Slow pushups?

[kaesa]

Hello,

I have started training in a martial art that for its warmup uses alot of SUPER slow calisthenics.

For example 20 count pushups.They are done by slowly counting to 20 on the way down, held in the down position for a 20 count, then ascending to a slow 20 count. The same with squats.
I'm told that it builds the tendon strength doing it this way.

I was looking for the groups opinions on this type of training.

Is there any way to measure if your tendon strength is increasing?

Thanks,
Joe

[Scott Sonnon]

Joe,

"Tendon strength" is a misnomer. You can't not affect attachments and connective tissue. There's only movement which binds your flow, and that which releases it.

[bob_stra]

> I was looking for the groups opinions on this type of training.

Better than some, worse than others.

Cheer up - you could be running 2km then stretching. :) (my warmup for WT class. Oh how foundly I recall it :(

It's funny though - the "worst" type of warm-ups seem to come from traditional striking arts like Kung Fu, karate etc. However stuff like aikido and judo are actually quite switched on abt joint mobility as a warm-up. I'm not sure why this is.

> Is there any way to measure if your tendon strength is increasing?

Autopsy ;-)

I suppose if you were *really* clever you could use a series of progressive MRI's to measure the thickness of the tendons.

You got $1000 every 3 months for the scan? I'll hook you up.

:lol:

[bradshaw]

Hi Joe,

While your instructor may value this type of training, it is only useful as it permits you to continue to train with your instructor. What I mean is that it really serves no purpose for you physically. With time, you will get better at it and it will get easier to a point. It won't build a whole lot of strength in your muscles. As far as tendon strength goes, why do you need stronger tendons? Tendons are already very strong. In the world of MA or any other training where a coach or instructor is involved, we may have to complete warm-up exercises that are not really that important for us. Will this hurt you? Unlikely - my advice is to just put up with it but don't place a lot of importance on it. If you were asking your questions to see if you might expand this type of training for your own benefit, good for you. Take a look at the products that RMAX has to offer. I've gotten great benefit out of all I've used so far. There is something here for everyone's goals. If you can't find exactly what you're looking for, just ask. Good luck.

[kaesa]

Fellas,

Thank's for the replies.

I love the, "autopsy" answer!

I've read before that using thick handled bb's/db's were good for increasing tendon strength. I believe it was in Brooks Kubick's, "Dinosaur Training" book, but it's been a few years since I've read it.

I am not sure what increasing tendon strength would mean to me martial arts wise, but from your answers it looks like it's not possible anyway.

The main reason I asked is because I consider mysely fairly strong, and when we first started doing these exercises I couldn't do them very well.
My body was shaking and I barely made it thourgh 1 complete rep, where I can normally bang out 60-70 reps in a normal fashion.

They also told me this type of training is to help with breathing.
Breathing your way through the pain type thing, so maybe I'm missing part of the lesson?

Anyway, thanks again for your answers.
Joe

[Scott Sonnon]

Brooks wasn't known for his scientific accuracy.

Strong is as strong does. Specificity. If you're moving in ultra-slow motion against continuous tension when you're fighting, then that type of strength will help you. But unless you're fighting underwater in heavy diving bells, I don't know that you will need it. Stimulate the physiological profile of how you fight to gain the benefits of conditioning to martial arts. Start practicing CST for more insights.

Breathing through the pain? Well, like all things, breathing is as breathing does. The relative intensity determines the protocol. Read "Breath Scales Mastery (http://www.circularstrengthmag.com/27/sonnon4.html)" in the current issue of CST Magazine.

Who is teaching you this?

[JasonE]

It sounds like you're getting a warmup, albeit one that probably has nothing to do with how you guys actually train or fight. You'll want to spend some time outside of class working on appropriate exercises for the development of the attributes you need.

[PaoloValladolid]

Hello,

I have started training in a martial art that for its warmup uses alot of SUPER slow calisthenics.

For example 20 count pushups.They are done by slowly counting to 20 on the way down, held in the down position for a 20 count, then ascending to a slow 20 count. The same with squats.
I'm told that it builds the tendon strength doing it this way.

I was looking for the groups opinions on this type of training.

Is there any way to measure if your tendon strength is increasing?

Thanks,
Joe

Sounds like Systema, though I was given a different rationale for doing them: Relaxation Training. The instructor would have us do another if he felt our upper bodies were still too tense (his alternative tactic was no less painful - he'd make you lie face down while he stretched your shoulders for you). I heard the same though about "breathing away the pain".

[Scott Sonnon]

Paolo,

It doesn't sound like the same thing that Kaesa is being instructed to perform. What you're describing is more along the lines of yoga asana (such as the plank) to melt away the superfluous residual over-tonus. It sounds like he is being instructed that this is some manner of physical exercise "warm-up."

Technically that isn't "relaxation" training, since it's impossible to be relaxed. It's post-fatigue training, which in super-slow continuous tension has inherent dangers to connective tissues. Smooth, moderate speed continuous motion along the length of locally held tension (Body-Flow's Biomechanical Exercise) is much more effective at releasing this over-tonus.

[PaoloValladolid]

Coach, what you say makes a lot of sense, though I thought what Kaesa said sounds like what the Systema class that I visited does after their breathing-only drills, which are done in a supine position. We also did slow squats against the wall for counts of 15-30 seconds per rep. The purpose of those was easier to see in that it was supposed to help train Systema's "Form".

I don't do Systema-style calisthetics myself and in fact am doing some Body Flow BMEs to complement my shoulder rehab routine - those that I can do pain-free and/or without loading my shoulder.

[Scott Sonnon]

Paolo,

As a form of SPP, the CST guideline is stimulate don't simulate. In other words, stimulate the physiological profile of the activity, but don't simulate the actual skill being developed. So, it depends on the target energy system that his martial art class intends to model. I doubt that any martial art (except for the obvious underwater fighting) needs to stimulate "super-slow" tension.

Keep us updated on your shoulder recovery!

[Jay76]

Coach


It's post-fatigue training, which in super-slow continuous tension has inherent dangers to connective tissues. Smooth, moderate speed continuous motion along the length of locally held tension (Body-Flow™'s Biomechanical Exercise™) is much more effective at releasing this over-tonus.


Can you elaborate more on this subject at all or thats it? Its very interesting topic :)) Thanks

[Scott Sonnon]

What specifically is your question?

[Coach Jones]

I don't want to hijack this thread but this caught my eye.


While your instructor may value this type of training, it is only useful as it permits you to continue to train with your instructor. What I mean is that it really serves no purpose for you physically

If you have to do things that are, at best, non-productive and at worst counter-productive in order to train with a particular instructor, then maybe it's time to re-evaluate your purpose for being there. If it's not making you better and possibly inhibiting your performance then why stay?

How is he making you better?

[Jay76]

It's post-fatigue training, which in super-slow continuous tension has inherent dangers to connective tissues. Smooth, moderate speed continuous motion along the length of locally held tension.

Bascially slow training vs fast training in terms of strengthen connective tissue.

Doesnt any training strengthen connective tissues..?

[bradshaw]

I like Coach Jones' point. What you need to do is evaluate if this type of warm-up will negatively affect you. If there aren't a lot of reps or time spent on this training than it's probably not a big deal. But, seeing as how you just started training, now is a good time to make sure it's where you want to be. There are usually many places to train and styles to practice. In my experience, many instructors tend to use the same warm-ups passed down to them. Or, he/she actually did some research and found a reference to this type of training. That shows that he/she is at least interested in helping the students. It's unfortunate, though - there is so much information out there on types of exercise (some good, some bad) that many of us train for years in a misinformed manner. In my opinion, you and I are both fortunate we have access to thos forum. Good luck

[Scott Sonnon]

Aaron,

Indeed this is the central issue. The problem isn't the lack of good info (just look at the wealth of info on CST Magazine! :shock: ) But rather the choking volumes of inappropriate information.

[Jrichardson]

Since there's at least a dozen Systema people in my area, I've had ample opportunity to explore these movements. Guess I should weigh in...

Based upon my observation and exploration, the goal behind the Systema slow pushup, situp, and squat seems to be to integrate breathing, movement, and structure.

No, really. Bear with me here. :wink:

I've been told many things about the 20-count slow exercises: "They're breathing exercises." "Try to rest on your structure rather than your muscles" "they're to help prime you for taking and giving punches." "You only need to do one of each of these a day." "Breathe to get rid of pain/tension instead of breaking structure."

That says to me:

1) They're not meant as a strength or endurance exercise;
2) Exess tension in the target areas has to be dissipated into other areas of the body;
3) Most of what's going on in them should be stuff you can't see.

Near as I can tell the idea is to constantly adjust tension so that weight is as structurally supported as possible, while slowly incrementing movements so that the structure can change shape. The breath is the primary focus of this process; the idea is to exhale to mitigate unwanted tension and create enough change in the structure to allow the next movement increment.

What makes it work is that while the overall movement is slow, the waves of tension cycling up and down the structure (generally corresponding with the breath) can be quite rapid. Once you get the hang of it, a 20-count pushup is actually much easier than 20 pushups, and gives much the same "warm-loose" feeling in the targeted areas as do joint-mobility exercises.

The only major weaknesses I see in these exercises is overestmation of their value, and poor communication as to their form and purpose. I had to figure out how to actually do them using RMAX material...

In any case I do them now and again, sometimes as sort of a shallow/broad, space-efficient "spot check" of my physical state, and my progress in other areas (I figure if I'm improving my integration, they should be easier every time I try them, no matter how infrequent).

Sometimes if I'm feeling really unmotivated I'll use them as a lead-in to Warrior Wellness -- they're simple enough to just DO, no matter how un-energetic I feel, but I have to prime all the same mechanisms in order to do them right, so WW is easier to start afterwards.

All in all, though, I agree with Scott's opinion. The benefits of the "slow exercises" are, at best, implicit and indirect, rather than explicit and transparent. At worst, you waste a lot of time and effort trying to "get" them through trial and error. (caveat: this perspective may merely be due to the limitations of my exposure to the material).

Incidental details:

- The 20-counts I've been exposed to almost never hold at the bottom for more than a few seconds, just enough time to "settle" into the bottom position.

- For pre-contact release of physical and emotional tension during training, and for post-fatigue work, the Systema guys I've worked with almost always used faster pushups/squats/situps (usually with variable breathing patterns within the same movement, reminiscent of experimenting with 5 tibetans breathing patterns). That and hitting each other.

[Scott Sonnon]

Jon,

Can we modify this for an article in CST Magazine?

[Jrichardson]

Sure!

[Michael Greinecker]

"Tendon strength" is a misnomer. You can't not affect attachments and connective tissue. There's only movement which binds your flow, and that which releases it.

I´m not sure what you mean by this. Tendons do adapt to the demands of strength training by becoming thicker. It makes sense to assume it takes more force to rip them apart, so they do indeed become stronger. While one could argue that this is irrelevant outside rehab, considering how much stronger tendons are than muscles, one surely can affect them.

[Scott Sonnon]

Yes, one can argue that point. As I stated, the conventional notion of "tendon strength" in the "martial arts community" is that through certain "specialized exercises" you can focus on the tendons without working on the muscles, which is absurd.

[Michael Greinecker]

Agreed.