Antioxidants (?)

[rbibbs]

Kathleen, do you feel there is any value in oral 'antioxidants' like glutathione, grapeseed, CoQ10?

I'm borderline bipolar (not meeting the clinical definition) and have taken these 3 supplements for 3 years. When I ran out of glutathione, I felt depressed, and when I re-stocked the feeling went away immediately. I'd say this was a placebo-observation except for the fact that I was not in any way anticipating an 'antioxidant' to have that effect. (This observation could still be coincidental, and doesn't rise above anecdotal in any case.)

I don't know 'for a fact' that oral glutathione is bioavailable in any form. Assuming it serves some purpose, and a person were sensitive to free radicals in tissue or serum, might the person feel inhibited from activity (depressed) in the presence of free radicals? (Also assuming the metabolism 'knows' that more activity will produce more free radicals.)

Anyhow, that's just my case and I have no other evidence. But overall, is there any substance to the free radical/antioxidant supplementation line of reasoning?

[dfobare]

Kathleen, do you feel there is any value in oral 'antioxidants' like glutathione, grapeseed, CoQ10?

I don't know 'for a fact' that oral glutathione is bioavailable in any form.

To my knowledge there are 2 scientifically proven oral GSH supplements. They are Immunocal and HMP Science's Ultrathione line. The former is actually a GSH precursor which leads to increased bodily production of GSH. The latter is a patented treatment of GSH which slightly modifies the GSH molecule so that it can slip into the bloodstream without being destroyed.

Both formulations have been the subject of successful FDA Phase I studies documenting the dosage/response relationship.

I have been taking Ultrathione for almost 18 months now. I wish I had started taking it 3 years ago when I first learned of GSH. I don't know if it is kosher to post links here, so I'll refrain until informed otherwise.

[rbibbs]

Thanks for that info; links are generally OK, but that was enough to google on.

Do you feel a pronounced effect from Ultrathione, and what?

[dfobare]

Some effects are easy to describe, others not so easy.

The clearest effect has been the reduction in colds. Our son(only child, so far) will turn 2 on July 30. If you are a parent, you know firsthand that babies get sick, and often. As soon as Keller was born, it seemed that I caught everything he caught. From mid-November 2002 thru mid-February 2003 I was sick literally every single day.

Guess when I received my first order of Ultrathione? Yup, mid-February 2003. My "cold" cleared up within days. Since then I have had fewer colds than either my wife or my son, and the ones I have had have been shorter in duration and less severe.

Other effects are more difficult to describe, in part because of their subjectivity. Immediate post-exercise recovery is faster. I experience a mental boost about 90 mins-2 hours after taking it. There are other changes I've felt, but they are too subjective to go into.

The science behind glutatione itself is rock solid. HMP Science's owner, Dr Harry Demopoulos did much of the research. GSH has acquired a bad name because there have been many quack supplements promoted over the years that just don't get the job done. Only Immunocal and Ultrathione are proven with Phase I FDA studies. Immunocal is even listed in the PDR.

[rbibbs]

Thanks mate... good anecdotal evidence. I take around 20 supplements, some are isolated proteins, some are 'immune-activators' like beta glucan and colostrum. I used to have the standard 2-3 10-day colds a year, and since I started the activators I've only been sick once for more than 24 hours... even went through the entire flu cycle, from onset to 'sore hair' to waking up sweating and the virus was gone, in one day.

From the objective (non-sponsored) research, it looks like raising serum/tissue glutathione levels orally is almost impossible, unless one is dietarily deficient in the raw materials going in. Immunocal and Ultrathione seem to present evidence they've solved that... unfortunately they're both above my budget at the present time, so I'll have to look more closely when I'm more solvent.

[Brett Jacques]

Several years ago I was involved in the study of the absorption of oral glutathione supplements. There were some surprising finds, regardless, we found that glutathione, reduced glutathione (GSH) is absorbed quite nicely from the gut. The real question is there cellular penetration which is where you want your GSH and the answer is maybe since there is some ability for gamma glutamyl transferase to bring some glutathione into the cells. Are GSH supplements worth the money? I don't know but I have has poor to outstanding clinical success with a few select GSH products none of which have been mentioned in this thread but were studied in Europe.

[dfobare]

The prices for Ultrathione and Immunocal are pretty steep. Dempolous' patent for his GSH treatment runs out in a few years, and I'd guess that there will be price reductions then.

[rbibbs]

Thanks Dfo' and Brett.

I get the feeling there are potential health goldmines among the supplements. Getting solid evidence on which do what, and which are being sold strictly on the basis of the imagination of some ad copywriter, is another issue. Since they can seldom be patented (other than the isolation process), there isn't the $$$s to do the biochemistry necessary to 'prove' that they survive digestion, enter the bloodstream, enter the cells. Antioxidants as a class tend to be expensive, and I think this is a function of demand rather than the actual cost of production.

I'd be very interested in a safe and effective myostatin inhibitor. Some are offered for sale, but (see "ad copywriter" above) no research supports their effectiveness.

[dfobare]

Since they can seldom be patented (other than the isolation process), there isn't the $$$s to do the biochemistry necessary to 'prove' that they survive digestion, enter the bloodstream, enter the cells.

Again, I have to stress that both Ultrathione and Immunocal have proven dosage/response relationships thanks to FDA Phase I studies. I prefer Ultrathione for a number of reasons, not the least of which is that I don't want to reward the Immunocal people for their cheesy MLM marketing operation. But it ain't getting listed in the PDR for nothing.

I'm not sure why the Immunocal people did their FDA Phase I study, but I do know about Ultrathione. Dr Demopolous' HMP Science company has a brother -- a small drug company. Specific Ultrathione formulations are in Phase III studies as a treatment for macular degeneration and AIDS.

[rbibbs]

FDA phase III becomes pretty conclusive. They've been fooled before though, aspartame sailed right through it, so did thalidomide.

[dfobare]

FDA phase III becomes pretty conclusive.

Well, for the purposes discussed here, I think Phase I is just fine. The controversy over GSH has been whether various oral formulations(whether of glutathione itself or precursors) actually make it into the bloodsteam and increase intracellular levels of GSH.

Oral gluathione's applicability as a treatment for a specific ailment is what the Phase III study is for. But suppose Ultrathione doesn't do well in the Phase III studies. That does not necessarily invalidate its use in pursuit of other objectives. And we aren't going to get Phase III studies anytime soon looking at whether GSH supplementation prevents colds anytime soon.

For now, you'll just have to rely on the copious research available on GSH and the Phase I studies proving the efficacy of Immunocal and Ultrathione. For me that is a far smaller hurdle to jump than the cost -- $50+/month.

A warning: if you do decide to give Ultrathione a try, be aware that HMP's order fufillment dep't can(not always) be unreliable. Get a promise of a specific ship date when you order, and if the order doesn't arrive in a timely manner call them.

Is this the right forum to discuss fish oil?

[rbibbs]

Ahh then, my bad, aspartame wasn't subject to phase III.

Relatively rare for a supplement to go through FDA at all, they're not required to, those guys must have known they were on to something.

Sure, you can talk about fish oil here.

[James Boelter]

Facinating stuff. Thanks for bringing this up, Rick. As a borderline Depressive/ADD type, I am always interested in factors that contribute to mental clarity.

And for those of you who can't stand (or afford) fish ol , I would like to point you to sardines (in Olive Oil, SILD, or mustard sauce) as a cheap, convenient way to get your EFAs. The nice thing about mustard sauce is that there is a lot a vinegar in it, and vinegar is just the ticket for covering up the taste and odor of sardines (which some people, including me, find problematic).

[rbibbs]

James, have you looked into Piracetam or DMAE? They are said to be 'brain supplements', widely used in Europe.

A 'health-nut' friend told me Evening Primrose Oil does the same thing as fish oil. I think both are available in gel-caps, where you don't have to taste them.

[Scotty D.]

David Wolfe, author of 'Eating for Beauty', often mentions that eating coconut butter with flax, hemp, or pumpkin seed (or their oils) can, in many people, double the rate at which the omega-3 fatty acids in those seeds can be converted into DHA, the major long-chain omega-3 fatty acid found in the brain. This conversion rate, without coconut butter, is an average of 3%, though it is dependant upon the individual. Some folks are unable to convert vegetable omega-3 to DHA at all.

I am very happy with the DHA supplement Omega-Zen, an extract from golden marine algae (Though if you're looking for something not fishy, this one still smells/tastes really fishy). Now I am far more direct in going from task to task, without those 'Oh, what's next' moments of hesitation. I also find that during relaxation time, my mind is naturally less busy; my quiet moments can truly be 'quiet'.

Though I see it written so often as a brain food, does anyone here know if DHA is also found throughout other parts of the nervous system? I read this quote, "Concentrated in regions that require a high degree of electrical activity, DHA is important for signal transmission in the brain, eye and nervous systems.", and so wondered if DHA could also benefit the efficiency of proprioception, i.e. information making it's way from receptors in the joints to the spine, brain stem, and brain. Thoughts?