The clunk and gravel

[Niko]

In reading through the forum two topics stood out for me. One, silence or quiessence of the body as it moves and two, how if one area of the body is afflicted in some way, other areas should be looked at as the possible cause. This has left me in a pickle :oops: !

All my joints make a "gravelly" type sound when articulated and they clunk. I am also prone to tendon inflamation(ankles, knees, shoulders, wrists blah blah blah)

My questions are: how do I silence the clunk and gravel? and, Where do I start to find the root cause of the problem.

Thanks in advance.

[Scott Sonnon]

Nick,

The amazing characteristic about Warrior Wellness is that general joint mobility covering all joints head-to-toe may help you resolve local issues. It may help you learn to discern the differences in sounds, sensations and tension, and assess how to resolve issues throughout your body. Begin working just 20 minutes every morning and within three weeks you may see dramatic results!

You will learn the self-assessment process by continuing to read and interact here at CST Forums. Just stay present, share your discoveries in a dedicated diary at the PERSONAL TRAINING LOGS section, and ask questions whenever you have a question. No question is insignificant!

[bob_stra]

A quicky because I'm on the hop
Did you know that different sounds, from different places, mean different things and thus have different causes?
Try a google search on the following terms - crepitus, cavitation, rale
Here's the first page that popped up for me
http://tinyurl.com/q4a6
http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/8462/TMJ03.HTM


Also, this site is quite nifty, if a bit technical - http://www.ortho-u.net/med.htm

One final PS: Did you know you can get crepatus in your EYEBALL? Eewww - squeaky eyeballs :o

[bob_stra]

All my joints make a "gravelly" type sound when articulated and they clunk. I am also prone to tendon inflamation(ankles, knees, shoulders, wrists blah blah blah)

My questions are: how do I silence the clunk and gravel? and, Where do I start to find the root cause of the problem.



Hiya

Back from a long day of hitting the books - some of which hit me back ;-)

Anyhow, while I was procrasti...uh...on "study break", I gave your question some further though.

If you'll indulge me in some mental masturbation (wait...that sounds...not right) -

Anyhow....

Supposing I was actually right in my assumption on the other thread. That one of the physical causes of crepatus is poorly dissipated energy by tendons and ligaments (one of *many* possible causes - see previous links). Why, I asked myself, would such a thing happen.

"Self, why would such things happen?"

Current Injury
Previous unhealed Injury
Splinting (natural or due to restrictive environment ie: tight clothes)
Changes in the composition of the tendon / ligament
Changes in the composition of the articular cartilage
Aging (misuse and disuse)
Inefficient motor pattern

In any case, for whatever reason, mismanaged movement. Now, this being the great fanwank of the ages, I asked myself "Self, why would the body do that, huh?"

Rainman like, the answer came back - lack of information ("definitely, definitely, there are *53* matches, definitely")

By information, I mean anything that decreases or organizes uncertainty.
The more information is available, the more options one has. See, that's Ashby's Law of Requisite variety. Adequate choice depends on adequate info.

Now, the body has natural mechanisms for gaining information from its surrounds. Vestibules, eyesight, skin receptors. But I figured, if someone had shot you in the ear with an arrow, or plucked out your eyeball, you'd pretty much know about it. Probably wouldn't be posting on here. (and PS: If you think I'm kidding, close your eyes, spin around 5 times and try to write "The Cow Jumped mightily over the moon while the dish gaily ran away with the spoon." See - you need dem senses)

What other mechanisms could be rusty?

How's abt all those nifty kinesthetic ones? Postural sway, twitching, special senses. Idiomotor movement.

But if these "special senses" become inhibited for some reason, then how would the body know what to move, when? It wouldn't! Case in point - folks tend to drown easiest in cold water, because the water acts as an anesthetic. Thus, the nervous system can't get information on the position of the limbs. No info, no swim.

Similarly, prolonged periods of inactivity would have an anesthetic effect on the proprioceptors embedded in the tendons / ligs. Co-ordination would be poor. In other words.

Dull receptors = less info.
Less info = less choice.
Less choice = mismanaged movement.
Mismanaged movement = less than optimal force distribution
Poor force distribution = noise (clicking).

Surely, reversing this would have the opposite effect? Through R.O.M.? Which give the parallel benefits of lubricating the joint and speeding any healing process that needs be?

I hear maybe the brain prioritizes novel information. Maybe there's something in that ;-)

Yeah, anyway, I'm leaving it there. You can draw your own conclusions as to how your various bits interact and where to go from here.

By the way...

Any and ALL* of this could be wrong. We all have little biases, little methods for trying to make sense of the world. I'm just a guy on the net trying to avoid doing work. Scope it out, experiment and get informed.

/ best Jewish mother voice ON/
Also, would it kill you to see a doctor? Oy!
/ best Jewish mother voice OFF/

[Niko]

Thank you very much Bob for the replies and whoa that was quite a bit to digest! :shock:

This is an embarassing admission but even Warrior Wellness hurts but I while do whatever is necessary to get my hinges squeak free.

Bob, I will definitely check out the sites you posted but the squeeky eyeball thing is down right creepy. :roll:

Oh, and before I forget, I have visited doctors and Physical Therapists. The doc's told me basically I have to live with the pain and the therapy was soothing(nothing like some traction after a massage ahhhhh!) but once it was over I was right back to square one. But thanks for the impression though. :)

[bob_stra]

>Thank you very much Bob for the replies and whoa that was quite a bit >to digest!

You're welcome. I waffle too much.

>This is an embarassing admission but even Warrior Wellness hurts but I >while do whatever is necessary to get my hinges squeak free.

Do less. Literally. Visualise a lot. It works.

>Bob, I will definitely check out the sites you posted but the squeeky
>eyeball thing is down right creepy.

As you can see, I'm making the most of my multi thousand dollar educational investment ;-) Next, I'll slap on some clown shoes, juggle some kettlebells while reciting the amino acids in alpahbetical order ;-)

>Oh, and before I forget, I have visited doctors and Physical Therapists.
>The doc's told me basically I have to live with the pain and the therapy >was soothing(nothing like some traction after a massage ahhhhh!)

Chronic pain....complicated....very complicated.

Here's a book that puts it in some perspective (how / why) while keeping it in laymans terms

http://tinyurl.com/q64c

Somewhat related (or at least, worth reading given the situation)

http://www.barrettdorko.com/desk.htm
http://danke.com/Orthodoc/

and how could I not include -
http://www.feldenkrais.com/feldenwhat.html

I'll shut up now. It's scott's forum and I'm sure he has more good stuff to say.

[Scott Sonnon]

Bob, I see an article coming from you on the above! It would be excellent for CST Mag. (Except for optical crepitus... Yikes! :shock: )

Niko, Bob advised:
Do less. Literally. Visualise a lot. It works. Absolutely. Don't try and emulate the movement you see on video, but rather use it as a mental blueprint for exploring your own ROM slowly and smoothly.

[Niko]

Coach,
Thanks for the advice. I think my mental blue print is what got me into this mess to begin with...always trying to push past barriers, and accepting pain as part of the process. I was still somehwat utilizing that mind set with Warrior Wellness and there's just no sense in that. I will heed your's and Bob's advice. Thank you.

Speaking of Bob...you make consider your post as waffling but some folks like waffles. :wink: I do really appreciate the advice Bob and have much to read, learn and apply.

With great appreciation,

[bob_stra]

Bob, I see an article coming from you on the above! It would be excellent for CST Mag. (Except for optical crepitus... Yikes! :shock: )


Sure thing - I can do that. But it will have to wait abt 6 weeks while I polish off these last few exams.

Soon...very soon...the world will have to fear DR bob_stra.

*muwhaaaaa*

Dr Frankenstein's got nuthin' on me :lol:

[rbibbs]

Nick, I'm just a recovering inactive old guy using Coach's techniques and finding them very effective. I wanted to give you a specific thing to focus on, relaxation. Relaxation is "the other half" of motion, the half we take for granted, and the first part of the process we lose.

We send commands to flex in the direction we want to go, and trust our reflex neurology to accomodate with relaxation, but after some discomfort or inactive time, the reflex neurology is the first part we lose accuracy in, like Bob was saying, "information comma lack thereof" and we also tend to substitute overall tension for the missing information, to maintain joint integrity and so we don't spill and drop stuff a lot. Tension in the muscles that are supposed to be relaxing is what makes my shoulders grumble out loud.

So concentrate on that, as the thing to visualize, in a motion, the relaxation and extension/stretching of the opposing muscles.

Rick

[Niko]

Thanks Rick and there's much truth in your words. I find even as I utilize the ROM exercises I feel myself gearing up, generating that tension. I don't know if this makes any sense but I contract the muscles forcefully, hols and then release. I repeat this a couple of times and feel the sensations of the untensed muscles. Creating this contrast is the only way I know how to go about feeling that sense of relaxation. I am not at the point where I can consciously induce relaxation. But am excited for the far reaching benefits of such a skill beyond the scope of daily physical practice.