what's with the dietary nonsense?

[markusrafael]

•No sweets (sugars or substitutes, natural or synthetic)
•No snacks (between meals - eat larger meals, earlier in the day)
•No simples (eat complex rather than simple carbs)
•No seconds (one plateful and no more)
•No stimulants (remove caffeine, nicotine, etc)

First of all, there are two kinds of simple carbs (or sugars); whole foods such as fruit and veggies and then refined foods such as honey, candy, soda, chocolate bars, junk food and other sweeteners. We shouldn't confuse the two. Yes avoid the simple refined carbs as they will wreak havoc on your blood sugar levels. Since fruit sugars are combined with fiber, vitamins, minerals, water and other phytonutrients, blood sugar levels are not elevated. Actually, blood sugar is more of a problem due to having too much fat in the body and not a 'sugar' problem per se. In fact, i have yet to see any scientific evidence indicate that even refined sugar elevates blood sugar if fat levels in body are under 10% of total caloric intake.

Scientific fact #1: every single cell in the human body runs on glucose. Yes that's right. Look it up...

Scientific fact #2: yes glucose is a simple sugar. ALL complex carbs are broken down into simple carbs so why not present the body with what it needs without it having to convert it?

no seconds, no stimulants, no snacks. That I can agree with.



If you consume any of the 5Sʼs after 7PM, then the 30% of the energy needed for “winding down” redirects blood flow or derails your nervous system, which should be expanding blood flow and removing the noise from your nervous system.

The body does not know S's from X's or 7PM from 7AM.
The body breaks down EVERYTHING that is consumed. This is not dependent on the alphabet or the time (although sleep rhythms-activity levels will affect digestion). The body does not know a hot dog from a banana. It's all about what these so called "foods" break down into. Our bodies need certain nutrients to function. If we want to function optimally, we should make sure our nutritional intake is optimal. What exactly is that? Well, since we are biologically classified as anthropoid apes, it's best to look towards our fellow species for some clues since ALL animals on this planet have a species specific diet and we are no exception (why would we be?). Sure, we CAN (by choice) eat mcDonalds or stare at an electronic screen all day but that doesn't mean we were meant to.

The CST systematic view on fitness is revolutionary imo. It's nothing short of mind blowing when the concepts are fully grasped. And i'm still only just beginning to grasp...I encourage us to start looking at nutrition from this same viewpoint.

There are no LEAN proteins.
There are no supplements to make up for deficiencies.
We cannot isolate nutrients and expect our bodies to absorb these nutrients properly. Just as we cannot isolate muscles to develop proper balance in our functional fitness. It just makes zero sense once we actually think about it.

Life is a system.
We are apart of that system.
We are ALSO a system. And our system is made of systems.
A system of systems, if you will. That is the universe in a nutshell.

What do we need nutrition wise?
very simple.

macro nutrients:
Carbohydrates (carbs)
Amino acids (proteins)
Fatty acids (fats)

micro nutrients:
vitamins
minerals

+
water
sunshine
fresh air
exercise
sleep

How much?
ENOUGH.

What's the best way to get these nutrients?
Eat whole, fresh, unprocessed, organic foods.
Cooking is processing.
Putting condiments on food to give it 'flavor' is processing.
Isolated nutrients are non-whole foods => junk foods.

I really suggest we each do some serious meditation on what that word 'whole' means. As far i see it, the departure from living wholistically in thought and action is what has got the human world into such a mess ecologically, spiritually, physically and economically. But i do think we can still go back... It starts with ourselves.

I personally eat a low fat, high carb plant foods diet (like my fellow apes in the wild). I try to keep it as organic and raw (mostly fruit) as my finances permit. I also try to go easy with the oils, salts, and other non essentials. Unlike my fellow apes in the wild, i prefer to not eat insects, reptiles, fish or other mammals just as i don't reduce myself to cannibalism, masturbating in public or raping kin. Unlike my fellow species (and all other species), i have the capability to go beyond my mammalian brain and take advantage of my rational brain. Or so i like to think =D

imho, we don't need animal products anymore than we need heroin. Dietary wise, they don't make any sense if we want to consume optimal nutrition. We are (most of us) very fortunate in this day and age that we can choose what we eat no matter where we are geographically. Every single choice in life is another chance to build our congruence as human beings. I believe that each and everyone has the capacity to see reality for what it is, not what we want it to be.

Of course what we want and need are two different worlds so lets not forget that when we start making justifications regarding our lifestyle habits and choices.

[Coach Clavijo]

My goodness...

Ok, so there is a lot here that I am naturally inclined to jump all over and debate. But I think the bottom line is this: You are coming here with a certain lens/filter/paradigm that is leading you to hold the beliefs you have posted here. That's fine, but you probably shouldn't come to a CST forum calling CST work "nonsense", and then try to reinvent the dietary wheel by giving us your lens. Show some respect in this house.

If you want some input on your thoughts, cool. If you want help in order to better understand Coach Sonnon's or anyone else's dietary recommendations, great, we love to help. If you think your lens can help us improve ours, cool. But CST is the system this forum was made for. If you are looking to come here and attack that system, and declare the superiority of yours, you are in the wrong forum dude.

[Amjmcintosh]

Markus your post is staggeringly arrogant.

Since you're a fan of "serious" meditation, might I suggest you do some "serious" meditation on how to present your views in ways that make people more receptive to them?

[Miykael]

Thanks Markus for enlightening us mere mortals to your illusion of "Moral superiority"

[markusrafael]

no, i am not superior to anyone. I am not reinventing anything. Just observing.
We each have our paradigm. I have mine, you have yours. Mine is forever evolving as i am sure is the "CST" one (at least so it seems).
Reading the dietary program of TACFIT Warrior was a bit disappointing although not surprising considering how retarded the general understandings concerning nutrition are (even among doctors, scientists, nutritionists, etc.)
i respect principles that make sense. I understand that some people see things differently but i also know that how we see things is always based on something. In this case, the information seemed to be based on not much at all (completely unreferenced, illogical, contradictory and lacking of objective/subjective data). I just think there is work to be done there, that's all. Thought i'd point that out. I am sure some will appreciate my critique more than others. Some less. That is okay.
I don't attach our identities to our viewpoints.
Belief? I like to arrive at my viewpoints through logic and evidence. Not belief. That's a cop-out. Intellectual laziness. No thanks.
Arrogance? not really sure what that even means. Ignorance is a better word. Am i ignorant of my own actions on this thread? Perhaps. It happens...
Respect? Is it not the highest form of respect to tell people what one feels they need to hear instead of what they want to hear? To trust people to stand on their own two feet and not the one of some group, creed or cause? Yes, i criticize even (and especially) those i respect. As long as it is done constructively and reasonably. How others react to what i say or do is beyond my control. I try to be as honest as i can. As always, this comes with a price in our dishonest world. Fortunately i have the esteem to afford this price.

don't confuse the message with the messenger. The latter is all i am. Nor do i attach to my views anymore than i feel necessary in order to back them up with what i currently got as a personality; as another human being sharing his voice and concerns with the world.

please feel free to dissect my original post. and also i would appreciate more specific advice on "how to present one's views in ways that make them more receptive to others".
if i am wrong about something, i would like to know what, how and why.
i will happily admit i am wrong if i am thus proved. My hope is that you will do the same concerning your own viewpoints.

Maybe we can even reach a conclusion of sorts and light a few sparks.
Heck, if it leaves me with my leg between my tails, going back to the drawing board, then so be it.

Now who's willing to walk their talk?

[markusrafael]

nonsense |ˈnänˌsens|
noun

1 spoken or written words that have no meaning or make no sense : he was talking absolute nonsense.
• [as exclam. ] used to show strong disagreement : “Nonsense! No one can do that.”
• [as adj. ] denoting verse or other writing intended to be amusing by virtue of its absurd or whimsical language : nonsense poetry.

2 foolish or unacceptable behavior : put a stop to that nonsense, will you?
• something that one disagrees with or disapproves of : the idea that the gut is full of toxins that have to be flushed away is dismissed as nonsense by gastroenterologists.

[Amjmcintosh]

Ah, you're one of those people who "just tells it like it is". This wouldn't be the first time you've received a hostile reaction for "just telling the truth", right?

What is everybody's problem, right, Markus? :confused::confused::confused: Why do people get so cranky when you're just trying to educate them?

[Scott Sonnon]

You're welcome to your opinion, Markus. Questioning is good, but you and we both know that your posts are not innocent question asking. A more respectful tone will be met with significantly more receptive responses to your questions.
You're still a young man. Keep training and studying. Adopt a beginner's mindset. Be respectful of people who have a lot more experience than you. You're comments are very full, and may be in the way of your being able to grow.
If you prefer the high carb, low fat diet. Good luck. Time has proven otherwise in my experience. High protein and complex carbs, no simple carbs has proven to work for the long-haul.
You can find good research, if you google. Start with Gary Taubes and Robb Wolf. And if you have specific questions, feel free to ask. If you disagree, then you're welcome to respectfully choose your own opinion.
Good luck in your training.

[markusrafael]

hey Scott, thanks for the reply and the advice. You are right, my original post was perhaps a bit too propagandish and could be even regarded as condescending considering other people's viewpoints. I apologize for that although i can sincerely say that this was not my intention. As you wrote in your blog, the diet conversations can be taken very personally and very easily when one's choices are being questioned. I understand that. I just like getting to the point and i don't care much for sympathy. I'll take empathy + awareness over sympathy anytime. Yes i am still young. Still learning. I do not however respect anything more than truth itself. Whether that is through other people's experiences, scientific studies, or my own observations and experiments. Saying that, science is always falsifiable. We should not forget that when it comes to the viewpoints of others and especially ourselves.

back to the discussion (if we can call it that yet...), yes i am quite familiar with the paleo diet (wolf, Taubes, & co) and i suspected that's where you got your info. I just don't get it. I don't see the logic of the paleo diet (nor the science). This is either because a) it actually doesn't make sense or b) i am a moron. Or maybe both. Good research? Nope.

Specific questions? Ok here we go...

Question #1: can someone give me the concept of the "paleo" diet in a nutshell? I would just like to make sure we are talking about the same thing. I don't care for the word "paleo" anymore than i like using the word "vegan" for my own dietary choices but in this case, these terms can help us communicate more efficiently.

Scott, you wrote:

If you prefer the high carb, low fat diet. Good luck. Time has proven otherwise in my experience. High protein and complex carbs, no simple carbs has proven to work for the long-haul.

Question #2: Could you please elaborate on that? Thanks.
Question #3: have you experimented with a high carb calorie, low fat, low protein diet? Would be interested in your (and other people's) experiences on this.
Question #4: what essential nutrients can we only get from animal products? I haven't found any yet. So why eat them?

and btw, i have respect for everyone of you. On a bigger scheme, i respect truth above all else. I also want to remain truthful in my respect towards others. Scott, i don't know you, all i know is your work and i must say it is brilliant. I also really enjoy the discussions on these forums. Lots of brilliant and beautiful minds. I certainly have a lot to learn from you guys. I think we all have a lot to learn from each other. Existence is always the greatest teacher. Each of us deserve equal respect. Our actions and thoughts however, don't. Why? because some of them are erroneous and thus misleading.

Don't take authority as the truth, but truth as the authority.

[markusrafael]

for those interested, here is a discussion on the Crossfit boards started over a year ago by a friend of mine: http://board.crossfit.com/showthread.php?t=55537
It seems that this kind of discussion seem to typically follow the same trends so i thought i'd share it (with those more interested in the scientific aspects). I'd still be more than happy to discuss this topic here (which is why i started this thread) and i hope i will get some of my questions answered. I would also happily share with anyone more curious about exploring some new avenues with their own diet. Or at least explore some ideas.
I think CST is superior to crossfit when it comes to fitness but it seems most people are into the paleo way of eating around here as well.
I am wondering why this is so. Why not push the envelope in all areas of health & fitness? I personally won't settle for "if it ain't broke, why fix it" attitude. I want to take things apart and make sure that everything is working optimally. As Scott said, adopt a beginner's mindset. I say, to endlessly begin again.

[rgarling]

Markus,
I agree that there is a lot of dietary nonsense around; however, you have several faulty concepts in your post.

1. "First of all, there are two kinds of simple carbs (or sugars)"
your classification "whole foods" vs "refined food" is arbitrary and not precise

2. "Actually, blood sugar is more of a problem due to having too much fat in the body and not a 'sugar' problem per se."
if you have a normal metabolism, consuming sugar of any type will dramatically increase your insulin level.

3. "ALL complex carbs are broken down into simple carbs so why not present the body with what it needs without it having to convert it?"
your body is a biochemical machine that is designed to process unrefined food items. If you deny it the pleasure, it will not be happy. :)

4. "The body does not know S's from X's or 7PM from 7AM."
actually, it does to a rough approximation... you sleep at night and you don't during the day. you don't eat at night but you do during the day.

5. "There are no LEAN proteins."
You are playing a semantic game.

6. "There are no supplements to make up for deficiencies."
Didn't you just say "The body breaks down EVERYTHING that is consumed. This is not dependent on the alphabet or the time (although sleep rhythms-activity levels will affect digestion). The body does not know a hot dog from a banana. It's all about what these so called "foods" break down into." ? Please point out which of your statements is wrong.

7. "I personally eat a low fat, high carb plant foods diet (like my fellow apes in the wild)."
I have a news flash for you. We are a different species with different nutritional requirements.

8. "imho, we don't need animal products anymore than we need heroin. Dietary wise, they don't make any sense if we want to consume optimal nutrition."
Optimal nutrition sounds nice, but we are far from knowing what that is.

[Scott Sonnon]

Marcus,

If you respect "only the truth" then I can only give you my truth. I didn't get my nutrition information from any source, but offered you sources of people who publish more info on it than I. My approach was earned through experience. Though I may be scientific, I am not a scientist. I made the choice to live as an athlete instead, and as an international champion in 5 different sports in my 40s still walking as an example of my methods, I made the right decision for me.

If you would like to learn how I and my students gained our results, we'd be happy to share that approach with you. If you'd prefer to debate that your approach is better, more moral, more et cetera, then I suggest you find people interested in that kind of time investment. I'm not interested, and am too busy getting improved results.

Good luck in your training.

[markusrafael]

rgarling,


1. "First of all, there are two kinds of simple carbs (or sugars)"
your classification "whole foods" vs "refined food" is arbitrary and not precise

2. "Actually, blood sugar is more of a problem due to having too much fat in the body and not a 'sugar' problem per se."
if you have a normal metabolism, consuming sugar of any type will dramatically increase your insulin level.

3. "ALL complex carbs are broken down into simple carbs so why not present the body with what it needs without it having to convert it?"
your body is a biochemical machine that is designed to process unrefined food items. If you deny it the pleasure, it will not be happy.

4. "The body does not know S's from X's or 7PM from 7AM."
actually, it does to a rough approximation... you sleep at night and you don't during the day. you don't eat at night but you do during the day.

5. "There are no LEAN proteins."
You are playing a semantic game.

6. "There are no supplements to make up for deficiencies."
Didn't you just say "The body breaks down EVERYTHING that is consumed. This is not dependent on the alphabet or the time (although sleep rhythms-activity levels will affect digestion). The body does not know a hot dog from a banana. It's all about what these so called "foods" break down into." ? Please point out which of your statements is wrong.

7. "I personally eat a low fat, high carb plant foods diet (like my fellow apes in the wild)."
I have a news flash for you. We are a different species with different nutritional requirements.

8. "imho, we don't need animal products anymore than we need heroin. Dietary wise, they don't make any sense if we want to consume optimal nutrition."
Optimal nutrition sounds nice, but we are far from knowing what that is.

1. By whole foods i mean foods as they grow in nature without anything removed.
2. No, all sugar is not equal. Nor will it spike insulin levels if sugar is able to travel to cells without getting stuck in the blood which is caused by too much fat in the bloodstream. This in turn causes pancreas to pump out more insulin to help with the problem. Eventually pancreatic function overloads.
3. agreed. Although this is not related to pleasure or 'happiness' which are neurochemical reactions upstairs.
4. yes it can be argued that we are still adapted according to our biological clocks. I've done some research on this but there are many variables at work here.
5. Yes perhaps that is true. However, this doesn't refute what i said.
6. Supplements, powders, pills, refined foods, oils, etc are fragmentary foods. Yes the body breaks down everything that it uses but many nutrients require other nutrients to digest properly e.g. metabolism of fruit sugars is accompanied by the other nutrients in the fruit which is different to eating just white sugar. Same with vitamin d which is needed to utilize calcium (both of which are also heavily affected digestion wise by getting enough sleep).
7. Thanks for the news flash although i never get my knowledge from the news. I prefer science books. And wikipedia... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human
We are different to other apes. But not much. Our nutritional requirements are closer to a bonobo than a junk food loving modern human being that's for sure. Or a primal diet enthusiast... whatever that even means.
8. Optimal nutrition is quite clear imo if we look at the studies and use some common sense (ie. how we would live in our 'natural' habitat). I encourage people to experiment with these ideas and make up your own minds.

Scott, I was hoping especially to learn more about YOUR truth regarding your dietary choices and understand how you arrived at your conclusions. I am not asking for scientific studies to base your knowledge on, just your experience. Perhaps you go into more details into this in some article, forum post or book which I haven't read yet (i only read your blog and TACFIT Warrior diet briefing regarding nutrition aspects of CST). Especially the part about higher protein diet working better for you. Have you experimented with a high carb diet? It seems that protein intake increases automatically if we eat more calories without losing the proper caloric-nutrient ratios. So if we want more protein, just eat more whole foods. However, if you still prefer to not take this discussion further with me, i respect that and will get off your back. I can also email you personally if you prefer. Actually, i was surprised you even commented on this thread. Glad you did though =D

It's not about more or better. It's about doing what is the most efficient way to get where i want to go. Yes there is a moral choice there like with everything. I have tried to leave that out of this discussion but it seems to be always there lurking in between our words. Food is like religion for many... It's easy to read too much into what other people say or ... as in my case, perhaps put too much into what i say. This just proves that food/eating is a big part of our lives. Although i would say it no more/less important than any other of the several factors that make up human health.

I guess i started this thread hoping to bridge the gap between my understandings regarding nutrition and those of the CST crew.
Maybe that won't happen. That's okay, i will still pursue my CST training as expressed in my newbie post. I will also try to stay out of this nutrition discussion on this forum for sake of keeping the peace. I also don't want to get banned. If anybody wants to discuss this topic with me, they can do it on this thread.
Again, i apologize if i initially came across as too forceful. I am also going to change the title of this thread if i still can (although my position regarding it hasn't changed).

[rgarling]

"2. No, all sugar is not equal. Nor will it spike insulin levels if sugar is able to travel to cells without getting stuck in the blood which is caused by too much fat in the bloodstream. This in turn causes pancreas to pump out more insulin to help with the problem. Eventually pancreatic function overloads. "

All sugar is not equal; however, all sugar triggers an insulin release into the blood. Insulin "tells" the target cells (muscles, fat, liver, ...) to store the sugar. Are you thinking about insulin resistance here? Sugar gets "trapped in the blood" if there is no where for it to go. Insulin resistance is more or less a product of sustained overeating.

"Thanks for the news flash although i never get my knowledge from the news. I prefer science books. And wikipedia... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human"
Very funny. Perhaps you could quote the section that says we are the same species as the monkey.

"8. Optimal nutrition is quite clear imo if we look at the studies and use some common sense (ie. how we would live in our 'natural' habitat). I encourage people to experiment with these ideas and make up your own minds."
I'm glad optimal nutrition is clear to you; however, science is not a matter of voting. The matter is FAR from settled.

[markusrafael]

All sugar is not equal; however, all sugar triggers an insulin release into the blood. Insulin "tells" the target cells (muscles, fat, liver, ...) to store the sugar. Are you thinking about insulin resistance here? Sugar gets "trapped in the blood" if there is no where for it to go. Insulin resistance is more or less a product of sustained overeating.
Yes insulin regulates blood sugar levels. But the insulin spike you mentioned earlier does not occur when sugars are combined with fiber, water and the other nutrients (most fruits are high in glycemic index but low in glycemic load) which make up fruit typically. Unless there is too much fat in the blood stream which inhibits sugars from getting to cells (which normal levels of insulin assist in of course). So there is a difference between simple sugars from fruit and refined white sugar. Some paleo dieters seem to not grasp this concept including the aforementioned authors in this thread. They also seem to be totally unaware of the double standards regarding their criticism of everything but themselves. I have not seen one single piece of accepted, and peer reviewed scientific studies to back up the "paleo" diet claims. Nor do i see most people following the diet they claim to follow (a true paleolithic diet). On top of that, the principles and logic of the diet are very unclear to me in the books i read and from people's experiences i've witnessed and conversed about. That's why we read about Robb Wolfe's health problems on his blog and wonder why Gary Taubes has a big fat gut. Either they are full of it, or they don't practice what they preach. It's a diet for people who want think we should live like cavemen (which actually makes no sense because our biological functions go farther back in time than that...) but have no idea what that actually means or what that actually was. I'm not saying you guys do that... it's still a bit unclear what the CST diet really is for me. I was hoping someone could give the answer to that nutshell question i threw earlier.


Perhaps you could quote the section that says we are the same species as the monkey.
We are not the same species as monkeys specifically. What i meant is that we are all primates (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_placental_mammals_in_Order_Primates) and most primates eat a very similar diet although there are slight difference in individual species. Again, the paleo crew seem to think we are "omnivores" and somehow adapted to eat meat. Culturally yes. Biologically no. Although as mentioned earlier typical frugivore diets also contain some animal products but i would say this is more due to survival necessity (when other foods are scarce) rather than choice. It would explain why insects are naturally quite impalatable to human instinct. Our taste buds are adapted to taste sweet (sugar) and our aesthetic senses attracted to fruit. Our anatomies are also clearly designed to run on fruit (as well as pick and open fruit) when comparing with other mammals. Go to a science museum and tell me that human skulls resemble other omnivores (rats, bears, etc). Bizarrely they are often compared there...



I'm glad optimal nutrition is clear to you; however, science is not a matter of voting. The matter is FAR from settled.
You are right, the science is not clear. Nor is it a matter of opinion or voting. I am also not a scientist. Like Scott, just observing and experiencing.

Ultimately, we are all scientists when it comes to nutrition. Our lives are the experiment. Our bodies the labratory. Our health is the result/data. Unfortunately for most people (even scientists), what they eat is more of a religion than a science. Or so it seems.

rgarling, instead of debating about the functions of sugar metabolism, do you mind telling me about your diet? Is it working for you? How do you feel? Do you adhere to the "paleo" diet or is it more of a personalization of it?

[rgarling]

"But the insulin spike you mentioned earlier does not occur when sugars are combined with fiber, water and the other nutrients (most fruits are high in glycemic index but low in glycemic load) which make up fruit typically."
The insulin spike ALWAYS occurs, but it is not as pronounced if the sugar is introduced more slowly (i.e. as in low glycemic index foods)

"we are all primates"
OK. if you are into evolution, we split genetically from our ancestors several hundred thousand years ago. Genetic adaptation happens much faster. Our nutritional needs have become different as a result.

"do you mind telling me about your diet?"
My opinion with regard to diet is (very) roughly: Any 'normal' food is OK as long as you are running a calorie deficit. Calorie deficits achieved through fasting are superior to calorie deficits achieved through exercise. Finally, the body NEEDS to periodically experience a calorie deficit.

[markusrafael]

yes, agreed on the insulin.
evolution is interesting no doubt. I'm not too crazy about it though as it is just a bunch of theories.
i prefer to look at what's happening now. To understand how our body functions and give it what it needs to function properly.
as for your last statement, i don't really understand what you are talking about.
Saying that, i did just fast a few weeks ago for 84 hours.
Did i find it beneficial? no.
Do i recommend it to others? no.
do i regret it? no.
does my body NEED it? no.

[rgarling]

you have an interesting way of arguing, but I think you are trying to do the right thing. Are you trying to fight with me?

Your 84 hour fast was much too long and probably detrimental to your short-term health. Also, it is something you need to do more than once, because it takes time for your body to adapt. In the US, we have generally abused our bodies by excessive consumption, and it takes a while to undo the damage. A fast in the 18 to 24 hour range is probably sufficient if done with adequate frequency. Currently practitioners of this technique use anything from daily ~18 hour fasts to alternate day 24 hour fasts. It is an easy to do version of calorie restriction.

Calorie deficit means you are taking in fewer calories than your BMR + activity level, therefore your body is actively depleting its fat stores. Insulin levels are low, glucagon levels are relatively high. Coming out of this state, your body can deal effectively with nearly any kind of food.

[Scott Sonnon]

"Have you experimented with a high carb diet?"

Yes, for about 10 years. It proved unsuccessful for me in performance and health.

"i was surprised you even commented on this thread."

There are many senior members here who can entertain debates with you, if they are so inclined. My concern is when one of our new, younger members arrives too rudely. Though you didn't intend it, you were. I appreciate that you've modified your tone to a more respectful one. I can see you're already having members be so inclined to discuss with you your questions.

"It's about doing what is the most efficient way to get where i want to go."

There you go.

"Yes there is a moral choice there like with everything."

And on this forum, we give everyone the privilege of expressing their own morality, except when that morality imposes upon others, as did your initial post. Personally, I don't take offense. I've been in too many fights over the decades to be concerned about words. However, for your benefit, you'll find that you'll receive greater response to questions than accusations, to respectful tolerance of those much more experienced than yourself.

I'm pleased to see you already becoming more respectful and look forward to hearing your ongoing development. I'll give you one piece of advice echoed to me through all of the great teachers I've had:



It is better to doubt what you think you know than doubt what you think others know; the former leads to growth, the latter to a life of waste.
It is better to have faith in what you've personally experienced than to await others to corroborate; the former leads to progress, the latter to a life of waiting until others tell you what to believe.
If in 20 years you still feel the same way about an issue, than it's most likely a principle than a theory; the former requires the experience anyway, the latter only requires a life of paralyzed analysis.

Good luck in your training.

[markusrafael]

Ray,
not trying to start fight. Besides, my last karate lesson was about 20 years ago =D i suggest living healthfully so there is no need to fast. Of course this takes time for people who are over weight, to get rid of fat stores. A healthy lifestyle will take care of that eventually. I recommend just eating a diet of fresh fruit & veggies to give the body what it needs to cleans itself and maintain homeostasis. Don't ever stop 'cleansing'. Drink plenty of water. Move your body. Sleep well. Maintain good posture in all activity. Get some sunshine. Educate yourself. See things as they are, not as we want them to be. Stay positive. Keep an open minds. Eat enough calories. Unless i feel someone is addressing my original posts, i am done with this thread. Thnx for stopping by.

[markusrafael]

Good post Scott. Some interesting points there. It's funny though that even though i didn't intend to make any accusations in my op, my recent threads on training with simple questions haven't even be replied to yet this discussion is a few pages long (mostly because of my ramblings i admit). I would love to agree with you and i am sure you are right about people being more receptive when one presents the issue in a more compassionate way. I have made this mistake numerous times in my personal life and online. I am still learning the art of effective communication. It's not my strong area. I know i can seem very cold and ruthless and arrogant for people who don't know me so well although as i tried to express earlier, that is not my intention. I just like to speak clearly and to the point. Not cloud what i say with unnecessary emotion or try to please people. I must admit, it is very hard to discuss dietary issues with people who have different viewpoints (or anything for that matter). I also try not to attach too much importance on words nor do i take offense easily. Thanks for the advice also. Someone recently told me "wait for them, but not with them" which seems to somewhat echo what you say in the first two... although i disagree with the last statement as i think many people often get 'stuck' on ideas & beliefs about the world which happen to be convenient & comfortable to hold on to. imo, principles are not based on how long they are undertaken or how paralyzingly they are thought through. Principles are objective truths that are there waiting to for us to realize them. They require analytical reasoning, critical thinking & intellectual curiosity + experimentation/exploration/experience to be discovered and understood. hmmm... then again, maybe your teachers are right after all =D

I also look forward to my development in CST but thanks for the encouragement. You are an inspiration to me regarding your understandings of human movement. I hope everything is going well.

[Scott Sonnon]

I go where the results take me. When I have a theory, I create a two year goal and track the results. If it doesn't work, I adjust it. If it works, I do it again. If it continues to work, I investigate why. This process has given me the most consistent progress over the past twenty years of athletic growth. Perhaps it will help you as well.

It's all good, Markus. Keep growing.

[markusrafael]

Scott, your kindness and understanding is very admirable. It's also quite serendipitous that you mention that 2 year thing as last night i couldn't fall asleep and i swear i wrote in my journal a 2 year plan (i'll be 30 then). Funny how life works sometimes... As far as my biggest obstacle concerning athletics, i would have to say inconsistency. Then again, that kept me searching and lead me to your world. I relate to many of the things you say on a very deep level. They resonate with me. I am glad you didn't take offense at me calling your dietary recommendations 'nonsense'. In fact, now that i think about it more, using the word 'nonsense' is a quite nonsensical way to start a conversation with a new group of people. Lesson learned. I also admit that my dietary choices have a lot to do with fighting the oppression of fellow animals which i am always a bit weary of mentioning initially. So it is a moral choice first and foremost for me. That is at the core of my philosophies and principles regarding my food choices. Fortunately, I've managed to find the science to back me up although i must admit my personal experience is not sufficient enough (yet) to be an example for others. I'm working on it... so far, so good. But that's a discussion for another time, another thread. PS. Would be great to hear more about your 10 year high carb experience at some point. Maybe i will start a more respectable thread at some point to cultivate a more collective approach to understanding one another.

[Scott Sonnon]

Markus, you have been given the right by a free society and God to practice your morality however you see fit, so long as it doesn't impose upon others. I don't take offense that it isn't my morality. If I did, that would be fascism.

I agree with you that consistency is the most important and hardest skill to discipline. Many dietary approaches work so long as you individualize it, track your bloodwork for deficiencies, and remain consistent.

When you do become consistent, you may find your ideas changed. They did for me. When I finished my first 10 year goal (which was logging 10,000 hours of physical training), I realized looking back through my journals, that my understanding of movement changed because of the observable consistency.

Perhaps you will not find any contradictions in your current beliefs, perhaps you'll find that you hold many principles the same at the end, but for certain, even the beliefs you currently hold, if practiced over time with consistency, they will even change in their refinement and depth of understanding.

It doesn't matter what you practice, so long as you do so healthily, objectively, observably, passionately, and consistently. Keep going.

If you have any specific questions regarding my high carb experience, I'll be happy to address them when I can. I'm very glad to see how quickly you respond to someone treating you with respect even when they hold a different viewpoint. Others tend to respond just as positively and productively.

[Coach Clavijo]

There weren't really questions in this original post that you didn't provide an answer for yourself, so I'm not sure what you want addressed, but I'll provide my opinions as they come up, as I read your post.


First of all, there are two kinds of simple carbs (or sugars) (according to you. others might say there are more); whole foods such as fruit and veggies and then refined foods such as honey, candy, soda, chocolate bars, junk food and other sweeteners. We shouldn't confuse the two.Who's confused? The first principle says to avoid sweets. Both NATURAL and Synthetic. It says what it means. That you believe we should eat simple carbs does not mean that someone else is unaware of the kinds of simple sugars or confused about the effects of their consumption.

Yes avoid the simple refined carbs as they will wreak havoc on your blood sugar levels. Since fruit sugars are combined with fiber, vitamins, minerals, water and other phytonutrients, blood sugar levels are not elevated. Actually, blood sugar is more of a problem due to having too much fat in the body and not a 'sugar' problem per se. In fact, i have yet to see any scientific evidence indicate that even refined sugar elevates blood sugar if fat levels in body are under 10% of total caloric intake. You and rgarling can debate the insulin thing I guess. But the principle doesn't even mention blood sugar. Maybe that's not the reason (or the only one) to avoid sweets.

Scientific fact #1: every single cell in the human body runs on glucose. Yes that's right. Look it up...
Ok....?

Scientific fact #2: yes glucose is a simple sugar. ALL complex carbs are broken down into simple carbs so why not present the body with what it needs without it having to convert it? Because maybe the process of breaking them down is important? Maybe we gain something from it? Maybe the cost of not breaking it down is not worth it. Maybe it's something else.

no seconds, no stimulants, no snacks. That I can agree with.




The body does not know S's from X's If we are still talking 5S principles, I'm pretty sure the body does recognize Sweets and Stimulants.or 7PM from 7AM. Circadian Rhythyms.


The body breaks down EVERYTHING that is consumed.Maybe you are assuming a healthy body, but even then... not true. Fiber, for example. This is not dependent on the alphabet or the time (although sleep rhythms-activity levels will affect digestion). The body does not know a hot dog from a banana. These are very different things. Try telling someone with a banana allergy that the body can't tell the difference.My body knows the difference before I even put them in my mouth. I can smell it. It's all about what these so called "foods" break down into. Our bodies need certain nutrients to function. If we want to function optimally, we should make sure our nutritional intake is optimal. What exactly is that? Well, since we are biologically classified as anthropoid apes, it's best to look towards our fellow species for some clues since ALL animals on this planet have a species specific diet and we are no exception (why would we be?). Sure, we CAN (by choice) eat mcDonalds or stare at an electronic screen all day but that doesn't mean we were meant to.
Clues are helpful, but are only clues, not answers.

The CST systematic view on fitness is revolutionary imo. It's nothing short of mind blowing when the concepts are fully grasped. And i'm still only just beginning to grasp...I encourage us to start looking at nutrition from this same viewpoint.
From which viewpoint should we look? The "revolutionary" one, or the "just beginning to grasp" one. If you can admit that you haven't fully grasped CST, consider that maybe you haven't grasped this part of it, and maybe it isn't that we aren't looking at it from a certain viewpoint.

There are no LEAN proteins. First, you might want to define LEAN. And...why is this even mentioned?
There are no supplements to make up for deficiencies. People successfully use supplements for this purpose all the time.
We cannot isolate nutrients and expect our bodies to absorb these nutrients properly.Not sure what you mean by properly. If you mean in a way that's useful, then yes, we can. Our bodies do make use of isolated nutrients. I'd guess that you and I feel similarly, in that it is "better" to get them from whole foods, but that doesn't mean the body can't use isolates.
Just as we cannot isolate muscles to develop proper balance in our functional fitness. It just makes zero sense once we actually think about it. True isolation doesn't really happen, but that doesn't mean that focusing on a specific area, or trying to isolate something can't play a role in improving "functional" fitness. I'd say the dietary situation can be similar.

Life is a system.
We are apart of that system.
We are ALSO a system. And our system is made of systems.
A system of systems, if you will. That is the universe in a nutshell.
You might enjoy a wikipedia search of the term Holon.

What do we need nutrition wise?
very simple.

macro nutrients:
Carbohydrates (carbs)
Amino acids (proteins)
Fatty acids (fats)
Well, if by nutrition you mean external nourishment, we don't really NEED carbs.

micro nutrients:
vitamins
minerals

+
water
sunshine
fresh air
exercise
sleep

How much?
ENOUGH.

What's the best way to get these nutrients?
Eat whole, fresh, unprocessed, organic foods. Depending on the situation, processing might be better. Many people have had success with juicing in order to get a lot of nutrients in quickly. Many people have had success with blending and cooking. And many people believe that the process of cooking had a lot to do with our development as a species.
Cooking is processing.
Putting condiments on food to give it 'flavor' is processing. Ok? So? Chewing is also processing...
Isolated nutrients are non-whole foods => junk foods. Isolated nutrients are non-whole foods. Agree. Junk foods? Disagree.

I really suggest we each do some serious meditation on what that word 'whole' means. As far i see it, the departure from living wholistically in thought and action is what has got the human world into such a mess ecologically, spiritually, physically and economically. But i do think we can still go back... It starts with ourselves. The departure from holistic living? Is there some magical time I'm unaware of where ALL of mankind was living this way?

I personally eat a low fat, high carb plant foods diet (like my fellow apes in the wild). I try to keep it as organic and raw (mostly fruit) as my finances permit. I also try to go easy with the oils, salts, and other non essentials. Unlike my fellow apes in the wild, i prefer to not eat insects, reptiles, fish or other mammals just as i don't reduce myself to cannibalism, masturbating in public or raping kin Reduce myself to....interesting.. Unlike my fellow species (and all other species) Which species do you not consider "fellow"?, i have the capability to go beyond my mammalian brain and take advantage of my rational brain. Or so i like to think =D

imho, we don't need animal products anymore than we need heroin. Need for what purpose? To survive? No. To thrive? It's debatable, but I'd still say no, we don't NEED them.Dietary wise, they don't make any sense if we want to consume optimal nutritionMany would include meat in their optimal diet plan. I'd bet you don't need me to tell you why.. We are (most of us) very fortunate in this day and age that we can choose what we eat no matter where we are geographically. Every single choice in life is another chance to build our congruence as human beings. I believe that each and everyone has the capacity to see reality for what it is, not what we want it to be. I disagree. I've never heard of any human that was skilled with ultraviolet and infrasound perception. Reality is big, and we only get a slice. We can increase our slice, and that slice might seem really big to us, but to encompass the totality of reality? I'm not convinced.

[markusrafael]

hey Cesar, thanks for the feedback.
i'm curious about your thoughts on the questions i posted on this (http://www.rmaxinternational.com/forum/showthread.php?22979-what-s-with-the-dietary-nonsense&p=178577&viewfull=1#post178577) post as well. (especially question #1).

will get back to your above post a little later but now i gotta do my morning Intu-Flow® (attempting intermediate for first time today which i am very excited about!)

my goal is to establish a better understanding of the actual differences in our diets + those that we have in common.
i have confidence that this will be a more fertile ground to develop understanding on this topic between the differing viewpoints of the parties involved. Besides, i doubt the "markus is the king and everyone should do as he says" will do me any favors in the long run...

[JAD]

True dialogue requires common ground. Sometimes the more common ground that is shared, the more heated the discussion (though in confrontation with an absence of common ground, violence ensues). It can be useful when confronting perspectives different from your own to focus not on where you diverge from the other person, but where you stand together.

Thanks to Markus, Scott, and the others for this thread. To my mind, there is a great deal of common ground here. Markus, I think you will find that you share with many in this forum an interest in movement that goes far beyond the attainment of particular aesthetic or performance goals, and is not so much about what to be interested in as HOW to be interested. Movement is life, and the pursuit of mastery in movement is part of living- systems in systems, etc. Mastery, however, is more a journey than a destination. It requires the cultivation of polar tendencies. On the one hand, it requires passionate consistency, commitment, and perhaps even faith, in the face of many opposing forces. On the other hand, it requires the ability to dispassionately critique and hold to the sunlight one’s sincerely and deeply held beliefs against the weight of experience and evidence. Otherwise, it turns in on itself, and learning ceases. Said Jean-Francois Revel, “Ideology functions as a machine to destroy information, even at the price of making assertions in clear contradiction of the evidence.” I would add to this that the line between evidence and action is rarely if ever straight. There is always interpretation, and more often than not arguments over evidence are actually arguments over interpretation. Best to be as honest as possible about your method of interpretation, rather than hiding it through appeal to common sense or self-evidence.

Many people have little interest in pursuing either the faith or the skepticism that the journey of mastery requires. As you said, perhaps you wait for them but not with them, for only you can decide how to balance you r energies. All things in moderation includes being moderate in moderation. I’ve become better at deciding when and where to be immoderate after leaving my 20s and entering my 30s, so it appears you may be well ahead of me in that respect! I believe that discipline, properly applied, creates rather than restricts freedom. Over the past few years, as I have become more deliberate about movement with a capital “M,” I’ve been surprised at how much resistance I’ve encountered from some of my family and friends. Though the discussion seems to initially be about certain particulars (is grain good or not, does fat make you fat, etc.), it does not go very far because they really haven’t dedicated serious thought to the issue. What appears to be a disagreement about the evidence is actually a disagreement about worldviews. It’s not about whether grain is good or bad, but whether it is worthwhile to be mindful of nutrition in the first place. Isn’t it all just obvious, and isn’t a concern for nutrition just being finicky or indulgent? At the same time, these people steadily accumulate maladies that are due in no small part to their own actions, and pursue solutions to those maladies that often exacerbate the problem or create new ones.

What to do? I suggest compassion and patience, a willingness to help when and if the opportunity arises, and a constant focus on keeping your own house in order. This requires both confidence and humility (these are complementary, not opposite), empathy, and discipline

Writing about Revel, a famous French journalist, Clive James says, “The attraction of journalism is that one runs no lasting risks. But that’s just what encourages the sloven. I prefer to be encouraged by a man like Revel, who has always written even the most fleeting piece as if he might need to defend it on the day of judgment- and for any craftsman proud of his work, of course, the day of judgment is always today.” The journey of mastery need not be walked alone at all times. You will find fellow craftspeople in this forum with whom you share a great deal of common ground. It sounds like that is where you are headed. Safe travels!

James

[markusrafael]

Firstly,
briliant post james if i may say so!
especially these parts:

arguments over evidence are actually arguments over interpretation.
and...

What appears to be a disagreement about the evidence is actually a disagreement about worldviews.
Very true my friend and brilliantly expressed.

Secondly,
by taking the advice of much wiser & more experienced people than myself, i have decided to abandon everything i think i know about nutrition (regarding science and logical arguments) and like Scott said, adopt a beginners attitude. I am now a blank slate. I will still continue practicing what i know intuitively works for me since the way i eat is very simple and clean + it makes me feel great! But i will continue to be open, learn and above all, seek first to understand --> then be understood. My participation in this discussion is now over (regarding the debating of opposing dietary paths). Sorry for the mess i started but i am glad i did because it got me to this point. And this process also taught me an invaluable lesson on human interaction. I completely underestimated the people who are apart of this community. It's quite a unique place. People seem to have their heads screwed on unusually well around here. Now that i think of it, this surely has a lot to do with the free flow movements that are practiced in CST. Perhaps this somehow transcends into our day-to-day, moment-to-moment attitudes and behavior. All in all, i am mightily impressed & inspired. There seems to be a new layer upon layer underneath previous layers awaiting to be discovered (and which won't be until the previous layer is realized). The forum here is no exception. I have definitely come to the right place.

I also violated my own integrity as a human being by projecting values & prejudices on other people and fooling myself into thinking i am somehow intellectually superior (or being unconscious and in denial of the fact that i was indeed doing that). I am all for fighting against oppression of fellow animals but sometimes i forget about myself =D

there's a great saying which i came across lately:
don't seek the truth - just drop your opinions.

see you around the forums folks.
m.

PS. what can you guys/gals tell me about the RMAX nutrition book by Kathryn Woodall? Is that the official nutrition guide for the CSTrainees? just noticed a few threads on it in the forums...

[rgarling]

JAD: "... people steadily accumulate maladies that are due in no small part to their own actions, and pursue solutions to those maladies that often exacerbate the problem or create new ones. "

QFT -- excellent!

Markus: "...i am now a blank slate. i will still continue practicing what i know intuitively works for me since the way i eat is very simple and clean. but i will continue to learn and above all, seek first to understand."
Beautiful! Good luck on your journey, my friend.

[Scott Sonnon]

Markus, keep an open mind, but not so open that your brain falls out. It's good to ask question, remain skeptical, test to see if it fits your lifestyle and worldview, and refine what works over time. As you improve, we all do.

[markusrafael]

As you improve, we all do.
That's going on my apartment wall. thnx