Who has the best gun disarms?

[HereBeADragon]

I've been looking to expand certain areas of my martial training and one area that really sits high on my list is close quarters gun defense/combat. There is so much out there on the subject and a lot of it seems unrealistic. So I'd love to get some feedback. Who here has engaged in this type of training and who's method would you most recommend? Thanks

[Scott Sonnon]

We are working on a release of our civilian self-protection approach (though our LE deftac, mil combatives, and our exec/dign prot approaches will be closed to professionals from said fields).
Check out Hisardut from Dr Denis Hanover and Kapap from Sgt Avi Nardia.

[BADKARMA]

I've been looking to expand certain areas of my martial training and one area that really sits high on my list is close quarters gun defense/combat. There is so much out there on the subject and a lot of it seems unrealistic. So I'd love to get some feedback. Who here has engaged in this type of training and who's method would you most recommend? Thanks

For any protection training I would highly recommend TFT by Tim Larkin. Very simply a gun is no different than a persons hand. Actually having a gun puts you at a disadvantage vs a person that does not. I have attended a few of Tims classes and you will come away with a new perception of violence and what you need to do.

[HereBeADragon]

We are working on a release of our civilian self-protection approach (though our LE deftac, mil combatives, and our exec/dign prot approaches will be closed to professionals from said fields).
Check out Hisardut from Dr Denis Hanover and Kapap from Sgt Avi Nardia.

Sounds great Scott! If we get the chance I hope you can tell me more about it at the upcoming cert.

Badkarma I am not so sure I would ever categorize a gun as being the same as a hand and equally I would not consider an armed attacker at the disadvantage in such a situation. I can take a punch in the face a bullet is a different prospect.

[hammer_2020]

My two cents.

The trouble with a lot of gun disarming work is that it generally assumes a few stock scenarios and treats the gun as having uniform characteristics across all these scenarios when in fact it is quite different in each.

Two extreme examples to illustrate my point.

Scenario #1: Someone targets you with a scoped weapon from a block away. One hollowpoint round in centre-of-mass later, you're dead. Really nothing you can do about this aside from keep up good tactical movement and not draw attention.


Scenario #2: Someone jams a gun in your ribs in an attempt to force compliance. From here on out, basically any good knife disarm work is immediately applicable and, all things considered, probably safer than working against an actual blade since a gun at that range can only harm you from one vector whereas a knife can harm you from several.


The in-between stuff, of course, is where it gets tricky. In conclusion, I can't honestly say who has the best gun defence work out there. As with any other aspect of the martial arts, it really does seem to boil down to your choice of instructor rather than style. I've seen brilliance and crap come out of the same style. Hope you find yourself a good one!

[BADKARMA]

Brian...just wanted to take a moment to address your thoughts.

A gun, club, knife or what not does not make you any more dangerous. They are just tools of violence. What they do is extend your "reach" so to speak. When one has a tool of violence like above they concentrate on it as a sole tool. they forget about anything else they may do. The object should never be to take a tool but to use the tools we already have and they are far more effective than a gun. Our ultimate tool is our brain. It is always with us and it will defeat any other tool. I want the bad guy at a disadvantage so I want them to have a gun and concentrate on it while I take him out.

When we concentrate on disarming we are shifting our focus on the weapon and not the real threat. That is a fatal move. We need to make efficient violence on the person and every strike must be made with surgical precision and must cause damage with everything we do. Our goal is not to see who can take the gun but to do the most damage. Remember in real violence there are no rules.

[Coach Jones]

I have to jump in here to correct a couple of statements that could be interpreted in such a way as to be monumentally dangerous...

First....


A gun, club, knife or what not does not make you any more dangerous

Really?

Look at it this way...

If an untrained attacker who is simply looking to roll someone for their wallet comes at you with stumbling steps and a hand with some skin on it - there is one level of danger. If the same guy has a live blade that can open you up and leave you bleeding out on the street training or not - that's a whole other level of danger.

Gun is the same as is bat or any other instrument. Anything that maximizes or increases a person's lethality or the damage they can dole out with less effort is, by definition making them more dangerous.

Secondly...




Scenario #2: Someone jams a gun in your ribs in an attempt to force compliance. From here on out, basically any good knife disarm work is immediately applicable and, all things considered, probably safer than working against an actual blade since a gun at that range can only harm you from one vector whereas a knife can harm you from several.

There is no "magic answer" to this problem. There is no absolute. If I jam a gun into your ribs and you try "any old knife disarm" you really better be sure and confident in your technique. That doesn't mean you've watched it on you tube, seen someone else do it, or have gone over it a few times. It means hours, days, weeks and years spent on the most mundane aspect of the technique. It means practicing until you believe you have it mastered and then doing it twice as much - it means being able to pull it off in a dynamic situation where there is actual concern (FEAR) present and against someone who is not being a "good partner" and compliant. In other words unless you're sure you can pull this thing off against a well-trained and dangerous opponent - it aint gonna help you.

I know several people who spend their days practicing drawing their knives, and putting them back. Faster and faster as they have for decades. People who don't have other hobbies or pastimes but for whom training is their primary focus and then some. They are faster, more skilled with their weapon and have no moral dilemma about carving yo up like a Thanksgiving turkey. I also know people who train with guns and gun disarms every day with focused intent as they have for decades. Any old knife disarm is only going to get you shot.


As far as the question goes regarding "who has the best gun disarms?" - the thing is that when it comes to actual, effective gun disarms - there's not a lot different under the sun. There are a few high percentage disarms that a lot of different systems, methods or styles share - you could learn/practice,/study any of those.

If your desire is to actually get good at these skills, then it's going to require a lot of consistent practice after properly learning these skills from someone whose got the experience and the training to teach it.

There are a lot of people who specialize in this type of thing, look around and find one that clicks with you. Be WARY of any of the "quick fix" programs because, quite simply they DO NOT WORK.

The idea that you're going to pick up skills that you'll not only be able to emulate, the attributes to pull them off at all let alone under pressure - in a day or two - is irresponsible and ridiculous. Remember, someone who would attack you with a weapon of any kind is someone to be concerned about. They've already decided to go "against the grain" so they are much more dangerous. Like I say, there are quite a few good instructors out there who can and do teach good gun disarms - do what they say and train hard. If your training seems to be much more theoretical than practical - find a new trainer. Like any training it should progress incrementally and from static to fluid to dynamic.

Hope that helps

[HereBeADragon]

Thanks Brandon you said it far better than I could have. I suppose I am asking not so much who has the best disarms but who has the best method of teaching them effectively. I feel confident in the skills I have already developed but I also know where my art is left wanting and I intend to be a better teacher and martial artists by shoring up those weaknesses.

[Scott Sonnon]

Study videos of actual incidents involving firearms. It de-dojofies your training after only one viewing. And after years of debugging, experimentation and research, you'll discover your training has evolved from a bold hope, to a convincing theory. Neither are certain, but the latter is significantly more sensible.

[Coach Jones]

Sooooo true!

What people sometimes forget is that "traditional systems" didn't, by and large, have to deal with firearms. Swords - yes. Blunt weapons - sure. But not firearms.

With the newer combative systems much of what's taught is, just as Coach said " theory".

Most law enforcement, protection specialists and even military NEVER ONCE have had to disarm a gun wielding assailant with their bare hands.

Beyond that, think on this...

Look at the vast majority of what appear to be "reasonable" in the gun disarm realm. What about the bystanders!! Even if you successfully take the weapon it will most likely go off in the process. If you've successfully pointed the business end away from you it's still pointed somewhere, right.

[HereBeADragon]

Very true guys! You also have to account for the amount of damage that can be done just being to close to the muzzle of a gun when it goes off. I've seen a handgun (it was a colt I believe) blow a hole in a board that was next to the muzzle when it discharded. Imagine the damage done if your hand is to far down on the business end of that gun when you try to disarm it?

Brandon that is also a good point about bystanders and gun disarming. I've always assumed the idea is to try and get the gun aimed at the ground. Of course that is the ideal not the reality.

There is so much about guns and the unarmed response to them that is just not understood, which is why I am trying to understand. I often wonder how many instructors that claim to teach gun disarms/defense have actually ever fired a hand gun or been properly trained in there use.

Just learning how to use one would likely go a long way to learning how to defend yourself from an assault using one. Of course thats just a first step in a much more complicated puzzle. :)

[HereBeADragon]

Scott I found a Hisardut group out of Newport Beach under one Alon Stivi have you heard of him?
http://www.hisardut.com/

[Scott Sonnon]

Brian, yes, legit. I had the honor of teaching Shin Beth and Sayeret Matkal at Dr. Hanover's school in Israel, and know first hand that anyone certified in Hisardut is the real deal.

[HereBeADragon]

Thanks for the feedback Scott. As always your insights and advice are appreciated. Btw have you come to a decision about doing a Flow Grappling clinic at the IC?

[Scott Sonnon]

Brian, there would need to be enough interest. If there is, then we could do a workshop on SAT night.