Food Consumption/Diet Thoughts on different Diet Methods

[pookaboy]

WARNING! Somewhat long post ahead!

Hey all, I have just read all of the different sections here in this "Healthy Nutrition and Natural Weight Loss" section. It got me thinking regarding different diets and I wanted to panel the experts on some of these different Food Consumption/Diet methods that I have come across and tried and hear from them on others types out there. Here are the ones I am talking about and I will give the personal results from them: Atkins Diet, NHE, Eat Right for Your Type, and Warrior Diet/Animalbolics.

Atkins Diet: This particular diet I started at the behest of my wife who wanted me to go on some kind of diet to lose my Papi-love-handles. She had bitten into the hype and bought there pills and other crap to measure my ketones (As if I don't get enough piss-tests in the military, now I was doing it home!!!). I started the first two-weeks of no carbs and all fat and protein diet. My body went into the unnatural state of "ketosis" and promptly informed me that it didn't like this diet at all by giving me the mother of all migraines to the level that I had to be taken to the emergency room after being incapacitated by the migraine. The doctor had to break out the horse needle and industrial strength painkiller to help me rid myself of that particular monkey on my back (in my head?). Diet results: lost pounds and sanity too. Come to find out, however, that there are certain people that don't do well on that diet. Glad to learn and know that I was one of those. Ketosis is not my friend.

NHE (Natural Hormonal Enhancement)http://www.extique.com: I did this one after finding out about it on www.bodybuilding.com in one of their forums. I bought and read this book and tried it out. I didn't really notice any difference. Diet Result: Par for the course. The book was a great read and the factual evidence he presents exceptionally well-documented as any good lawyer does, but it didn't work too well on my part. I think I lost a couple of pounds on it but not enough to count, may have been the dump I took before I weighed myself, pardon the wry humor.

Eat Right For Your Typehttp://www.dadamo.com/: This "method" of eating has probably been one of the more promising diets/eating methods I have been one. I actually lost about 5 pounds while on this diet. According to Dr. D'Adamo's blood type diet, I was following the Type A diet for me which had me as an agriculture archetype that was more vegetarian with meat in moderation and not much of the types of meat I liked in the "highly beneficial" categroy for my type. However, my brother, Type O, was able to eat all the meat he wanted within reason because his archetype was more of the hunter type. Go figure. Back to nature and my plowshare I guess. Excellent reading and very well supported. I kind of follow it now, however, there are still some foods I enjoy that fall in his "avoid" category. Bottom-line for now, still around my 200 lbs weight.

Warrior Diethttp://www.warriordiet.com also known as the Animalbolicshttp://www.ironmag.com/im_animalbolics.html: This is the diet that I have just started a couple of days ago. I bought Ori Hofmekler's book "Warrior Diet" and have read it cover to cover. I am doing it right now to see how the results will be. Steve Maxwell wrote an intro to this book and so did his evilness Pavel in his true terse russian way. I am giving myself a month to see how this diet works. So far, the diet's premise, in its simplest form, is this:
Eat raw fruits and vegetables during the day; all food groups at night
Drink plenty of clean, pure water throughout the day
Basically, in the evening, eat what you please within reason following his evening eating rules:
Always start with subtle tasting foods and move to the more aggressive foods
Include as many tastes, textures, colors, and aromas as possible in your main meal
Stop eating when you feel much more thirsty than hungry
That's the gist of it. It is currently what I am following. Diet Results: We'll see.

Those are the ones that I have had some play with or am doing now. What I am curious about is who has followed these or other diets and what their results were/are. I am curious for myself, however, I am also sure that other lurkers/readers are curious too since a lot of people are coming to KB/CBs/body weight exercises as alternatives to the bullcrap gymrat stuff that looks good but just doesn't fall in the functional category. I, myself, crossed over from the barbell/dumbbell paradigm after realizing a gut-feeling I had for the longest-timethat I wasn't really getting any "functional" strength out of it, and, aside from squats, wasn't really burning as many calories as I wanted too. By the way, I just love my clubbells and kettlebells! However, I kinda wish they came w/ a carrying case, because my clubbell handles get beat up on occasion by my fatboy kettlebells rolling around in my car. I've resorted to wrapping my CBs in a towel to protect them from Pavel's legacies.
Thanks,
Tom Loyd

[Doug Szolek]

Tom,
just to satisfy my curiosity, what is your general build? Be as specific as you like.

As for the diets listed, well if you've read through all that's printed on this forum then you've seen what works for me. I've tried the Atkin's, and Warrior diets, had good results on both but found them both laking (for different reasons) in the field of overall energy, and recovery ability.

I am interested to see how the Warrior diet works for you, so please keep us posted on your results. I'd also like to welcome you to post your training log on the personal training log forum to give a full picture of how your diet and exercise, work together.

Hey Tom,

Well your one well read diet researcher! If your game for reading you should take a look at Greg Ellis' site ultimatedietsecrets.com. That said I always get jumpy when clients are doing what I call "the diet tour".

The warrior diet is great at the start. Alot of us did it, the general experience was that for the hard training athlete it had to be modified to include at least some small protien/fat feedings during the day. What I did take from is much lighter eating during the day.

It sounds like you had the Atkins bad trip. Too bad you weren't already here. Some can dive right in - others need to ease in.

If you like Ori's approach, stick with it. 2 cautions - go easy on the gorge at night. Make no mistake calories count. Have a few little protien/fat shots thru the day to keep your insulin flat .

Give us some info on your stats.

Very low carb, never hungry, much swinging of KBs=lean warrior.

Bill Fox

Of course that was swinging of Clubbells - are those 2.5 Kbs rolling around in your car?

[aaron]

I leaned out a bit while using the warrior diet, but I attribute it more to changing to a healthier eating style. Only problem was when night came around it was hard to become satisfied and binging occured. Not necessarily on bad foods, but too many calories none the less. Be careful of that.

[S Ward]

I have personally tried Atkins and NHE. I lost fat weight with Atkins but could not stick with the program. NHE I had great results losing approximately 15 pounds of fat and gaining 5 pounds of lean body weight over a twelve week period. I came off NHE because I met my goal. I have stayed away from the Type diet and the Warrior diet. I'm just not convinced by the argument for the Type diet. Mel Siff (I believe) wrote a good critical review of this diet for dolfzine. According to the Warrior diet it is the diet that the Roman solider ate. Well I could find no historical evidence that Roman soliders ate this way. I did find evidence that the plump Roman aristocracy ate this way. What I did find suggested that when marching Roman soliders ate all day what they could find in the field. When encamped they ate stews made from plants and animals found locally. The only staple in the soliders diet was bread. In one campaign in Gaul the Roman army almost revolted because they were not receiving their daily bread rations. So, since the author doesn't really provide any support for this diet I left it alone. That all said I don't believe a one diet fits many anymore. I think individuals should adjust their caloric content and macro nutrient profiles until they hit on what works for their bodies. For me a Zone like diet seems to keep me trim and I can eat in a comfortable fashion.

On a related note I read a news post yesterday on Yahoo where researchers had compared an Atkins like diet to a high carb diet. They had three groups - Atkins, high carb, and Atkins with more calories. The Atkins group lost the most weigth but the interesting finding was that the Atkins with more calories almost lost the same amount as the high carb group bring into question the notion of 'a calorie is a calorie'.

[pookaboy]

Coach Szolek,


Tom,
just to satisfy my curiosity, what is your general build? Be as specific as you like.

My general build is more towards the mesomorphic side of the house. I have always been a little on the husky side. I am 5'9" tall and currently weigh about 200 lbs with the typical scale fluctuations of a pound or two. I am lot more upper-body than lower body when it comes to strength because of doing a lot of pushups as a kid, due to a drill-sergeant like dad, and in the Army, hence now being in the Air Force and still doing pushups.


I am interested to see how the Warrior diet works for you, so please keep us posted on your results. I'd also like to welcome you to post your training log on the personal training log forum to give a full picture of how your diet and exercise, work together.

So far the Warrior diet is going ok, I've only been on it for a couple of days and will let it run for about a month or so to see how it works. I still have some doubts as to how good it will work though. I have completely given up milk and milk products (except for an ice cream once in a great while). That alone has provided some great benefits, especially in the sinus category and breathing some much better. I now use SILK in place of it. I will keep you posted on how this diet works for me for now.
I will also start posting my personal training log once I get Coach Sonnon's Clubbells Video tape. I thought I could use the books :shock: , but have learned from his BASAC and Mills videos that I ought to buy his video and have a look-see at it first to get everything down a little better and move from GPP to SPP and beyond! :shock: Once I get it, I will tell you what I am doing. Just a heads up though, in order to add some spice, I mix up my kettlebells and clubbells.
Thanks Coach!
Tom

[Doug Szolek]

Thanks for the reply Tom.

I was especially interested where you mentioned Dairy products as I've been consuming around two gallons of whole milk every week lately. It is probably something that I'll have to change down the road (even though I really love milk (cow or goat)) because I know exactly what sinus issues you're talking about. Perhaps when I'm all done with my current HULKING OUT training cycle, I'll be able to lower my protien and fat intake as much as switching to Silk would. (btw, I've gone non-dairy in the past, and Silk is definately my soymilk of choice)

Thanks again for the report, and be sure to keep us posted,

[SteveB]

I've used the Warrior Diet for months now, and like it enormously. Like any eating plan, you have to modify it to your own needs. Primary points for me:

1) Undereat during the day, overeat at night
2) No processed carbs during the day, carbs at night.
3) At dinner: start with green leafy vegetables, move to proteins, finish with carbs. When you feel more thirsty than hungry, stop, drink a glass of water. If you're hungry again in a while, start over again with vegetables.
##
The low-level hunger during the day can be nicely combated with a piece of fruit, or some protein.

I start the day with a non-sugary fruit smoothy, and will have a protein shake right after a heavy workout, if there is no meal in sight.

[bob_stra]

I was on the Warrior Diet for a while. Really, it should be called the "Poor students' / cheap bastard diet", cause that's pretty much how we all eat. Itty bitty little meals, then gorge on pizza at 3am ;-)

I figure that the weight loss affects of th Warrior diet are actually due to caloric restrictions. After all, who can eat 4000 calories in one sitting? Not too many. So even if you stuff yourself at the end of the day, it still turns out to be less than what you'd normally have.

I'm on the paleo diet now. Similar to the Warrior diet, but with a handy, built in mnemonic -

If you can kill it with a stick, you can eat it.

(*jabs a bag of potato chips with stick. Urgh - Grok might hunter. RRRRGGHHH*)

http://www.panix.com/~paleodiet/

[Travis McHugh]

I am 5'8". About 3 years ago I went to Weight Watchers to: 1. support my wife and 2. not be 200 pounds . I wound up losing 30 pounds, getting to 170. Sounds great but I was hungry all the time and was killing myself to stay within the "points".

A few years passed and I went back to eating the normal, crappy American diet. I stepped on the scale one day to realize I'd jumped back up between 185 and 190. (I noticed my pants were getting tight, too.).

I recently have been on a higher protein, lower carb diet, excluding white flour and sugar, avoiding Aspertame and Sacharine. I try to use Stevia or Splenda instead. I cut out milk for Silk and only use that in a protein shake - water in the shake made it undrinkable.

This morning I was 174. I have more energy, sleep better and do not crash after lunch. I have been having some carb cravings this week, but nothing overwhleming. When I get major cravings, I give in a little to avoid a binge later on.

Now I have to retool my workouts...

[sin_goodfellow]

Bob & fellow Knuckledraggers,

I looked over the Paleo diet and one of the first things that I saw was some anti-milk articles. Attending HSU, California I encounter a lot of vegans, vegetarians and whatnot. I have heard a lot of them speak of the ills of milk. I am curious what the tribe's opinion of milk is...

Now, myself, I have consumed milk forever. Whenever I do not consume milk for awhile, I definitely notice the lack of it. I do not develop any withdrawal symptoms that I can tell, but it certainly feels good to drink it again. Soy milk tastes odd to me. The thought of all the microscopic bits of rodent that get sucked up by the harvesters and dropped into the soy is certainly a turn-off as well. I know that dairy cows do not have the greatest life, but I buy organic milk and the companies claim to take good care of their cows.

I've never noticed any specific bloating or pains as described by the lactose intolerant. To me, milk is an awesome tasting source of protein and something that contributes to cheese and ice-cream :D

I believe my heavily northern-european roots on both sides of my family probably have something to do with my heavy consumption of milk and enjoyment thereof. Comments?

[Doug Szolek]

HULK like milk, sorry didn't want that to come off as an Amerca's Dairy Farmers commercial but...

Yea, I love my milk, whole organic variety. With as much as I've been training lately my appetite has skyrocketed (in a healthy way). This translates to me drinking 2 - 3 gallons of milk a week.

I have been debating lately to drink only skim milk after a certain point in the day, but such a decision needs much deliberation.

Here are some fun milk related quotes from Joseph Alter's, The Wrestler's Body, Identity and Ideology in North India


Wrestlers are distinguished not so much by what they eat as how much they eat. They are reputed to drink buckets of milk, eat kilograms of almonds, and devour large quantities of ghi per day.


In every sense, milk and ghi are the two most important ingredients in a wrestler's diet. Although he cannot live on ghi and milk alone, a wrestler constructs his diet around them.


Wrestlers tend to increase the volume of consumption in proportion to the number of exercises they do in their vyayam regimen. There is no simple equation for this but wrestlers who do 1,500 dands {Hindu Pushups} and 3,000 bethaks {Hindu Squats} consume about half a liter of ghi and two liters of milk per day.


Wrestlers realize that eating milk, ghi, and almonds makes them big and strong. However, the relationship between diet and size is not one of simple cause and effect. Therefore, when a wrestler talks about being able to eat large volumes of ghi, milk, and almonds it is primarily because his is big and strong and not because he seeks to become big and strong.

I borrowed this book from Coach Sonnon's library and I've nearly memorized the chapter, Discipline of the Body. For those of you who don't know (as I didn't) ghi is clarified butter, or ghee as I've found it marketed. I've been using it as a secret ingredient in my protein shakes with positive results though it is quite costly.

My reason for sharing this is that India has produced some of the most powerful and enduring wrestlers ever and I feel that by learning what they believe to be most important to their training and diet will probably have positive results for me. After all, these are the guys that would swing 15-80 kilogram Gada's and Jori's as a foundation of there strength training :wink: .

[Shaf]

Doug, you can clarify your own butter. Pretty common procedure, I think most cook books have the procedure. Might end up cheaper. Probably a quick google search will turn up how to do it. OK: Here's a quick description from allrecipes.com:


Clarified butter is different from traditional butter in that clarified butter can be cooked with at a higher temperature without burning the way traditional butter would. Clarified butter avoids burning at higher temperatures because the clarifying process removes the easily burnable milk from the butter. Because the milk solids have been removed, clarified butter does not have the same rich flavor that traditional butter does. For many recipes, however, it is more necessary to have the ability to cook at a higher temperature than to yield the rich flavor that traditional butter would.

1. To make 1 cup of clarified butter you'll need 1 1/4 cup of butter. You will lose approximately 25% of the original butter's total volume when clarifying.

2. Place butter in a saucepan over a very low heat. Let the butter melt slowly, do not stir the butter while it is melting.

3. As the butter melts, it will separate into 3 layers. The top layer is a thin layer of foam, the middle layer contains the bulk of the liquid (weighing in at about 80% of the total), and the bottom layer is where the water and most of the milk solids are. This natural separation is what makes clarifying possible.

4. Skim the foam off the surface of the butter, discard the foam. Be cautious to avoid dipping the ladle into the milk fat while skimming, as the milk fat should remain intact.

5. At this point, there are two possible methods for removing the milk fat from the water on the bottom of the pan. The method we chose to illustrate is to decant the milk fat from the water. Carefully and slowly pour the milk fat off of the top into another container. You can see the water underneath the clear yellow milk fat. If you notice any of the water slipping into the milk fat, you may need to re-decant your new batch of clarified butter. If there is any water in the clarified butter, and you try adding it to a hot pan, the water will immediately boil when it hits the pan causing the hot clarified butter to splatter out of the pan.

An alternate method for separating the fat from the water is to use a ladle and skim the fat up and out of the pan, making sure not to let any of the water get into the ladle.

Pour your newly clarified butter to a separate container, and discard the water and small amount of remaining milk fat.

6. If the clarified butter sits for a moment, you may notice some more foam has floated to the top. Using a small device such as a spoon, you can remove this last bit of foam. Use clarified butter to make Indian Naan or Mediterranean Ghraybeh Cookies.


Milk: I dislike milk and will never drink it. I will put some in my coffee to lighten it though. I've found, over the years, that milk drinking snots me up. When I drink milk, even the organic variety, with any regularity, sinus problems rear their head, and I gradually get more and more congested. My snoring increases as well. I have never tried raw, unpasteurized milk, but hear it's much better for you than the pasteurized stuff. I have tried to drink start up drinking milk so many times, and the same thing happens every time. I am not lactose intolerant, so I just say milk snots me up.

Milk is one of those foods that a lot of people have sensitivity too, evn if it is just low level. I've heard loads and loads of anecdotal reports that children with lots of ear infections will get better when you take milk out of the diet.

Interestingly enough, I will use heavy whipping cream in my protein shakes, and this doesn't cause the same effect.

[Travis McHugh]

I am definitely not against milk, we give our daughter organic milk everyday. I am not consuming millk now because I am tinkering with my diet and finding out what works for me. Adding or removing one thing at a time to be better able to identify trends, symptoms, etc. My wife drinks Silk because she likes the taste more than milk.

I do have a question for anyone who may have researched the milk consumption topic:

Besides humans, what other adult mammals consume milk as part of their regular diet?

I was procrastinating here at work and that question came to mind.

Thanks,
Travis

[Doug Szolek]

Shaf, thanks for the recipe!

I think that will end up saving me some $$ down the road.

As for getting "snotted up" (very straight forward wording, I like it) I have noticed this in the past but am able to balance out these effects with Z-health breathing tied into my Warrior Wellness routines 8) .

To my knowledge, adult become lactose intolerant as they slow their milk consumption with age. The body isn't given as much need to produce the enzymes to digest milk so it slows down or stops their production and then when in comes the dairy, things tend not to work right :shock: .

I rented an apartment on a Goat Farm and it came with the perk of all the goats milk that I could drink (un-pasterized or homogenized), if it weren't for the insane land-lady that would have been ideal living :D .

thanks guys for another interesting instalment of "Dairy Talk"

[aaron]

Regarding lactose intolerance I have an interesting case. When I was younger I could consumer dairy. From the ages of around 10-16 dairy gave me painful stomach cramps and bowel movements. Around 16 though I ate more dairy and was not experiencing the same painful side effects. Too much dairy and I'd still be in pain but my limit was growing and continues too. I have stayed away from drinking full glasses of milk because I'm afraid, but I think I might give it a try soon to see how far my body has actually adapted. Maybe.

I found it interesting that milk with fat, whole milk, whole milk icecream, butter and cheese did not bother my stomach nearly as much and it seems that even for those not lactose intolerant fat free ice cream can be brutal. My former wrestling coach can attest to this. Just another use of fate in every day life.

[bob_stra]

Bob & fellow Knuckledraggers,

I looked over the Paleo diet and one of the first things that I saw was some anti-milk articles. Attending HSU, California I encounter a lot of vegans, vegetarians and whatnot. I have heard a lot of them speak of the ills of milk. I am curious what the tribe's opinion of milk is...




The latest research on milk is not good. The animal models are alarming to say the least. Off to PubMed I say!

As for me, I have no personal objection to milk. However, given my (limted) understanding of the situation, I choose to go without it.

No adverse effects. I get plenty of leafy green veggies - plenty of calcium.

Besides, as Arhnuld said "Babies drink milk. When you grow up, you have to drink beer" ;-)

(PS: I can't believe you guys elected him!)

[Connie Brown]

What does "plenty" of green leafies mean to you?

I have run the numbers for getting calcium from green leafies and the best I can come up with is about 4 cups per day of chopped boiled collards.

this is with a daily requirement of 1200 mg

The USDA puts out a list sorted by calcium - an easy way to scan for ideas on what to eat (whole foods)

http://www.nal.usda.gov/fnic/foodcomp/Data/SR16/wtrank/sr16w301.pdf

[bob_stra]

>I have run the numbers for getting calcium from green leafies and the >best I can come up with is about 4 cups per day of chopped boiled
>collards.

IIRC (and maybe I don't)

The absorbtion from leafy greens (such as kale) is somewhat higher than from milk (by about 10% or so). So, even though the overall content seems less, you get more useful calcium from such food.

www.fitday.com has a free online diary tracker. The last time I checked I seem to be doing ok on the calcium side of things (108% RDI). Typically I get 4 or 5 servings of greens a day. Eg big a$$ greek salad that I much on thru the day as a snack (sans cheese). Lettuce, capsicum, olives, tomato, mushrooms. Roughly abt 400grams

Try it out, see what you get.

re: RDA. I think maybe some of those numbers might be out. Even if they're spot on accurate (1200mg / day), you can easily get that much from a serving or two of salmon or some turnips (which are crazy insane for calcium content. Again IIRC). Almonds and other nuts have a decent whack of calcium in em too

[pookaboy]

FWIW,
The reason I don't drink milk is because of the "snotting" up that was mentioned above. Also, after having read the whole "Eat Right for Your Type" series of books, I found out that Blood Type A's tend to snot up more and are pretty much waved off from milk and dairy products, except for things like yogurt and kefir. Since I have quit drinking milk I have seen a greater ease in my breathing and am not coughing up "lung cookies" all the time because of an over-production of mucous.
Tom

[pookaboy]

All,
Well, it looks like I am back to the drawing board, or maybe an amalgamational diet. Just got sick of the Warrior diet and starving myself during the day. Wasn't that fun for me, especially in the middle of a class when my hunger was gnawing because I did a fairly intense workout that morning. I am back looking and researching for something else. Who knows, maybe we'll end up with something like Diet-Flow on down the line, "Flow w/ your body's Nutritional Needs".
The Paleothin diet is looking interesting too. But, after reading the websites and the rebuttals against the Fruitarians and the like, I liked to have giggled myself into a Pavelesque stomachache reading about Fruitarians and their skewed creationist views regarding diets and the rebuttals that science threw in their faces with evolutionist backgrounds and hard science to support their facts and refute the Fruitarians. Well, it was interesting to say the least. Here's the exact link if you want to read it:
http://www.beyondveg.com/nicholson-w/evo-creation/evo-vs-creation1a.shtml
The article is a rather long read but very informative in rebutting in a rather erudite Coach Sonnon-esque kinda way the Fruitarians on their supposed ideas regarding vegetarianism etc. It also gets exceptionally deep. So, if you don't want to do some deep thinking the above link is one of those you might want to avoid. On the other hand, if you are really interested, it will be well worth reading it.
Enjoy all!
Tom