meditation and proprioception

Hi, I was wondering if their have been any studies done on the effects of meditation on proprioception.

I ask this as I have myself found a significant enhancement in my mind body awareness since stepping up my meditation.

It would also make sense as the Eastern traditions make great use of meditation both spiritually and in a physical enhancement sense.

These Eastern martial artists, specifically the taichi and bagua practicioners, display a strong sixth sense, as many people like to call it.

I learned from the bodyflow book that this sixth sense is actually proprioception and although we do not know all the details in how it works we know enough to be able to put it in a box.

Does proprioception have any influence on the physical feeling of electrical charge beneath the skin which most call the flow of qi?

I feel this effect very strongly in my hands when in deep meditation.

I been thinking about how meditation could enhance proprioception after meditating when it actually inhibits it during meditation.

Could it be it is as simple as giving the proprioception system a break which gives it time to recharge itself? Thats a really crude way of putting it know but I don't know the technical lingo that goes along with this subject.

Has their been any research into proprioception and learning ability?

It sounds strange but I think I use it to memorise music. When I listen to music in my minds speaker I feel it all over my body especially my sternum area. It seems as if when I listen to music through my ears my body starts mini vibration contractions throughout my body and then when I play it back it activates these same areas.

Very strange observation, probably spacey nonsense.

Do any of you think it has an effect on visualisation/imagination? It would seem so to me especially when visualising yourself beating an opponent as you have to feel your ghost.

These are just some rambling ?s and observations that haven't been thought through properley, so sorry if they are a bit stupid. I think maybe i'm getting proprioception mixed up with the neuro-muscular system.

Thanks!

[rbibbs]

There's some real good sparks in there Edward. I think as aware as you are you'll sort it out, which ones lead somewhere.

If meditation does indeed 'rest' the proprioceptive network so that it can 'recharge'... that sounds like a great idea. The entire nervous system operates on contrasts and you've given it a big one. Pursue that over several months and let us know what you discover.

[bob_stra]

*If* I have the time thru the week, I will *try* and dig up some stuff for you. But for now let me say (an unqualified) 'yes' to almost all of your questions.

Here are a few good search engines for you to try in the meantime-

Note: Proprioception is perhaps not the best term for what your after but it might turn up some fun stuff anyways.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?db=PubMed
http://www.cochrane.org/
http://www.pedro.fhs.usyd.edu.au/index.html
http://www-rohan.sdsu.edu/dept/coachsci/mastable.htm

Also, I'd have a look at a few good psych databases if I were you.

Ditto a key word search on "synesthesia" re: music.
Eg -
http://web.mit.edu/synesthesia/www/synesthesia.html

Finally - from what folks tell me, I think this book might be useful too

http://tinyurl.com/3wzdz

Wow thanks guys!!

I'll deffinitely keep you updated with any discoveries I make.

I forgot to say a thought I had while in deep meditation. I couldn't feel anything and it was allmost like I was floating in space, and then I thought along with me not taking in any external stimuli, it feels as if i'm not giving any out, like I don't exist.

That baffled me, I asked myself if proprioception governs your sense of out put as well as input, and if it did wouldn't it like you say Rick, act on contrasts.

So maybe when you get into flow state you trick your sub-conscious into thinking your not their in combat and thus can't be hurt and that is what gives you the relaxation of mind.

Bob, thanks a lot for the links man, if you could find anything if you have time that would be great, but don't put yourself out.

I'll check out those search engines now and that book, brilliant!!

Bob, that book looks really good, I have a similar one called quantum healing which I have just started by Deepak Chopra.

I read in new scientist a few months back how they were just discovering the role of electro-magnetism inside the body and how it influences cells to heal themselves.

Fascinating stuff.

Cheers.

Just had another thought similar to previous ones.

If the feeling of chi movement is related proprioceotion then wouldn't it be fair to say that chi or part of chi is the bio-electrical-magnetic energy used to relay information throughout the body to the mind and so forth.

Wouldn't it be fair to say it would have specific paths of energy transfer it communicates with, and wouldn't it make sense for these channells to be what they in the East call chi meridians.

Wouldn't proprioception also contain information about our inner worlds, specifically the position of our inner organs in relation to each other.

Therefore I think that organs are linked via the proprioception system to all other areas of the body via these meridians and this I think is how mir breathing works, by cleaning all the cobwebs from the lungs to limbs channel, which being a major and vast channel would allow the better functioning of the rest of the system.

Phew, just got that idea right now so it is a bit of a ramble but I think maybe i'm onto something.

Thoughts?

Cheers

Sorry about but I just got another spontaneous brainwave.

Perhaps the way people can heal each other just using their own body is by radiating this proprioceptive energy to the other persons proprioceptive system which in turn allows their body to have more energy throughout all of the other systems as well and use the excess for healing.

Those of you who are religious should maybe consider the relationship between spirit and chi and proprioceptive energy which in turn leads to thought of the power of prayer.

That last paragraph is a bit shaky but maybe some of you could manipulate in some form or another.

Cheers.

[Scott Sonnon]

Ed,

Proprioceptors are simply receptors, not 'projectors.' There's no such thing as "proprioceptive energy." It's a sense, not a power.

I see, but how does the information picked up by the receptors get relayed to the parts of the brain associated with it?

Does it transfer to the nervous system and so what we feel is just nerves firing.

I realise it's one of the things that is hard to prove scientifically so it's gonna be even harder for someone like me to work out, but it is so fascinating.

Do you have any book recomendations for info on the various human bodys systems including proprioceptive and nueromuscular systems?

Cheers!!

I just found some web pages about it and they all say the proprioception receptors SEND signals to the nervous system.

I think what I was trying to describe above is the nature of these signals that the receptors send.

I'll read some more and maybe something will click.

Peace

[Arluk]

Check out

Visceral Manipulation by Jean-Pierre & Mercier, Pierre Barrl

Anatomy Trains by Thomas W. Myers

The Body of Life by Thomas Hanna

Jobe's Body by Deane Juhan.


I feel that these books could help you to better see answers to your quandries.

[Joseph David]

Edward,

Proproception is a sense. It is the communication we have between our internal environment and external. The term proproceptive feedback loop describes the communication process of the mechanoreceptors. These sensors are continually recieving information and sending information. They are the means that we are able to adjust our internal responses to adapt to our evolving environment.

Restoring neuromuscular coordination, sophisticating neuromuscular coordination, and refining neuromuscular coordination are based on the principal of proprioceptive enhancement. The clearer our nervous system is to static, the restistance of reactive patterns, the more effective our nervous is to cope with a changing environment.

Hope this helps.

[bob_stra]

I just found some web pages about it and they all say the proprioception receptors SEND signals to the nervous system.

I think what I was trying to describe above is the nature of these signals that the receptors send.

I'll read some more and maybe something will click.

Peace

The nature of nerve transmission is the nature of nerve transmission. While there are some peculiarities in the different types of signal (pain Vs pressure Vs temp etc), it's really much of a muchness. A complex, fascinating much of a muchness to be sure, but still....a nerve is a nerve is nerve. Mostly.

Can I make a suggestion? If you're really interested in this, try looking at the overall picture first, then the specific components. Just google for "nervous system" and see what turns up. Maybe a little something on "feedback loops" after that. *Then* you can go on to the specific mechanism of proprioception and the more esoteric stuff (geometry of transmission, neural "language", mental representation of movement, effects of perception etc).

It's good fun :-)

Thanks for the suggestions.

Yep I need to get an overall picture of how the whole nervous system functions before going of on one like I did yesterday lol.

I read to much about chi and stuff and come up with these out their idea's based on false assumptions.

Thanks all of you for not calling me an idiot and bearing with me, I know I can be testing for the patience sometimes.

I guess where I went wrong was thinking that receptors produce electricity when stimulated and transmit it to the nervous system for communication. And it seemed to me that if that were true then maybe you could reverse the flow from the nervous system to the receptors and through the conductors of the skin.

Thanks again for the suggestions.

[bob_stra]

There's no need to call each other names. Besides, you intuited some good ideas and that's more valuable than book smarts.

FWIW - There have been a few interesting discussion abt Chi/qi etc over at r.m.a. over the years. Scientific thinking, practical aspects, westernized models etc. A recent one that I found enjoyable (low on crap, high on content IMHO) -

http://tinyurl.com/6pjsu

Great thanks for the link, low on crap and high on content is what i'm looking for.

Have you read some of the stuff trancsendentational (sp) meditation, it's the biggest load of give me money bullshit around.

? for Coach Sonnon- what is your take on chi/prana? do you think it is something as yet undiscovered or something the west knows about or it just doesn't exist?

I'd be very ineterested to hear your thoughts on the matter, you have a good head for these kinds of things.

Cheers!!

[Scott Sonnon]

Re: Chi/Prana/etc. - different cultural contextual definitions for life force. The West doesn't have any problem comprehending that live things are "alive" (have 'life force' which 'dead' things do not.)

Western martial arts now speak in terms of "aliveness." Draw your own conclusions where their evolution heads (eventually). Every culture reinvents reflections of perennial wisdom - and that's a good thing.

Prana makes complete sense within the Hindi context; chi within Taoist and Buddhist contexts. Western science is very young in comparison to these other cultural contexts, but at the cutting-edge of technology, the distinctions blur... (and Western science continues to learn, grow and evolve.)

I understand you are seeking, but what you seek cannot be found by looking, because it's everywhere. Focus on deepening and expanding your daily personal practice. Study the Three Dimensional Performance Pyramid. Everything else sorts itself out.

Thanks Coach, that is actually nearly exactly what a book I bought today says, "It is the animating force".

I think I know exactly what you mean when you say what I am seeking is everywhere. I can't explain what I think it means, it's just a feeling I have had recently as things have started to get a lot better for me.

Thanks for the advice Coach, i'm very much into practise at the moment and I really should do my log online as well.

Cheers!!

[JasonE]

Dr. Jwang Wing-Ming, in one of his many texts on various styles of Chinese martial arts (CMA), shows a photograph of where "chi" is ultimately generated in the body. It's a pile of someone's guts, laid out more-or-less the way they are arranged in the body.

It's a very "visceral" image, and his explanation of the chi-generation process is stimulating. I did not purchase this text, but was struck by his boldness. It's definitely controversial, and I am too ignorant of CMA to make any educated judgement as to how it jibes with other notions of Chi in CMA.