Training for self-defense ?

[Shane]

Do we need to drill differently for self-defense than we would for MMA? If
so why?

-Shane

[SFE]

Shane-

Interesting question...

[Jford]

Shane, do you expect to be in a hostile situation soon? eg. millitary deployment? Then self defense drills should be a focus. Are you a MMA sportsman? What is your level of experience with martial arts, sport & self defense? Do you have shockablity or immovable object unstoppable force? They are good starting points. Far beyond sports or self defense there is body flow, the reason I say far beyond is this, if you are frozen (either totally or partially) with fear, you will not be able to do the drills that were practiced, you may do something you may not. The ability to flow is the goal. Speaking for myself, I enjoy martial arts and martial sport and have for many years. My two biggest problems (which are really one) are techniques and katas! I became very technically proficiant at various techniques. In self defense occasions I did not use any of them. Body flow eliminates the technique problem like a silver bullet! RMAX tapes and this forum are filled with absolutly great information.

Welcome,

John Ford

[Coach Hurst]

Shane,

I think one thing that seperates the two is the fact that in MMA you are agreeing to throw blows, etc with another person. In a SD situation the engagement is not pre-determined and typically a non-(dis)agreed engagement. Your physical training for both might resemble the other a little bit but your mental training will not. In MMA arts there are RULES which create a BOUNDARY. No stikes to such and such place. When the man is down return to your corner. There is a REFEREE. You can turn around and walk back to your corner.

In SD situations there is not the luxury of RULES and BOUNDARIES. Anything goes within reason.
(Read the Aikido Used as Murder Defence post here.http://www.circularstrengthmag.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=3960).
There is no REFEREE. And you ESPECIALLY don't turn your back and just walk away. Guns, knives and even your loved ones can be used against you in a SD situation. That calls for a different kind of training that goes WELL beyond just knowing XYZ techniques that can be helpful in the MMA ring.

One (there are many) of the most useful things in regards to SD and in life in general is being able to diffuse a situation. Whether that be with a mugger, a fellow co-worker, your wife/girlfriend/husband/boyfriend or child. I don't see anyone in MMA trying to talk down their opponent and get them to submit verbally...

So, to answer your question; YES. Different drills do need to be explored to prepare us for the SD and MMA realm. Especially within the Mental Drills department.

Not until you are placed in both situations do you realize just how different the two can be.

Hope that this helped.

[Shane]

I do believe that there is a difference in how we should drill SD vs. sport.
I am really trying to get a survey of opinions from others as to why they
think there is a difference and most importantly how are these differences
trained. Also, since on the street rarely is someone attacked by a skilled
fighter should we focus on defending the primary street attacks? Some say
that training against the most common attacks would be building are skills
against the lowest common denominator, but isn't it really just the most
probable denominator? I like Scott's talk of symmetrical vs. asymmetrical
engagements. Are'nt most street engagements asymmetical? If this is true,
and I think it is how should our drills change? For example, lets take boxing
sparring as a drill for MMA; would it have the same benefit for SD? One
thing I have tried since changing my focus on SD rather than MMA when it
comes to a hands only drill like boxing is this; we start at conversation
distance in natural postures and the attacker can only throw wild haymakers
and the defender can only use boxing technique. Would this be a good
example of an asymmetrical training drill. We have noticed that the suprise
of the first haymaker and the constant pressure makes it nearly impossible
to "box" with the opponett, even with us who have boxed since our youth.
The biggest factor I have seen in this is the total difference in rythm
between the two different types of drills. Thanks again for any input.

Shane

[Jford]

Shane, quote: we start at conversation
distance in natural postures and the attacker can only throw wild haymakers
and the defender can only use boxing technique. Would this be a good
example of an asymmetrical training drill. This does not in my mind describe a asymmetrical environment. Your mind first and body second is what you will need for a asymmetrical encounter. You are making the assumption that the attacker is un- trained? Limiting yourself to only boxing is not asymmetrical. If you want to use boxing techniques in self defense the described drill may be useful. Boxing has many rules to protect the boxers, asymmetrical encounters do not. My teacher had me defend myself in cars, under tables & many other places (limited by your imagination and desire for safety). I spent along time training to use this style or that technique. My two cents, (spend it how you wish):D , : Develop a good movement palette and train to get out of the way of your own flow. :D

[HereBeADragon]

Try starting to trade blows nose to nose. Not clinched not in a ready stance but right in the face of the other person. This really gives a more intense feel of a true confrontation imho and it makes it a lot more difficult to trade blows and defend yourself. I think this can be considered a range often ignored so it might be a fun training tool. Try it out :)

[Ryan Murdock]

Shane wrote:

Do we need to drill differently for self-defense than we would for MMA?

Yes, most definitely. You pegged the crux of the issue when you drew the distinction between symmetrical and assymetrical training protocols. Sportive matches are symmetrical. Both parties have arrived prepared to fight, they are simultaneously attacking and defending, the conflict is bound by rules,... Self-defence situations are assymetrical, with one or more attackers and one defender. You could stretch the definition by saying that some self-defence situations could be symmetrical, say you get into a pushing match that escalates to a fight. However, the situation is not bound by rules, and if you're sensible you're assuming that your opponent has friends that may jump in unexpectedly, hidden weapons will be present,...

If you are training for self-defence, all of your training drills should be crafted assymetrically. The 3DPP is very explicit about this.

Coach Sonnon wrote:

When preparing for boxing (what I call symmetrical engagement), practice in suddenly violent counter-ambush scenario training (what I call assymetrical engagement) holds only indirect preperatory value. Contrarily, when preparing for law enforcement hostile subject control (assymetrical engagement), practice in sport Brazilian jujutsu (symmetrical engagement) holds only indirect preparatory value.

To avoid cocktailing your training, and to maximize limited training and recovery time, it is imperative that you be clear about your baseline.

There's no need to get bogged down in technical issues. Once you've established which protocol, assymetrical or symmetrical, best fits your needs, you can craft drills to address your unique individual challenges using the Static, Fluid and Dynamic drill progressions. Friction in the form of combat multipliers are increased incrementally until you reach the realm of Dynamic drills, where you address situational variables like terrain, innocent bystanders, darkness,... And within this entire progression you constantly slide back and forth on the Softwork to Hardwork continuum. Think of all of this as a framework within which you slot drills of your own invention.

The type of atack that you are faced with, whether a 'trained jab' or wild haymakers, is irrelevant. It's all just incoming force. Rather than learn to react in a pre-planned fashion to different styles of fighting, you're training yourself to improvise solutions in the moment, so that you can respond to incoming force no matter what it is. Don't get hung up on technicalities, learning to improvise and to flow is the key.

So to come back full circle to the question above, the distinction between assymtrical and symmetrical must be made before you start crafting drills. It will shape the focus and direction of your training.

[SFE]

Ryan:

Awesome!!!! 8)

Great stuff!