Bad behavier in the dojo

[Coach Mohrdieck]

Good morning tribe!

Last monday I had a shocking 'event' in my BJJ class.
I have two new women and a couple of guys who are new to this type of training. One of the woman is a friend of mine since a few years and in our last chat 2 days ago she mentioned that it is easy for guys to touch women in an unkind way "by Accident" during grappling. I said it's possible but I never heard of it in my classes. She then told me that one of the new guys did it trice in one round.
For the guy it will have consequences next training, of course. but what is worse is that my friend worrys more about this guy after she heard I will talk to him etc. and is afraid she blame and betray him, what she did not do. I try to explain her that it was the best to tell me cause other females who don't know me that well probaly won't tell me and so such behavier could go on.
She even told me she will never tell me such things again if I do anything.
It's a ambivalent situation cause I fell I have to do some thing but if I do I lose the trust and the next time I might won't hear of misbehavier.

PS: Please excuse my bad english - I did my best ;-)

[Garth Sch]

So how did the gentle (or not so gentle) -man respond when you confronted him?

Did it appear deliberate on his part?

Garth

[Aengus]

Raimar,

Just a suggestion, Have your friend spar the fellow once more but ask her to make it clear that when he "touches" her that makes her uncomfortable and he should watch himself . Meanwhile, you should watch from a discrete distance. If you see her explain herself to him and he does it again, call him on it. Explain to him that that sort of behavior does not belong and it should stop immediatly. If that doesn't work, throw him out. This way, your friend is off the hook. She has not placed herself in a place where she is to blame for him getting reprimanded. She asked him to stop and he did not and he got busted. Then explain to the rest of the class, that this type of behavior is not tolerated.

Like I said just a suggestion. Stuff like that just makes my blood boil. Good luck.

[THEFORMERONE]

Raimar,

I agree with Dale's suggestion. She needs to bring it to his attention. Maybe it was an accident, maybe not. Either way, she needs to learn to stick up for herself. Also, it might not be a bad idea to give her a personal lesson and show her a good move. So next time it happens and she already addressed it, she takes him to the mat, locks an arm, leg, whatever and says "Next time I break it!". Or you spar with him and give him something to remember. But make sure its not an honest mistake first. If it is and she is uncomfortable, bring it up to the instructor and maybe he can teach some grace to the pawing grappler. Whatever, it is, it needs to stop before it goes further.

She might not want you to say anything because she feels embarassed, humiliated or unsecure (she wants to take care of it herself but is unsure). But support her no matter what, let her try to diffuse the situation and if she needs help, guide her in the right direction or have a chat on the mat with that filth. Maybe I am just hot-headed but I have had to "chat" with guys in the past on behalf of lady friends. The guy stops or gets hurt (but rarely did it escalate to that stage) and the lady gets "mad" (she says "I can't believe you did that" but really she is glad you stuck up for her) but the problem is gone and all is well. Bottom line: the situation needs to be addressed to all parties involved in order to reach a resolution, whatever that may be. Good luck!

Jason B.

PS
Don't worry about the English, most Americans don't even speak it well enough anyways.

[Ski]

Ski here,

This is very troubling indeed. Maintaining a safe, relaxed respectful atmosphere in any training session is one thing I truly believe in. In the military I ran into allot of training problems when the sexes were mixed. During PT sessions and field exercises special considerations always had to be made by those of us in charge. Some women did not feel comfortable having their legs held by a male while doing sit-ups, some had no issues at all. In the reverse, I knew Marines that would NEVER commit an inappropriate act that became quite concerned if they had to interact with females during PT or H2H work. They feared being accused of bad behavior and getting ran up the flagpole.

I've seen both sides of this type of dilemma and the thing that I have found to be of the greatest advantage is ensuring that everyone involved in an event or class fully understands that the person instructing will not tolerate inappropriate behavior in any form. Secondly there is an item I refer to as the "tree in the forest" situation. We've all heard the saying "if a tree falls in the forest and no one is there, does it make a sound?" I refer to this because all people participating in an event also need to know that if someone does something inappropriate, the offender needs to be told so immediately! The victim, for lack of a better term, must first and foremost state to the offender that their actions are out of line.


If the victim does not make their feelings known to the offender, further offenses will most likely be committed. Once told, the offender has received their first and final warning. The "victim" should inform the teacher, leader or instructor of the incident and then go on about the business at hand. Should another offense occur, the offender has just forfeited the right to participate.

I must caution though, being the person in charge also means that impartiality must be maintained. Just because outside of the event, classroom, or dojo, a participant is your friend, does not mean the incident is just as they say. Remember, there are three sides to every story, the first parties rendition, the second parties rendition and the truth.

One thing that has stuck with me for a long time was the advice I got before giving one of my first training classes involving civilians. An old Gunnery Sergeant told me: "if your in charge, make certain the environment you provide for training is safe, fair, relaxed, and that all participants understand that they will be held accountable for their actions. Always make your rules of conduct known to the attendees, ensure they agree to accept and understand them as well as the consequences for misconduct."

I don't know if any of this helps, but maybe you can extract something of benefit.

Sorry if I was a bit long-winded!
Thanks to all,
--Ski

[Chuck Kechter]

Raimar,

Jeff (ski) has it. I would only add one thing.

If you haven't done it yet, set expectations for your class, and their conduct up front, including consequences for inappropriate actions. Then no one has any excuse for bad behavior.

And if bad behavior happens then they will have no excuse as they all know that there will be consequences to their actions and what they are.

V/R,

Chuck

[wiggy1]

I agree with Chuck. Addressing the class as a whole first, outlining all of the "expected" appropriate behavior puts everyone on notice without singling one individual out. It also allows you to go further the first time you have to confront someone individually because a baseline has been established.

Brian

[rbibbs]

That's a good cross section of ideas for handling it, Raimar. The one I wouldn't endorse is using the sport itself as retribution. Intentionally injuring someone in practice is always wrong regardless of the provocation.

You discreetly withhold the exact nature of this "unkind touching". Would it rise to the level of "groping" (where a hand is deliberately placed on a personal part of the anatomy)?

Are you the instructor, with authority to remove disruptive students from class? If you are, and you observe this behavior and determine that "groping" is indeed what is going on, remove that person from class. Removing him only on the basis of one lady's complaint wouldn't be right, because she is "new" and might not understand the dynamic of the game where arms, legs, hands, feet, skulls can quite appropriately end up in otherwise "private" areas. For example, one of my sweep blocks consists of a forearm diagonally across the chest, hand on trap or collar; I do it whenever the situation calls for it, without regard to the gender of my opponent. If 'this' were what's happening, the lady in question would be simply misinterpreting. The fact that she doesn't want you to do anything about it even suggests that she feels this might be the case.

Realizing, that BJJ is sport fighting, and it's quite difficult to 'fight' in what would always be considered a "kind" way.

[Connie Brown]

Just to chime in from the novice women's perspective. I would totally feel safe in the dojo with these recommendations - I mean, that the teacher spells things out, talks about the responsibilities on all sides, and that the teacher has an eagle eye out for infractions as he would with any other kind of infraction.

As a newcomer to martial art it would also be helpful to underline what Rick just said, that sometimes parts touch parts, it's to be expected. It's all part of setting appropriate boundaries.

And if I were the instructor and suspected that the male in this story was truly groping, I would tell the girl she needs to holler next time, not out her for tattling, and I would watch the guy like a hawk hoping to catch him in the act. You might want to give the girl some stock phrases if she is new to this. what IS the code for when you want to say something? "hey that's not appropriate? " "watch it or lose it buddy"?

My personal favorite is one I saw on a crowded Chicago bus. This lady all of a sudden grabs a groper's hand and holds it high in the air and shouts, "whose hand is this? Keep it to yourself" So EVERYONE was staring at the guy. She did it faster than he could react. Okay, so maybe not a good idea nowadays with our rage levels so high, but long ago when I was in my 20s I thought it was great.

[HereBeADragon]

I think it is important to keep this touching in perspective. Was this guy really trying to touch her in a way he should not or were they simply grappling? During the situation how did the woman deal with it? A situation I had a while back with 2 of my students might be of help. I had this guy who recently began training with me. One night I matched him up with one of my female students to practice a blocking drill. 3 times this guy gets hit in the face. Not hard but it was starting to really frustrate him and I could see he was getting very worked up and angry. Then it happens. He reacts to soom again gets poped in the face a 4th time and goes off. He takes a swing at her, a hard one, she deflected the blow perfectly and I grabbed a hold of his arm before he could make a second. I then politely explained into his ear that he needs a break and to go calm down or I would have to calm him down. She was a bit shocked by the situation but other wise fine so I had her continue with another student. Later after class I asked her how she felt about the event and she told me it surprised her and she was sorry she hit him. I told her not to be sorry and that I was very pleased with what she did that night. She did not give him a false sense of security by not hitting him and she deflected the blow without having to think twice about it. She said she did not even think about the fact that she had deflected the strike and she was very happy with herself. I gave the other student a ride home and on the way we had a very important talk. I explained to him that my job is to teach him and his felow students how to fight and more importantly how to defend themselves. I also explained to him that I will not let any student of mine come to harm if I can help it. We discussed his anger issues and I offered to help him work through them any way I could but that if he takes a swing at another student out of anger and frustration even again that he will be had better be ready to swing on me too because I would be next on his dance card. After this insident my female student continued on not at all gun shy about working with male students and my other student in this story ultimately did quit classes. Not because he was forced to leave or because he had any issues with any other students but because he felt he needed to get help with his anger and did not feel right about returning to class until he got the help he needed. A bit of a long story but I feel it may be a bit of inspiration to help you deal with your issue. Just keep in mind that touching can happen with no intent involved and that sometimes people can over react. Prehaps pare him up with another female student and see how he acts. I hope you find an answer that will benefit both your students and yourself.

[Matt_OZ]

Ski, Chuck and Rick have really made some great points. I can't offer anything on this issue other than saying that a conduct code is a brilliant idea. I have always used them in my place and it helps set the tone from the start.

Best of luck with this sticky and unfortunate situation.

Good luck mate,
Matt

[Coach Mohrdieck]

Thank you for all your replies and all your helping words!

This is how it turns out:
I advised my friend to tell this guy direct and clear to watch his hands when it happens again and so she did. He was a kind of embaressed (?) and he didn't appear in the training again.

What I learned is, that I have to pay more attention to such things. I was a kind of naive and couldn't imagine that such things happen in MY classes.

Warm regards,

Raimar

[Jay76]

Maybe its a good idea to have women wrestle other women.

Have women wrestle men, but only if they are wearing a high gear suit.

[HereBeADragon]

There is indeed a slippery slope when it comes to unisex martial arts classes (especially any form of grappling) and fitness classes for that matter. There is always the issue of appropriate and inappropreate conduct in the classroom and where one begins and the other ends. I think that the purpose of the class should dictate weather or not that would be the right approach to take. If this is a BJJ class with a solely competitive purpose I.E. training to compete in BJJ tournaments and such that that would be a good option. But if this class is to serve the purpose of self defense than women IMHO absoultely must work with the men just as much if not more than other women. If a female student were to be attacked it would more likely be from a male aggressor than a female one. I do not know if this is really diverting from the main goal of this topic but i think this is a very important topic that Jay76 has brought up. In my classes I have always had the women and the men work together be it children or adults, grappling or standup fighting and the interesting thing I have seen is that when a woman gets past any feelings of intimidation or shyness the women usually become the most aggressive students in the class and can to say the least hold their own fighting the men. I recall one of my girls from the childrens class. She could wrap a leg scissor around your head like a boa constrictor from almost any possition. The guys usually have strength but the women usually develop a lot more sensitivity in their movements and quickly become cunning fighters against the men they work with. Its a thing of beauty to see an 80lbs 11 year old girl submit a 200+lbs man.

[Coach Gostnell]

To date, about the worst behavior we've had between students of the opposite sex in the five years I've been attending and assisting with classes was when a couple of high schoolers fell in love, but didn't actually like each other. The elation, the tears, the sulks, the fights, the making up, the making out (all done discreetly, they thought): It was exhausting to be around, makes a person glad those years are behind - FAR behind in some cases! :D

But, for the first time in my experience, something new has arisen that's
relevant to this thread, although different. It started when a parent called me over and said to me the other night at class: "Maybe you shouldn't have him (her son) working with a girl (on pad drills)...I don't think he knows he has hormones yet." The message being he DOES have hormones and might act inappropriately.

This bothered me for a couple reasons, not the least of which the "Well, boys will be boys" attitude of the parent which would seem to excuse the student not having good self-control, no matter how aware he is of his hormones, or not.

At the same time, I wouldn't want to put any of the young women students at risk of being the recipient of any possible inappropriate behaviors. The girl he was paired with that night, while of lower rank, strikes me as a fairly tough cookie who would put up with no nonsense, but, in light of the parent's statement, I might think before I matched him up with a younger, or more timid girl student. And of course, I'll now be watching him as much as possible, but in a large class that's not always possible.

The boy is about 12 or 13, big for his age, and not one of my favorite students. He's come close to washing out a couple times, but pulls his act together, showing dramatic improvement long enough that we all begin to hope he's finally getting the message. Then he slacks off again - I see a certain arrogance in him and he's always full of excuses about why he can't expend much effort.

I've read the posts about setting expectations for the whole class but we haven't dealt with this issue before & are behind the curve in anticipating it, except in addressing behavior in general. I've brought the above issue up for the team to discuss at our next meeting, but in the meantime, any
ideas for addressing the issue specific to burgeoning adolescents - and their doting parents - would be appreciated.

Thanks

[Chuck Kechter]

Jean,

I would say the same as above.

Communicate the expectations openly, both with the class(es), as well as individually if warranted.

With teens, and some misanthropic adults I would also make sure to choose my language carefully. Don't talk down to them, don't arouse them emotionally, or hormonally, by giving some "thou shalt" speech.

Just lay it out, that there are consequences to everyone's actions. Positive ones for positive actions. Negative for negative.

I've also found being a little self depreciating, and having some humor help.

Hopefully this helps.

All the best.

Chuck

[Connie Brown]

I second what Chuck said and with teens, make it in words of one syllable, very concrete (as opposed to abstract). Even some role play if you can pull it off without being totally dorky as the teacher. And look each of them in the eye. It's like trying to get the attention of lab puppies.

Like, "good" scene:

appropriate move (is this drill okay)
appropriate response (yes, thanks, it's go time)

"bad" scene:

inappropriate move (putting hand where it don't belong)
appropriate response (not okay with me, watch the hand)

[JasonE]

I have mixed feelings on this. The vast majority of schools I've trained at had men and women work together on most drills. However, some tended to have the women work with each other most of the time and with men less of the time.

The schools that I feel managed it most appropriately were standouts because of the culture they established amongst their students as opposed to how they split up the sexes. The more instructors tended to separate themselves from their students, the less personal consideration students would give one another.

The instructors that got in and worked with their students, of all ranks and abilities, tended to have the most cohesive and least problematic classes. These are the instructors that also set the highest standards for themselves and their students, and who could be the most critical without embarassing or angering a student.

[Coach Gostnell]

Thanks for all your thoughts on this. We're having a meeting soon & will hopefully hash it out. The particular student already takes a lot of time and attention away from other students, requires lots of one on one time, & I've really wracked my brain thinking up positive and creative ways to engage him: lots of energy; no energy; slack; no slack; humor; encouragement combined with critiques, and so on. And I've seen all the other instructors doing much the same. The parent just sits there beaming at him like he's god's gift to the world. :roll: Part of the problem, maybe?

[rbibbs]

Jean, tough issue. Learning opportunity for appropriate social behavior; not 'what they came there to learn'... or is it? Your objective point-of-view is most valuable to folks like that.

Our BJJ school mixes males and females, ages 15 to 58. Female-only classes are offered, but many females want to 'work uphill' against the upper-body strength advantage males have. For those going into formal competition, it trains them to the 'maximum-anticipated challenge'. For those training for self-protection, it gives them a datapoint on the scale of realistic threats they might face.

Strong leadership makes it possible for genders to work together. Without speeches or written handouts, our blackbelt makes it clear that we're all there for no-nonsense technical training, and 'deviations' from that motive won't be tolerated. There's never been an 'incident'.

[Jarlo Ilano]

Jean,

Not to sound horrificly jaded, but sometimes you have to "fire" a student. Especially if he is disruptive to others in your class.

My good friend runs a school, and he told me about how he tried as hard as possible to work things out with a particular student. But in the end, he had to tell him to leave.

I know you are doing all you can. And if you have been, and he still acts inappropriately, well, you shouldn't feel bad for letting him go.

Just my opinion.