Karambit Book - structuring the unstructurable ?

Read Steve Terani's book this weekend. There is a section on the 7 positions all attacks begin and end from. I had to put the book down and read that again. What? There are endless positions of attack and fighting is a fluid situation. I think I may be at the point where I can't get with a martial art based on forms. All the Kali and escrima books look this way to me. Am I missing something? FYI - I always felt this way about formal karate too, which is why I was basically doing mostly sparring from the start and went quickly to thai boxing, boxing, and BJJ- no forms. I am borrowing some RMA tapes this week to look at -what I read on ROSS
site makes perfect sense to me, waiting for Dave to start the Philly group.
Bill

[sin_goodfellow]

Bill,

Concerning the Karambit itself, there is a rather scathing review of that particular weapon in the new Cold Steel catalog. It talks about how the Karambit is being widely hailed these days but is in reality not that effective a weapon as things go.

Here's the link to the online version:

http://lib1.store.vip.sc5.yahoo.com/lib/csstoreonline/Karambit.pdf

As regards to endless forms... Every day I grow more dis-enchanted with the idea of learning how to properly defend and attack by learning rote movements that never change. As you said, in combat everything is fluid and every second a million outcomes can be achieved.

I believe that the family of martial philosophy that ROSS is a part of has the right idea, namely that each of us must discover our own "style" and then learn how to properly apply it. During my Buddhist retreat I talked with a Tai-Chi/Baugwa(probably mis-spelled this)teacher and he talked about the need for good "kung-fu", which in this particular case was your ability to apply your knowledge to the situation at hand. It was refreshing to hear someone who has steeped their lives in learning traditional martial arts talk about the fact that there is no "best" art, only good and bad "kung-fu".

May your Kung-Fu be strong,
Jesse Wells

[dave_rusin]

Bill,

One of the greatest frustrations I had during my study of BJJ, since the training was almost entirely comprised of the study of techniques, was what to do when the techniques did not work, which seemed far too often. There was no study of the physiological principles that underly a technique. What is a technique, after all, but a specific example of mechanical advantage applied to a set of circumstances for the bodily manipulation of an opponent.

The beauty of systems like ROSS is that they deliberately internalize the ability to improvise an appropriate response based upon the unique circumstances of the encounter. There is no pre-determined response pattern to any given threat. Responses to threats are based on natural human movement patterns that form an overall gross motoric program. In the stress of conflict fine motor function becomes difficult and at times impossible, therefore the importance of a GROSS motoric program.

If you are interested, let me know, I can send you an article I recently received that touches on this topic.

ROSS is all about finding and cultivating YOUR style. There are many excellent resources available for ROSS Training. If your interests lie in the realm of knife, stick, rifle H2H, I'd suggest looking into the ROSS Bayonet: Biomechanical Blade Fighting video series ( http://www.rmax.tv/bayonet.html ). Therein you will not learn techniques, but how to efficiently and effectively improvise. Of course, this being the standard of practice for ROSS, you will also not find a collection of techniques in any of the other ROSS videos. I own almost all of them and have yet to be disappointed. On the contrary every ROSS video I've seen has far surpassed any expectation.

On another note, I was asked to be involved with the Philly group, but not sure if you are referring to me when you say Dave in your post. I told Matt Sparke I'd like for my knee to completely heal before jumping back into training as I'd like to. I've had a few setbacks and this has only prolonged my recovery. If I'd just let the damn thing heal, I could get back to training full steam ahead. So that's what I've been doing.

Anyhoo, whether or not you were referring to me, I'm sure we will meet soon at a Philly-ROSS session...

:)

[msparke]

The Philly group will start the first full week in Nov. with Matt and Randel.

Dave and Jesse,

Thanks for the great replies. Dave, I was referring to you, Matt had emailed me and mentioned you were going to be involved. I have seen all the Arthrokenetics and IOUF tapes - which were as you say way beyond "and then he'll do this -so you do that" The H2H ROSS tapes are now officially placed on my to buy list - but the 25lb CB is first. Hope to meet you soon.

Bill

[dave_rusin]

Bill, I look forward to meeting you as well! And to resuming training with my comrades from the Philadelphia and Princeton areas.

Matt, good luck kicking off the Philly group. I'll be joining you guys soon.

:D

[rbibbs]

Enlightening string Bill, Jesse, Dave! It's what makes this forum and this tribe synergistic and evolutionary. I hope it gets a lot of hits. It's bound to have occurred to others that virtually every rote technique comes pre-packaged with a defense/counteroffense that nullifies it, leaving the combatants almost where they started, who's stronger or who lasts longer or who is most innately-talented, wins. That being the case, why study formal martial arts at all?

These are just brain-twitches, from my sketchy knowledge and understanding. Formal martial arts evolved, did they not, in relative isolation, amongst early religious practitioners having forsaken material weapons, for their own 'tribal' defense. The monks grew up and grew old within the confines of their monastery and the surrounding countryside, and practiced their defense forms all their lives. When their forms were actually 'used', their opponents were seeing them for the first time, and they all worked pretty much whiz-bang. But in the decades preceding that use, the monks practiced them hourly, in parallel, older ones bringing younger ones up to speed, refining and burning the forms with militant precision into their minds.

Wouldn't the root of an effective attack always be "that which your opponent doesn't see coming"? Assuming that, then the forms and rote techniques we all learned at the same time on the same mat are not going to be effective in terms of "winning" against our classmates, or likely against anyone else who has been to the same or similar class.

We've taken those forms and that practice out of their formative context, and created competitive sports out of them. And we try to learn them FAST. Hey we're Americans, once we've put something on our mastercards, we expect results BEFORE we actually have to pay for them. :wink:

That grossly distorts the intent of their founders in terms of development and application. Mastery of formal martial arts isn't even what we're looking for, we don't have that kind of time today. But that's what's sold at the stripmall down the block, so off we go, coming home scratching our heads "why doesn't my stuff work, it works for that big guy who just started last month?".

As its founders have pointed out, ROSS isn't a "martial art". It isn't taught or practiced in rote or in isolation. It has structured drills upon which students are encouraged to improvise, as development techniques NOT fighting techniques. (How can I put this without using the term "paradigm", since I'm not even sure what a "digm" is? Two nickels?) ROSS is a development methodology for primate instincts, that gives us graspable handles by which to implement that which we already know but just don't know it yet. Um, clear? It will be after you've done it for about a week.

Rick "hey skinny, shouldn't you be lifting weights?" Bibbs

[Sharp Phil]

I posted a simple seventeen angle stick/knife drill (http://www.themartialist.com/0903/seventeen.htm) once and was immediately regaled with comments like, "Seventeen angles? That's way too many!" At the same time, you could distill all slashes and thrusts with a knife into three basic categories -- overhand, backhand, and thust -- considering everything else, from snap cuts to low strikes to high strikes, as simply variations on one of those themes. I've always seen the purpose of forms and of drills, regardless of how simple or complex they are, as a means of training the body to move -- not necessarily in complex patterns, but simply in a certain way. It's possible to get too fixated on angles and pattern drills, just as it's possible to get too fixated on a specific tool (the kerambit, for example).

I think Lynn Thompson's article does highlight some potential weaknesses with the Kerambit, particularly the extended position, but its credibility is blunted somewhat by the polemic style Lynn typically employs when he writes these kinds of things. As for Steve Tarani's book, I have it but have not gone through it at length yet. As a writer I found myself thinking it could have used another edit, but that is no comment on Mr. Tarani's knowledge or ability.

[sin_goodfellow]

Hey we're Americans, once we've put something on our mastercards, we expect results BEFORE we actually have to pay for them. :wink:

Bibbs


HAHAHAHAHAAHAH, ROLFMAO!!!!! :D

[Coach Jones]

I wouldn't care if the guy had a Karambit or a pointy stick, i'd just as soon not get poked with either one.

-Brandon Jones, CST

Brandon and Guys,

Jason Bourne does a nice job on that guy in the movie with a Bic. Great discission.

I just watched Russian Knife Fighting and Strike lent to me by a friend. I know Systema does not = ROSS, but they obviously had the same parents. Although Vlad is showing "techniques" they really are just applications of of the same idea, the circular redirection, the passing application of pain, disarm....ROSS, as I understand it, takes the idea a step further, by starting with an understanding of the principles and building the movement from there. It strikes me that this is a method that can't run dry. Hopefully I will be able to get to the training.

Matt please email at foxfitnass@hotmail.com.

Bill

Blame it on phonics - that's foxfitness@hotmail.com

[dave_rusin]

Rick,

You wrote...

"ROSS is a development methodology for primate instincts, that gives us graspable handles by which to implement that which we already know but just don't know it yet."

Beautiful, bro, beautiful!!

:wink:

Bill, what did you think of VV's Strike video?? I saw it advertised and it looks interesting. Can you share some thoughts??

Just finished watching it. Very cool. The wave punching is similar to what Coach Sonnon demos in Maximology. Most of the tape deals with absorbing punches. Again the concepts are nothing new if you have Coach Sonnons tapes -but watching these guys line up to get hit is certainly fun.

The more mystical stuff is there. The healing punch, taking the punch away etc... you can go for that or not and still get something out of watching it.

I'd go for Coach's tapes first - more "theory" behind the applications. But a great tape if you can't get to a seminar.

Bill

[dave_rusin]

Bill,
Thanks for the report.

I already own Shock-Ability and Fisticuffs and love 'em... But I've found it quite interesting to view Systema videos through a ROSS perspective. I believe as a ROSS practitioner you can see things that others not exposed to ROSS may not see.

Anyhoo, thanks for sharing your thoughts on that.

[ratlee]

I was going to try to stay out of this...however, I just lack that certain self-restraint...so

Bill said

"I just watched Russian Knife Fighting and Strike lent to me by a friend. I know Systema does not = ROSS, but they obviously had the same parents. Although Vlad is showing "techniques" they really are just applications of of the same idea, the circular redirection, the passing application of pain, disarm....ROSS, as I understand it, takes the idea a step further, by starting with an understanding of the principles and building the movement from there. It strikes me that this is a method that can't run dry. Hopefully I will be able to get to the training. "

Lew says...yes, exactly so... and that is what i was taught that the Filipino Martial Arts Movements are... examples of how to accomplish an outcome..your description of Vlads movement could be used to describe a Modern Arnis answer to a knife attack (there are other answers if the question, or attack is stated differently). The angles of attack, etc., are just a starting point, they are like the examples, or problems, in a math book... they show you how you might solve a problem and you take it from there. You should very quickly move to a format where you are fed attacks from random, with your partner switching up, countering your counter...etc. You will find that different energies (strenght, committment) will call out different answers).... or at least that is the way that i was taught..., and how i teach myself...once you have the flow, the "technique creates itself"... Lew