelter]

If you can find it, Stuart Olson wrote a book detailing the method titled 'Cultivating the Chi', orginally published by Dragondoor publications.
Some very nice stop motion/time lapse photography and a lot of neat ancillary material.

I think that John DuCane incorporates the essence of the method in his video 'Bliss QiGong', still available from Dragondoor. John learned the Yang TCCK method directly from Stuart (as I also had the good fortune to do), and he is a serious and pretty accomplished QiGong teacher, so I imagine the video would be quite good -his "Five Animal Frolics" videos are extremely well done, even though I don't care for that version of the Frolics, and this was made at the same time as those were, so it should be of the same quality.

[somlor]

James, what don't you like about DuCane's Five Animal Frolics? I'm curious because I practice the Frolics from Michael Winn's tape and had been looking for other forms to study and enhance my practice. Can you recommend another?

Also, would you recommend the companion video tape to Cartmell's 'Xing Yi Nei Gong' book? This book is a purchase I've put off for too long and I'm wondering wether it's worth dropping an extra $25 and getting the book+video bundle.

Thanks.

[Vbrown]

Cartmell's book is very good, but the companion video is not worth the money.

The quality of the book rests mainly on the history and interviews. The exercises are nothing particularly special or unique, IMHO. But the photos of the tough old man (IIRC, well into his 70's) doing them is pretty darn nice.

For you xingyi geeks outthere, the still photos of a power development set done with the spear is excellent. It's a great set, but a bit tricky to learn. It is not demoed on the compainion video. Which ticked me off a bit.

But I still dig Tim's work over all. I wish him all the best.

Vince

[James Boelter]

Sean,
There is nothing 'wrong' with the Five Animal Frolics version John teaches,
they work fine. However I was hoping (when I ordered) that it would be based on the well known 'Walking' frolics detailed in 'QiGong Essentials For Health Promotion'. I finally found the pure 'walking' frolic forms (5 sets of 5 animals) in Dr. Xue Zhi Wang's 'Chi Kung: Five Animal Frolics' video. They just seem, to me, to be more elegant and 'unified' in their feel and performance; also the 'stepping' and weight shift protocols and circular walking patterns add a neat dimension to the performance. Stepping Gong is almost always more sophisticated and harder to learn to do well than stationary Gong and tends to generate even more energy once you know what you are doing. Dr. Wang's version seems to have more of a 'BodyFlow' feel to them, in otherwords. (Note - the frolics on John's tapes do have some walking frolics, but the emphasis is on stationary standing forms).

Again, just my opinion. I repeat, the Dragondoor Five Animal tapes are very well done and you can definitely learn the forms from them.

[AdamCrafter]

Jon,
....snipped...
James,

I personally don't see what is "soulless' about Dr. Yang's books. He was educated as an engineer, so perhaps you find his writing lifeless. Nonetheless, I find his qigong books to be very good.
....snipped....
Regards,

This lit a small bulb above my head.

I was raised by an engineer, and have been educated as an engineer.
When I was browsing my way around books looking for communication and comprehension, I stopped at Dr. Yang's books because they seemed most accessible.

It's just a reminder to me that communication, even through the written word, is a two way street.

Perhaps I should seek out more good Health/Exercise/Practice works written by engineers...

Any suggestions?

Adam Crafter
Lawrence, KS, USA

[Vbrown]

Mike Sigman's work. plumflower press I think has his stuff. It's on video.

He's an electrical engineer and a hell of a taiji player.

Vince

[Arluk]

Moshe Feldenkrais was an engineer, not exactly Qigong but interesting none the less.

[Matt Vierra]

Jon, i don't know if you are still in NJ, but there are instructors in Narberth, PA and NYC for a style of Qi Gong that i have taken. I had the chance to take a 6 hour class with Master Li last year--it was amazing. I try to do Qi Gong 3 times a week in the pool after my Warrior Wellness, Clubbell, and interval bike workouts. It is not traditionally done in water, but i do it nonetheless. I love it! It stimulates my physical creativity and relaxes me at the same time. the website is http://www.shengzhen.org/

[Coach Tran]

Jon,

I liked Peter Ragnar's Magentic Chi Gong program www.roaringlionpublishing.com and I like his other programs as well. I believe the great work is not only physical but should include inner work such creative visualization, mediation, prayers, and psychological/spiritual work. I have developed some inner discipline work which has helped me in my CST work, business, and relationship.

One in CST,
Bao

[Coach Tran]

Jon,

There is a great chi gong sifu in our area named Robert Peng which has some amazing chi gong abilities. He is currently my chi gong and meditation sifu.

[Buddy]

I teach BK Frantzis neigong and 8 brocade I learned from Luo Dexiu, Tim's (and my) baguazhang teacher. Both superior methods for my money.

[flex]

I would stay away from it.I have heard nothing but bad things about qiqong.It may be healthful for the body but it is really a danger for your spirit.I know people that have fell into dark cults because of it.

[Kathryn Woodall]

I would stay away from it.I have heard nothing but bad things about qiqong.It may be healthful for the body but it is really a danger for your spirit.I know people that have fell into dark cults because of it.

Sean,
I have had the pleasure of meeting several people who have practiced QiGong for many years with positive benefits. Not one of them has fallen into a dark cult nor is it likely that they will. The only thing that can lead anyone into something "dark" or "light" is their choices. If you are interested in having a better understanding of what QiGong is, you could check out Coach Wilson's RMAX Powered QiGong DVD.

[Scott Sonnon]

I would stay away from it.I have heard nothing but bad things about qiqong.It may be healthful for the body but it is really a danger for your spirit.I know people that have fell into dark cults because of it.

There have been cults which have formed over cargo dropped from the airplanes. Anything is dangerous in the hands of the wicked and desperate.

St Thomas Aquinas wrote, "Nothing is intrinsically good or evil; our usage makes it so."

[Coach Jones]

Originally Posted by flex
I would stay away from it.I have heard nothing but bad things about qiqong.It may be healthful for the body but it is really a danger for your spirit.I know people that have fell into dark cults because of it.



http://www.southparkx.net/gallery/data/media/26/cult.jpg

[Randell Waddell]

I am somewhat surprised that so far, in quite an in-depth assessment of these areas, that no mention has been made of the vocalized / sound induced vibrating Qigongs.

Cheers,

[Coach Wilson]

In RMAX Powered Qigong, my goal was to put together a program that anyone could do that would de-mystify qigong practice. I have read and/or seen almost all the sources mentioned in this thread, and they all have something to offer. the important thing is just to find something that you are comfortable with and put it into practice.

IMO qigong is simply co-ordinating your breath-movement-structure with a specific intention (generally relaxation or focus etc.). So, forget about all the qigong wars and try a prctice for a week or two and see if you like it. It cannot hurt. Smile.

Always,

Joseph

[Coach Jones]

I am somewhat surprised that so far, in quite an in-depth assessment of these areas, that no mention has been made of the vocalized / sound induced vibrating Qigongs.

I'll mention it, Randell.;)

I have worked with several different forms of this type of Qigong and I will say that they are quite fun. There's something about it, whether it's the esoteric quality of the exercises or what, they're fun.

My problem with them, is that they are not accessible to the man(or woman) on the street.

They are very complex and should only be approached after a very specific type of foundation has been built. The majority of people out there teaching theses types of Qigongs are bogus. They did not recieve instruction but rather pieced it together from books and such. I would be amazed at the person who could do that.

The trouble with any of the softer Qigongs and those with aspects similar to those that use sounds is that most people use these things in place of physical training which is not the intent.

It's similar to things such as iron body or iron palm...icing on the cake.

It will not replace physical training nor was it meant to.

"Remember thou art mortal".

Unfortunately, the leading practitioner of this type of Qigong in this country, while very knowledgable is a prime example of how people misuse Qigong. Not because he doesn't no better, but because he has some other issues going on that he is clearly in denial about.

He's spent decades learning and teaching these types of Qigongs and IMA's and he's more than a little doughy around the middle. If he wanted to impress me as to actual health benefits of these Qigongs, i'd like to see a cholesterol test.

The ridiculous thing is, no one will be able to identify who i'm talking about because when I say he's doughy around the middle, I could be talking about 1 of thousands of IMA/Qigong instructors out there. Crazy.

Do they work? I wouldn't say yes and I wouldn't say no. I will say that their have been many a practioner of these that have died pretty early and I don't know of any that have pushed the boundaries of long life. There are of course the legends, but I tend to take those with a grain of salt..."wild history" and whatnot.

Before anyone takes up one of these types of Qigongs I would recommmend approaching it with an open mind, but use common sense. If an seemingly unhealthy person wants to give you some information on anything that will make you healthier...be a little skeptical.

[Quentin Vaughan]

Before anyone takes up one of these types of Qigongs I would recommmend approaching it with an open mind, but use common sense. If an seemingly unhealthy person wants to give you some information on anything that will make you healthier...be a little skeptical.

amen bro! i love this Forum.

Q