Ultimate post workout nutrition

[123 MMA]

What do you usually consume post workout, after a strength and conditioning session. What do you think is the ultimate?

Not all things are created equally such as beef only has a 80% absorption rate I believe, as some people say all meat is just as good as each other.

[John B]

I normally get my training sessions in just before dinner, as that works best with my current schedule. So, I normally get in a piece or two of juicy fruit and then dinner.

However, were I to train at a different time, I'd ideally do a green smoothie post training. A lot of clean, naturally filtered water and good mineral balance. Easier to digest, less taxing on the system.

At the very least, you're going to want to hit water to rehydrate - simple but many people overlook its importance.

[pigram86]

a protein drink, usually whey. If I am out of powder, then chocolate milk.

Check this link on why milk is the ultimate post workout drink, in their opinion.
http://stronglifts.com/milk-post-workout-build-muscle-gains/?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+stronglifts+%28StrongLifts.co m+-+Build+Muscle%2C+Lose+Fat+%26+Get+Stronger%29

[123 MMA]

a protein drink, usually whey. If I am out of powder, then chocolate milk.

Check this link on why milk is the ultimate post workout drink, in their opinion.
http://stronglifts.com/milk-post-workout-build-muscle-gains/?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+stronglifts+%28StrongLifts.co m+-+Build+Muscle%2C+Lose+Fat+%26+Get+Stronger%29

Interesting read but it goes against when many nutritionists say to not drink milk.

[shadow]

Young coconut juice, a couple of raw eggs, spirulina, 1 banana, some kind of protein powder... blended up

The young coconut juice and just spirulina is pretty damn good as is anyway.

[123 MMA]

Young coconut juice, a couple of raw eggs, spirulina, 1 banana, some kind of protein powder... blended up

The young coconut juice and just spirulina is pretty damn good as is anyway.

Raw eggs!:eek:

Are they healthy to consume, I thought their was a salmonella risk with raw eggs. Nutrition wise that does look excellent though.

[123 MMA]

Just looked into it, they seem to be very good 4 you.

http://www.regenerativenutrition.com/content.asp?id=268 I read here that you shouldn't blend them as the molecule structure is damaged.

[shadow]

I dunno.

Everyone says all kinds of things.

Dr. Mercola likes to blend them in his post-workout nutrition, which is where I took mine from.

Raw eggs and banana blended tastes good too.

[123 MMA]

I dunno.

Everyone says all kinds of things.

Dr. Mercola likes to blend them in his post-workout nutrition, which is where I took mine from.

Raw eggs and banana blended tastes good too.

Cool, Mercola, I like him he seems very knowledgeable and friendly.

Yes it is hard to decide when every nutritionist or person has a different opinion.

[wiggy1]

Yes it is hard to decide when every nutritionist or person has a different opinion.


This is why I remind my clients that everybody and every body is different. Educate and experiment, find what works best for you (through journaling so that you know exactly what you've done) and stick with what works.

[123 MMA]

I know wikepedia isn't exactly the most reliable source but what do you think about this,

"They can also be eaten raw, though this is not recommended for people who may be especially susceptible to salmonella, such as the elderly, the infirm, or pregnant women. In addition, the protein in raw eggs is only 51% bio-available, whereas that of a cooked egg is nearer 91% bio-available, meaning the protein of cooked eggs is nearly twice as absorbable as the protein from raw eggs."

More opinions again?

[shadow]

Wouldn't have a clue about the protein availability....

However I only eat free range organic eggs raw, so I am less concerned about salmonella.

[BrainSquirt]

re eggs
as wiggy1 says "everybody and every body is different"
I personally wouldn't use them consistently for post workout. I do eggs in spurts and ultimately don't consume huge quantities. I also avoid eggs from those long stinky buildings. Crack a fresh free range egg beside one from a long, stinky shed to see...

http://whfoods.org/genpage.php?tname=foodspice&dbid=92

hth

[porty]

Hi,

Here's my unstanding of Raw eggs. It's fine to eat raw egg yolks, but the egg whites contain a substance called avidin, which interferes with the absorptin of biotin, a B vitamin, they also contain Trypsin inhibitors, which interfere with protein digestion. These antinitrients are neutralized by light cooking. Also, If I'm right I remember Dr Mercola changed his thinking on raw egg whites about 2 years ago and recommended people not consume them.

[123 MMA]

Hi,

Here's my unstanding of Raw eggs. It's fine to eat raw egg yolks, but the egg whites contain a substance called avidin, which interferes with the absorptin of biotin, a B vitamin, they also contain Trypsin inhibitors, which interfere with protein digestion. These antinitrients are neutralized by light cooking. Also, If I'm right I remember Dr Mercola changed his thinking on raw egg whites about 2 years ago and recommended people not consume them.

so cooking them lightly seems the best way, same with everything right?

[porty]

Here's the latest from Dr Mercola on raw eggs:

http://articles.mercola.com/sites/articles/archive/2005/02/09/raw-eggs.aspx

There's so many different opinions about eating eggs. I normally eat the yolk raw and lightly cook the egg white, but after reading Mercola's latest information I might try a raw one and see how it goes.

[123 MMA]

Here's the latest from Dr Mercola on raw eggs:

http://articles.mercola.com/sites/articles/archive/2005/02/09/raw-eggs.aspx

There's so many different opinions about eating eggs. I normally eat the yolk raw and lightly cook the egg white, but after reading Mercola's latest information I might try a raw one and see how it goes.

I think i'll avoid them, seems a bit blurred and he recommends all these supplements that you have to take if you are going to eat them.

[shadow]

Honestly I posted the raw egg thing after reading Mercola... I had had raw eggs in smoothies before and they seemed fine.

I tried 3 raw egg yolks in my post workout smoothie today... I think I can do better without them.

Getting more sensitive in my body, and whilst they weren't bad I didn't feel much benefit from adding them either.

Coconut juice and spirulina is probably still my favourite.

[Coach Gostnell]

Coconut juice and spirulina is probably still my favourite.
What's not to love? :)

[shadow]

Yep... electrolytes, enzymes, magnesium, carbohydrates from the coconut juice

65%+ protein (all essential aminos), chlorophyll, vitamins & minerals from the spirulina.

Goodies.

[123 MMA]

Yep... electrolytes, enzymes, magnesium, carbohydrates from the coconut juice

65%+ protein (all essential aminos), chlorophyll, vitamins & minerals from the spirulina.

Goodies.

is it enough protein?

I would rather have that type of post workout drink that what I usually have, what do you train for? Is the protein content enough for someone trying to build explosive strength and speed for MMA?

[shadow]

How much protein is enough?

And why do you actually 'need' protein after a workout?

Brad Pilon has a book about protein and his findings were that protein needs are actually considerably smaller than people realise... and that more protein does not equal more muscle.
Also that protein after a workout does nothing.

I think electrolyte replacement is the most important thing to do after a workout to avoid dehydration.

[123 MMA]

How much protein is enough?

And why do you actually 'need' protein after a workout?

Brad Pilon has a book about protein and his findings were that protein needs are actually considerably smaller than people realise... and that more protein does not equal more muscle.
Also that protein after a workout does nothing.

I think electrolyte replacement is the most important thing to do after a workout to avoid dehydration.

To repair muscles? But yes I agree that many people get too much protein, which isn't all absorbed well as they are missing out all the other nutrients our bodies need.

[shadow]

Does muscle repairs begin immediately post workout?

I don't think so... I think it happens over the following 24-48 hours.

I think post workout, meaning breakfast that morning, protein in the form of complete whole high quality protein (i.e. whole food animal sources) is probably considerably more important. Thus the amino acids are already there in the body ready to be utilised.


I dunno, maybe, maybe not.

A small banana and some young coconut juice seems to be enough for me.

[123 MMA]

Does muscle repairs begin immediately post workout?

I don't think so... I think it happens over the following 24-48 hours.

I think post workout, meaning breakfast that morning, protein in the form of complete whole high quality protein (i.e. whole food animal sources) is probably considerably more important. Thus the amino acids are already there in the body ready to be utilised.


I dunno, maybe, maybe not.

A small banana and some young coconut juice seems to be enough for me.

How strong are you? Clubbell®®, Kettlebell wise, what weights are you typically using, what do you train for?

About the not needing protein statement, I don't think we need as much post workout as much as people say but not any at all.. that's a bit far, but then again, depends what you are training for.

[BrainSquirt]

http://www.jissn.com/content/pdf/1550-2783-5-17.pdf

plus individual tweaking...

[123 MMA]

http://www.jissn.com/content/pdf/1550-2783-5-17.pdf

plus individual tweaking...

I cant read it all now as I am about to go to bed, but what is CHO?

I'll read the whole article tomorrow.

[123 MMA]

Regarding all the amino acids it says to take pre and during a workout, I don't see many people who are doing that, on here aswell.

[BrainSquirt]

MMA123
CHO = high-glycemic, high-carbohydrate i.e. fast simple carbs.


Maximization of muscle glycogen re-synthesis
Athletes who ingest 1.5 g CHO/kg body wt. within 30 minutes after exercise have been shown to experience a greater rate of muscle glycogen re-synthesis than when supplementation is delayed by two hours, largely due to a greater sensitivity of muscle to insulin [61]. Additionally, both solid and liquid forms of CHO promote similar levels of glycogen re-synthesis [15,62,63]. Moreover, different forms of CHO have different effects on insulin levels, with fructose ingestion being associated with lower levels of glycogen re-synthesis than other forms of simple carbohydrates [64]. It has been demonstrated that delaying CHO ingestion by as little as two hours can reduce the rate offollowing exercise is recommended to ensure recovery of muscle and liver glycogen muscle glycogen re-synthesis by 50% [61]. If an athlete is glycogen-depleted after exercise, a CHO intake of 0.6 – 1.0 g CHO/kg/h during the first 30 minutes, and again every two hours for 4 – 6 hours, can adequately replace glycogen stores [65,66]. Similarly, maximal glycogen re-synthesis rates have been achieved when 1.2 g CHO/kg/h is consumed every 15 – 30 minutes [65,67]. Consequently, frequent feedings of CHO in high amounts over the 4 – 6 hours From the article cited above.
Basically, this is why other posters herein are not ‘all wrong’ when they discount the importance of post workout nutrition… Maximization of muscle glycogen re-synthesis is one of the only things that really distinguish immediate post workout nutrition from other times. My take on all this is that it is more individualized than most of us would like to think.

More on CHO

The addition of dietary carbohydrate causes increases insulin production, which further increases GH release, which in turn further increases the release of IGF. These increases in turn, have been shown to further increase protein synthesis and muscle growth after a bout of exercise as well as increasing the uptake of amino acids. By adding amino acids after exercise we have further increased the available free amino acid pool as well. Amino acids are necessary for protein synthesis to take place. So without the insulin rebound after exercise, the body would remain in a catabolic state.
… why it is suggested that carbohydrate be taken with protein immediately following a bout if exercise. We know that with the onset of exercise, ATP is the immediate source of energy. As the exercise progresses, the ATP stores are reduced and glycogen and glucose are also utilized by the muscle for fuel. With more muscle glycogen and glucose being used for energy, blood glucose levels soon begin to drop. Insulin levels soon begin to fall as well. This is the point at which FFA is released from the adipose tissue and becomes a reserve source of fuel.
As we near the end of our training, the body is now in a hypoglycemic stage. The blood sugar is low and the insulin level has dropped. Immediately after exercise as explained earlier, GH production is increased as insulin levels start to rebound. A carbohydrate supplement following exercise will elevate blood glucose levels and cause a state of hyperglycemia forcing further production of insulin. The high levels of insulin in the blood now force much needed glucose and amino acids through the receptor sites in the muscle cell at a quicker rate. This high level of blood glucose will eventually cause further GH secretions. Soon the high levels of insulin utilize the extra carbohydrate and the blood glucose levels once again drop. Of course the insulin level now drops as it did during exercise. GH secreats once again starts as the rebound effect begins all over.

My take on all this is that it is more individualized than most of us would like to think.


During a bout of exercise catabolic responses cause the proteins and muscle tissue to be broken down. Obviously the higher the intensity of the exercise the more catabolic the response will be. Meaning the more protein and muscle tissue is broken down while exercising. During the exercise phase there are loses in vitamins, minerals as well as increases in the adrenal production of catecholamines and glucocorticoids. So cortisol increases, glucagon increases, and insulin decreases. Thus, protein tissue degradation increases and protein synthesis decreases or stops while in the exercise phase.
…
Immediately after exercise in the post-exercise phase, a restorative rebound in the naturally occurring anabolic hormones occurs. These hormones include insulin, growth hormone (GH), IGF, pineal and thymic factors, as well as the steroid hormones testosterone, DHEA, and estrogens. This post-exercise response is also known as biochemical or metabolic supercompensation. During this supercompensation period HIGH LEVELS of these anabolic hormones, particularly INSULIN, GH, and IGF, are NECESSARY during close post-exercise restorative phase to provide MAXIMAL PROTEIN SYNTHESIS. High levels of these same hormones are also necessary to restore the negative metabolic effect created by catecholamines and glucocorticoids produced during exercise. It should be noted that testosterone is highest during mid-exercise but falls off slightly immediately post-exercise. It does not seem to be involved in the earlier stages of post-exercise as the hormones insulin, GH, and IGF. Testosterone usually appears again during later phases of post-workout recovery. So this tells us that immediately following a bout of exercise, there will be an increase in the production of both GH and INSULIN. Both INSULIN and GH ARE very necessary for optimal protein synthesis.
sorry lost the source for this 'bro-science'. Pls just google a unique phrase to find it.

One more time - My take on all this is that it is more individualized than most of us would like to think.

It may also be just as important for you individually to support nitrogen retention post workouts as it is to find the perfect protein drink.

Also, some individuals can more easily trigger 'recovery'/ "anabolism" ANYTIME by pounding fast aminos and fast carbs to a stomach that has been empty for at least 3 hours. My take on all this is that it is more individualized than most of us would like to think.:) hth

[123 MMA]

I dont even know what to say... i'm confused with all this.

Definitly going to add some electrolytes to my post workout though, I always neglected this.

I'm researching what exactly i'm going to use, coconut juice is quite expensive.

A lot of sites are saying to put baking soda in the mix, i'm not putting that crap inside me, rather find a healthy alternative.

Still keeping the high protein content in the post workout meal/ shake.

[123 MMA]

Okay I now have another question, how do you replace all your electrolytes if you are having a normal meal post workout such as chicken, rice and vegetables?

[123 MMA]

Thinking about getting some RAW organic milk as well to use post workout.

Added with some cacao beans/ powder, banana, some salt. Coconut juice aswell maybe.

[shadow]

Avoid that cacao... just another stimulant and adrenal burner, essentially the same as coffee raw or otherwise.

Raw milk is good stuff, goats milk is better.

Simpler is better.

[Chuck Kechter]

Simpler is better.

Cutting to the chase... This is what you should pay attention to.

Get your macro nutrients in order first... then "worry" about your micro content.

The rest of this is so individualized (as "BrainSquirt" wrote) as to be almost impenetrable... And will take some time and experimentation to find what works for you.

Remember big stones go in the jar first: protein, leaves, greens, berries, seeds and nuts (that kind of stuff). Water over "electrolytes" sports drinks. Simplify.

Then the smaller stones...

Finally pour in the grains of sand...

"Any intelligent fool can make things bigger, more complex, and more violent. It takes a touch of genius -- and a lot of courage -- to move in the opposite direction." -Albert Einstein

[123 MMA]

Avoid that cacao... just another stimulant and adrenal burner, essentially the same as coffee raw or otherwise.

Raw milk is good stuff, goats milk is better.

Simpler is better.

As long as you are not putting tonnes in the stimulating effects won't be bad or too powerful.

Extremely high magnesium content, anti oxidants, good for the brain, not at all like coffee.

Going to look into goats milk, will probably try them both. Have you tried them yourself?

[123 MMA]

Cutting to the chase... This is what you should pay attention to.

Get your macro nutrients in order first... then "worry" about your micro content.

The rest of this is so individualized (as "BrainSquirt" wrote) as to be almost impenetrable... And will take some time and experimentation to find what works for you.

Remember big stones go in the jar first: protein, leaves, greens, berries, seeds and nuts (that kind of stuff). Water over "electrolytes" sports drinks. Simplify.

Then the smaller stones...

Finally pour in the grains of sand...

"Any intelligent fool can make things bigger, more complex, and more violent. It takes a touch of genius -- and a lot of courage -- to move in the opposite direction." -Albert Einstein

I understand your overall diet should take priority, mine does.

What do you have post workout? I get the point that it is individualised i'm just curious.

Yesterday I had Sun Warrior protein, spiriluna and a banana in a smoothie. I didn't really sweat much so didn't bother with all the electrolytes, albeit their is some potassium in the banana.

[Chuck Kechter]

I understand your overall diet should take priority, mine does.

What do you have post workout? I get the point that it is individualised i'm just curious.

Yesterday I had Sun Warrior protein, spiriluna and a banana in a smoothie. I didn't really sweat much so didn't bother with all the electrolytes, albeit their is some potassium in the banana.

Which workout? :)

After my last, I had 3-4oz seared Ahi tuna, a spinach salad, and black tea... Food. Not dehydrated, dessicated protein powder, made palatable by adding fruit, algea (or whatever).

You say you know... Yet it seems you don't practice...

Big stones... Medium stones... Sand...

"Knowing is not enough, you must apply. Willing is not enough, you must do" -Bruce Lee (after Goethe)

[shadow]

Algae is actually pretty unpalatable anyway haha.... I have dropped the spirulina after looking into it a bit more.


Exactly Chuck.... food, glorious food.

A post workout meal, I think, actually takes place pre-workout.... recovery determined by the quality of the meals earlier in the day and in the previous day.

[123 MMA]

Which workout? :)

After my last, I had 3-4oz seared Ahi tuna, a spinach salad, and black tea... Food. Not dehydrated, dessicated protein powder, made palatable by adding fruit, algea (or whatever).

You say you know... Yet it seems you don't practice...

Big stones... Medium stones... Sand...

"Knowing is not enough, you must apply. Willing is not enough, you must do" -Bruce Lee (after Goethe)

well i usually have food but i had friends round doing the workout so I had some protein powder, anyway the sun warrior powder is created on a low heat and is 100% raw organic.

[123 MMA]

Algae is actually pretty unpalatable anyway haha.... I have dropped the spirulina after looking into it a bit more.


Exactly Chuck.... food, glorious food.

A post workout meal, I think, actually takes place pre-workout.... recovery determined by the quality of the meals earlier in the day and in the previous day.

why did you drop the spiriluna?

[shadow]

Honestly... I don't really like it very much.

It doesn't taste nice, is reasonably expensive and the only reason I ate it was out of fear.

Yeah, fear.

All these superfoods and stuff, eating raw, etc... it's all fear based motivation.

I bought into the idea that if I don't eat raw and load up my diet with superfoods I will somehow miss out on natural vitality and exuberance... that I would be doomed to low performance and degenerative disease.

Truth is, within healthy reason.... the healthiest diet *must* be one that is satisfying, nourishing, palatable and delicious.

I have been reading the works of Dr Larry Wilson (www.drlwilson.com) and find his ideas on nutrition to be refreshing and appealing.

Eating according to his reccomendations of a diet for a 'slow oxidiser' is delicious, satisfying, nourishing and easy to digest as well as reasonably easy to prepare and able to provide a lot of variety at a reasonable cost.

I went down the raw food path for a while and found all this superfood stuff I had to mix with sweet things to make it palatable. Raw veggies, while when I got the 'combination' right (usually by adding lots of cacao or other stimulants) felt energizing (read stimulating, in that causing the adrenals to be overworked... symptomatic energy not necessarily true vitality), more often than not were difficult to digest and left me feeling weird, spacey and cold inside.

Everyone has the right to figure out what works for them... I have some friends who are trained in hair analysis and I have just given some hair for analysis. I will await the results and then begin specific supplementation and diet for nutritional balancing.

I am ready and willing to give this path a go because it is specific and personal, easy to prepare and feels good and even 'right' to me plus the theoretical logic of the arguments he presents for why to eat this way really resonate with me.

He reccomends against spirulina, and a bunch of other stuff. I am happy to drop it because it never tasted nice with anything unless hidden by lots of cacao and banana.

Much easier than forcing stuff I don't really enjoy into a smoothie with sweet stuff just so I can get it down my gullet.


This is just my choice for now. I have jumped from diet to diet looking for what fits, what feels right, what works and this is the first time I have felt like I could relax and just enjoy my food and feel it is right for me.
It may be right, it may not be.

[priyam]

Honestly... I don't really like it very much.

It doesn't taste nice, is reasonably expensive and the only reason I ate it was out of fear.

Yeah, fear.

All these superfoods and stuff, eating raw, etc... it's all fear based motivation.

I bought into the idea that if I don't eat raw and load up my diet with superfoods I will somehow miss out on natural vitality and exuberance... that I would be doomed to low performance and degenerative disease.

Truth is, within healthy reason.... the healthiest diet *must* be one that is satisfying, nourishing, palatable and delicious.

I have been reading the works of Dr Larry Wilson (www.drlwilson.com) and find his ideas on nutrition to be refreshing and appealing.

Eating according to his reccomendations of a diet for a 'slow oxidiser' is delicious, satisfying, nourishing and easy to digest as well as reasonably easy to prepare and able to provide a lot of variety at a reasonable cost.

I went down the raw food path for a while and found all this superfood stuff I had to mix with sweet things to make it palatable. Raw veggies, while when I got the 'combination' right (usually by adding lots of cacao or other stimulants) felt energizing (read stimulating, in that causing the adrenals to be overworked... symptomatic energy not necessarily true vitality), more often than not were difficult to digest and left me feeling weird, spacey and cold inside.

Everyone has the right to figure out what works for them... I have some friends who are trained in hair analysis and I have just given some hair for analysis. I will await the results and then begin specific supplementation and diet for nutritional balancing.

I am ready and willing to give this path a go because it is specific and personal, easy to prepare and feels good and even 'right' to me plus the theoretical logic of the arguments he presents for why to eat this way really resonate with me.

He reccomends against spirulina, and a bunch of other stuff. I am happy to drop it because it never tasted nice with anything unless hidden by lots of cacao and banana.

Much easier than forcing stuff I don't really enjoy into a smoothie with sweet stuff just so I can get it down my gullet.


This is just my choice for now. I have jumped from diet to diet looking for what fits, what feels right, what works and this is the first time I have felt like I could relax and just enjoy my food and feel it is right for me.
It may be right, it may not be.

Damien,

I really luv what you are saying here! I've gotten away from all kinds of powders and so-called superfoods and do much better with real food. I also recognize to each their own as different things work for different people. AND, very importantly, each one is in a different place in their journey & evolution with diet. With this in mind, I feel the biggest thing is not to go after what we think is good for us to eat but to continually strive for 'incremental' improvement.

I just wanted to add that there are a variety of opinions & options (big surprise!) about what constitutes a raw food diet. For me, simplest works best. I eat primarily fruits and do very well. I dropped the powders, oils, algaes, etc.

Also, almost every food has protein as well as fat and carbs in it. A banana has protein and romaine lettuce has fat. In fact, a banana has very close to the same protein profile (around 6%) as mother's milk. And we all know the superb growth that takes place for a baby drinking breast milk.

I eat juicy fruits or blend some bananas with a little water post workout. I'm satisfied and can still put on some muscle at 55 years old.
I know this fruit thing may be considered a bit of 'heresy' here on this forum due to the sugar consideration. But it took me years to get here and I personally feel it is all the previously poor dietary habits many of us had for years that is the problem & not the sugar/fruit itself.

My 2 cents..... :)

[123 MMA]

Another thought,

I have ready many times not to consume Meat and Fruit together, Rico Connor said this 4 sure, he is close with Mercola. What do people think about this?

[John B]

Another thought,

I have ready many times not to consume Meat and Fruit together, Rico Connor said this 4 sure, he is close with Mercola. What do people think about this?

Different people, different constitutions. If you have no problems with it, then it's no problem. However, if you follow traditional food combining rules then, no, you should not combine meat and fruit in the same meal.

[priyam]

Fruit digests relatively quickly. So combining it with many things, especially something like meat which has a much longer digestive process, will cause it to ferment.


Another thought,

I have ready many times not to consume Meat and Fruit together, Rico Connor said this 4 sure, he is close with Mercola. What do people think about this?

[123 MMA]

Fruit digests relatively quickly. So combining it with many things, especially something like meat which has a much longer digestive process, will cause it to ferment.

Sorry what exactly do you mean it will ferment?

[priyam]

Sorry what exactly do you mean it will ferment?

It will rot.
I find most can get away with eating almost anything when we are young; but eventually optimal food combining can become increasing more judicious to practice.