Vaccine info

[Jay76]

info about vaccines.

http://www.nccn.net/~wwithin/vaccine.htm

[dave_rusin]

Posterity will look upon vaccinations as one of the greatest crimes against humanity. It simply amazes me how many people have been taken and so gullible by an industry that seeks only life-long customers for their toxic potions… A real testament to the brainwashing power of corporate advertising and government/institutional obfuscation.

Vaccinations are ineffective, unnecessary and unsafe, based upon a preposterous, scientifically-unsound medical theory that to this day has never been proven. At BEST it is sheer medical quackery… At worst… well, you decide…

http://www.vaclib.org/

http://www.google.com/custom?cof=AH%3Acenter%3BAWFID%3A5cdb2968a482194d% 3B&domains=www.mercola.com&sitesearch=www.mercola.com&q=vaccines&sa2=Search

If the above link does not work go to http://www.mercola.com and type in vaccines in the search bar, upper right on screen.

Or check out Gary Null’s site. http://www.garynull.com/Article.aspx?Article=/Library.aspx&Head=Library
Enter vaccines in the search bar.

A good short book exposing this crime against humanity from Amazon.com

“The Sanctity of Human Blood: Vaccination is not Immunization” by Tim O’Shea
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/192948707X/qid=1101735943/sr=1-1/ref=sr_1_1/104-6247308-1120700?v=glance&s=books

This is one of the Big Lies of the last century. You owe it to yourself and your children to know the truth.

[Jay76]

How does one save ones child from having it done. Since One needs these shots to get into schools, etc ??

[dave_rusin]

Jason,

Check this link for exemption info, http://www.vaclib.org/indexdoc.htm#avoid

As I understand it, each state is different.

Best of luck protecting those you love from these heinous poisons.

[Vbrown]

Last I checked, there's been a massive dip in iron lung fabrication over the years thanks to the polio vaccine. Small pox rears it's head mostly in spy novels. And when was the last time you saw panic in someone's face at the mention of the flu? As compared to say 1918....

"Quakery" is just a wee bit of overstatement. Certainly there are some safety concerns that deserve honest investigation, but to make statements such as crimes against humanity are hyperbolic at best, irresponsible at worst.

Vince

[dave_rusin]

Vince,
With all due respect, do your homework before you discount such characterizations.

[Vbrown]

Well Dave, I've taken 2 courses in immunology, 2 in physiology, 1 in biochemistry and more chemistry than you can shake a stick at. I've spoken with friends on the topic who hold PhD's in microbiology, biochemistry and an ND who I've worked with on a professional level. I received my degree in chemistry and have worked for some of the top researchers in the world. I am currently studying with some of the leading edge researchers in cancer and immunology in context of "alternative" or complementary medicine.

So, with THAT level of background, I read portions of the websites that you have posted. Then I looked at your sweeping statements and THEN I discounted your characterizations. I stand behind my statements.

To say that vaccines are harmless to everyone is certainly un-true. There does need to be continued investigations and studies on how everything is made, processed and evaluated.

However the websites you have posted highlight half truths and over-state positions to eclipse actual science.

I've been doing my homework for 14 years thus far and show no signs of stopping.

Vince

[Coach Gostnell]

I haven't taken any courses in immunology, but I HAD most of those illnesses that we now immunize against - scarlet fever, whooping cough, chicken pox, mumps & two or three kinds of measles. I was puny to begin with & always got them worse than the other kids in the family - life-threatening a couple of times. I spent huge chunks of summer vacation in bed, watching the other kids head out to the pool, and I spent weeks each winter sick with flu or upper respiratory crud.

Meanwhile, the kid down the street got polio, did evntually re-learn to walk but suffered from post-polio syndrome as an adult. Nobody got to swim at all that summer - 100 degrees & few had a/c in those days.

It took me years as an adult to build my immune system up so that I don't get sick several times a year. No way would I risk putting my own kids through that hell. Yes, in a perfect world, everyone's immune system would be able to fight off disease, but I couldn't guarantee that something wouldn't stress their immune systems, so that if they get exposed, they'd get sick.

So the above is "anecdotal" and scientifically worthless, but when you're responsible for the health and well-being of another human being, to vaccinate, & especially to NOT vaccinate is a decision not to be made lightly.

[Vbrown]

Wow Jean, that's a huge amount to go thru. I'd say you're immune system did a pretty darn good job, all things considered!

I figure with kids, just about every descision you have to make isn't made lightly.
:?

Be well,

Vince

[dave_rusin]

Hey Vince,

That is quite an impressive resume’. However, you do a disservice to those readers of this thread who seek the truth of vaccines by minimizing the dangers they pose. I wonder if your judgement of hyperbole, irresponsible statements and “half-truths” would console those parents whose children were killed or permanently injured by vaccines. Perhaps you do not believe that forcing millions of people without their informed consent to accept injections of known carcinogens and other highly toxic materials based upon a fatally flawed and unproven medical theory is a crime against those people, when death, injury or long term chronic disease is a very real possible result.

There is extensive research by doctors, scientists and medical researchers that back up my contentions. So your mere browsing of a couple of websites that only scratch the surface of this issue certainly does not mean you have done your homework, not the homework I’m talking about. There is more than ample scientific and empirical evidence to prove that vaccines are unnecessary, unsafe and ineffective, your sweeping and authoritative dismissal notwithstanding.

I don’t know you personally, and I won’t disrespect you the way you’ve done me in this thread, but you seem like an intelligent person. You might do well to educate yourself on the politics of “medicine” and the relationship between Big Business and the educational establishment.

[Vbrown]

I feel I made it pretty clear that I've been talking with learned folk on this topic over the past few years. The viewing of you alarmist, straw-man websites just confirmed which vein you have chosen to take.

Apparently I must repeat myself. To say the vaccines are uniformly safe for all people is as untrue as the "crimes against humanity" position. There does need to be continued studies on concepts, process and execution of this feild. To not do so would be irrisponsible.

Your statements are inflammitory, which will do nothing for those who have died either. There are, however, ways of pointing out concerns to people without fear-mongering. You have chosen otherwise.

To discount the hundreds of millions who have been spared from death or disfigurement is short sighted and self absorbed. To dismiss the suffering of the millions who have suffered as a result of vaccination would be hubris.

You may want to re-read my statements and see which of us have given a sweeping dismissal on the topic.

Vince

[Brett]

Epidemiological studies with regards to the efficacy of vaccines is seriously flawed. Most organisms blammed for the diseases vaccinated for don't meet the criteria for Koch's Postulates. That being said, the concept of vaccinations is valid and works for some, not for others. My experience with "certain" vaccines for off label uses has been quite impressive.

Because the concept of vaccines is a good one-flawed but good, many brillant researchers, clinicians refuse to look for alternative or additional means of dealing with mass infectious illness and or modifying the means that are currently used.

Being a Naturopathic physician, I have treated many communicable diseases in non-vaccinated individuals with success because I looked at the individual as a distinct entity not using a cookbook approach. I had that luxury, many public health officials do not therefore they must try to prevent such outbreaks the only way they know how. Unfortunately, the belief is the greatest good for the greatest number.

If a public health department vaccinates 100 people for polio and 10 get polio, they think the vaccine worked without truly investigating the hows, whys etc. As a physician, my decision to vaccinate a patient is based on many factors including the quality of the vaccine itself. Some get 'em and most do not.

We could go on with the pro and cons, flaws and benefits of vaccinations and it could be a truly educational and fun discussion but no more dissing each other.

Brett Jacques, ND

[dave_rusin]

Vince,

What you have made clear is that your real interest is to be perceived as right in this debate. This serves nothing but your own precious ego. And you continue to disrespect me. I, however, will not sink to your level, other than to say, in the interest of your own growth, and for the benefit of the readers of this thread interested in the truth of vaccines, that you speak from an ill-informed position. Neither your moderator status, nor your background makes you an expert on all matters discussed here. I, too, have spent several years investigating this issue. And other exceptionally learned and credentialed folks, much more educated and experienced than you or I, have done much more than I to research this topic and get the truth out. Fear is born of ignorance, Vince, not knowledge and truth. It is you that needs to do more reading and re-reading. I need not re-read your disparaging comments and self-righteous ignorance.

But please don’t take my word for it. As I said, if you are TRULY interested, instead of trying to confuse the issue and minimize the dangers, you will do your own homework, as I and countless others have done and continue to do. I honestly hope that you have the integrity to do the research, at least, before disrespecting others that have done it and drawn appropriate conclusions.

Let’s see what a few other learned folks have to say about the matter. I’ve only copied the first several comments of this compilation to this thread. To read the rest, see the URL under Compiled by June Russell. After reading this, again, you will have just scratched the surface.


Vaccinations
Compiled by June Russell
http://educate-yourself.org/vcd/vaccinationsbyjunerussell22nov02.shtml
November 22, 2002

Lendon Smith, M.D
We are wise to be nervous about the safety of the shots that are so casually given to children. Some of the evidence that has been published in the peer-reviewed literature indicates that the shots for the usual childhood diseases are neither safe nor effective. There is good evidence that the shots actually impair the immune system. The shots tie up a large part of the body’s immune function, and there is little left to fight the usual cold or flu.

In 1993, Cincinnati witnessed an epidemic of whooping cough and 400 children caught it - 80% of them had been immunized.

The incidences of asthma, autism and autoimmune diseases have increased since these shots have become so common. We can blame diet and pollution, but the shots seem to play a role as well. Dr. Smith wrote that he used to advocate vaccines when he first went into practice in 1951, but noted that many of his patients were still getting the diseases after being fully immunized. He now feels that the best approach is to provide children with optimal immune systems. Vitamin C, A, and E, phytochemicals, and other antioxidants help the immune system fight off diseases naturally.

(Let’s Live magazine - March 1998 - “Should We Use Vaccines?” Lendon Smith, M.D.)

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Richard Moskowitz, M.D.
“For us to bombard a newborn baby with a whole battery of vaccines as their very first immunological experience I think is reckless beyond measure. I would say it borders on the criminal. Because of my experiences in medical practice, I am sensing and fearing that by making war on specific, acute diseases, we're promoting the incidence of chronic diseases in the population. I call vaccines a sacrament because we don't question their use. Vaccines should be optional for anybody who wants them: those that do, as well as those that don't, should be studied for information.”

The West Germans and several other countries have made vaccinations optional, and no epidemics have occurred. Vaccinations essentially suppress the immune system.
(The Vaccination Debate - “Modern Miracle or Time Bomb?” Natural Health - Nov./Dec. 1997)

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Richard Moskowitz, M.D
What we have done by artificial Vaccinations is essentially to trade off our acute, epidemic diseases of the past century for the weaker and far less curable chronic diseases of the present, with their amortizable suffering and disability.
(Health Freedom News - May 1984. “How Do The Vaccines Work?” Richard Moskowitz, M.D.)

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Alan Phillips
Health authorities credit vaccines for disease declines, and assure us of their safety and effectiveness. Yet these seemingly rock-solid assumptions are directly contradicted by government statistics, medical studies, FDA and CDC reports, as well as reputable research scientists from around the world. In fact, infectious diseases declined steadily for decades prior to vaccinations.

U.S. doctors report thousands of serious vaccine reactions each year, including hundreds of deaths and permanent disabilities (the FDA estimates that only about 10% of the adverse reactions are reported), fully vaccinated populations have experienced epidemics, and researchers attribute dozens of chronic immunological and neurological conditions to mass Vaccinations programs.

“I urge caution when discussing this subject with doctors, as most have staked their identities and reputations on the presumed safety and effectiveness of vaccines, and thus have difficulty acknowledging evidence to the contrary.”

Vaccination Myth #1 - “Vaccines are completely safe....” or are they?

One study led to the conclusion that 1/2 of the SIDS cases - that would be up to 5,000 infant deaths each year - are caused by vaccines, says Viera Scheibner, Ph.D., in “Vaccination: 100 years of Orthodox Research Shows that Vaccines Represent a Medical Assault on the Immune System.”

Myth #2 “Vaccines are very effective...” or are they? (These are only a few of the facts used)

In 1989 the CDC reported that among school children measles outbreaks have occurred in schools with vaccination levels of greater than 98% (they even reported an outbreak in a documented 100% vaccinated population!).

A recent study found that measles vaccination “produces immune suppression which contributes to an increased susceptibility to other infections” (Clinical Immunology and Immunopathology, May 1996). In the 1993 Chicago outbreak of pertussis cases, 72% of those affected were fully up to date with their vaccinations. Evidence suggests that vaccination is an unreliable means of preventing disease.

Myth #3 - “Vaccines are the main reason for the low disease rates in the U.S. today...” or is it the vaccines?

According to the British Association for the Advancement of Sciences, childhood diseases decreased 90% between 1850 and 1940, paralleling improved sanitation and hygienic practices, well before mandatory vaccination programs. Infectious disease deaths in the U.S. and England declined steadily by an average of about 80% during this century (measles mortality declined over 97%) prior to vaccinations.

World Health Organization found that the disease and mortality rates in third world countries have no direct correlation with Vaccinations procedures or medical treatment, but are closely related to the standard of hygiene and diet. Credit given to vaccinations for our current disease incident has been grossly exaggerated. (He also gives many incidences of under reporting of the cases of infectious diseases)

Myth #4 - “Vaccination is based on sound Vaccinations theory and practice...” Or is it?

There are many documented instances showing that fully vaccinated populations do contract diseases; with measles this actually seems to be the direct result of high vaccination rates (Archives of Internal Medicine 1994).

According to studies, vaccination depletes Vit. C.

Myth #5 - “Childhood diseases are extremely dangerous . . .” or are they really?

Not only are the most infectious diseases rarely dangerous, but they can actually play a vital role in the development of a strong, healthy immune system.

Myth #6 - “Polio was one of the clearly great vaccination success stories . . .” or was it?

Vaccines caused substantial increases in polio after years of steady declines, and they are the sole cause of polio in the U.S. today.

Myth #7 - “If there is no short-term reaction to vaccination, is there nothing to worry about?”

Vaccine components include known carcinogens (one of which is formaldehyde). Low grade encephalitis occurs in about 15 to 20% of vaccinated children, says medical historian, researcher and author, Harris Coulter, Ph.D.

Viral elements in vaccines may persist and mutate in the human body for years, with unknown consequences. The long term adverse effects of vaccinations have been virtually ignored, in spite of strong correlations with many chronic conditions.

Myth # 8 - “Vaccines the only option?” Or are they?

Documented safe and effective alternatives, such as homeopathy, to vaccinations have been available for decades but suppressed by the medical establishment.

In the December 1994 ‘Medical Post,’ Canadian author of the best-seller “Medical Mafia,” Guylaine Lancet, M.D. stated, "The medical authorities keep lying. Vaccination has been a disaster on the immune system. It actually causes a lot of illnesses, and we are actually changing our genetic code through vaccination."

Without public outcry, we will see more and more new vaccines required of us and our children. Whatever your decision, make an informed one.
(“Dispelling Vaccination Myths” by Alan Phillips, Director of Citizens for Healthcare Freedom, 1998. )

Note: The above is only a sample of a few of the facts. If you want further information, write: Vaccine Awareness, P.O. Box 62282, Durham, N.C. 27715.

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Clinton Miller
A statement by Clinton Miller in testimony before the House of Representatives: "A mass vaccination program carries a built in temptation to oversimplify the problem, to exaggerate the benefits, to minimize or completely ignore the hazards, to discourage opposition, to create an urgency where none exists, and to continue support of a vaccine long after it has been discredited."
(“Why Vaccination Persists” - Nov. 1999 - World Wide Web)

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Dr. George S. White, M.D.
“Take all the profit out of manufacturing and administration of serums and vaccines and they soon would be condemned, even by those who are now using them.”
(Dr. George S. White, M.D. - World Wide Web)

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Natural Health magazine
“If you are not at high risk for an infectious disease, there is no reason to put your health in jeopardy by getting unnecessary vaccinations, say anti-vaccine advocates.”

In Sept. 1999, at the First International Public Conference on Vaccination, sponsored by the NVIC, scientists describe how childhood vaccination can provoke genetic and chromosome damage, as well as the connection between vaccines, infant death, and learning disabilities.
(“FITNESS ON LINE” - Nov. 1999 Natural Health magazine)

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Kristine M. Severyn RPh, Ph.D
The FDA estimates that less than 10% of physicians report vaccine adverse reactions, so when parents are told that the benefits of vaccines outweigh the risks, no one knows what the true risks are.

Instead of emphasizing a healthy, wholesome lifestyle as the best prevention against hepatitis B disease, including refraining from illicit drug use and premarital sexual intercourse, the federal government targets middle schools for government mass hepatitis B vaccination programs. It is unjust to require persons who practice premarital chastity to submit themselves to vaccine risks for diseases they will likely never encounter. Because of the incomplete knowledge of the long-term safety and effectiveness, compulsory vaccination laws essentially employ children as involuntary medical research subjects, in direct violation of the Nuremberg Code (whose first and most important tenet is voluntary consent).

The CDC estimates that it will take 20 to 30 years of routine infant and pre-teen hepatitis B vaccinations to determine if the campaign actually results in decreased incidence of disease.

Information from Dr. Severn’s pamphlet on “Flu Shots: Do They Really Work?” and from her newsletters.

Congress and the American taxpayer have been defrauded about the alleged advantages of flu shots. Instead of being an effective prevention, evidence indicates that flu shots may be worthless. The benefit is for those who make money from them.

The cost benefit ratio cited has not included the cost of those seriously injured or killed from vaccines. Parents should have freedom of choice, as they are the ones who will have to assume the care of the vaccine-damaged children.

There are no medical studies proving the safety of combination vaccines.

Routine chicken pox vaccinations (good for 6-10 years) in healthy children may leave them vulnerable to this disease when they are adults, when the death rate can be quite high.
( “How safe are vaccinations?” by Kristine M. Severyn RPh, Ph.D., founder and director of the Vaccine Policy Institute, Catholic Twin Circle, June/July 1997. )

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Let’s Live magazine
As far as the flu shots are concerned, the medical community seems divided about their appropriateness. While some research has shown that these Vaccinations may be beneficial for the elderly or immuno-compromised individuals, other research suggest that these shots are most ineffective. According to Richard Judelsohn, M.D., associate chairman of the New York State Vaccinations Advisory council, 30% of these vaccines are not effective. Flu and pneumonia vaccines are 50-60% ineffective.

Doctors see many flu patients who have had the flu shot.
(Let’s Live magazine, by the Editor, Jan. 2000)

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Philip Incao, M.D.
The rate of chronic illness in children has tripled since 1960, possibly due to the overuse of childhood vaccinations. It is healthier for the child to undergo an acute respiratory infection, with appropriate herbal and homeopathic support, than to suppress or preempt it with antibiotics and vaccinations.
(“Supporting Children’s Health” - Philip Incao, M.D., Alternative Medicine Digest, Aug./Sept. 1997)

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From Kathleen Finn
Researchers report in the American Journal of Epidemiology, that children die at a rate eight times greater than average within 3 days of getting a DPT shot.
(“Vaccination: Prevention or Poison?” Delicious magazine, Sept. 1994, by Kathleen Finn)

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Neil Miller
Vaccine production is a disgusting procedure. To begin, one must first acquire the disease germ - a toxic bacterium or a live virus. To make a live vaccine, the virus must have been weakened for human use. This is accomplished by serial passage - passing the virus through animal tissue several times to reduce its potency. For example, measles virus is passed through chick embryos, polio through monkey kidneys, and the rubella virus through human diploid cells (the dissected organs of an aborted fetus!). Killed vaccines are inactivated through heat, radiation, or chemicals.

In childhood vaccines there are many extremely toxic substances with a long history of documented hazardous effects - some can lead to cancer, neurological damage and death. Researchers say that this biological matter that is injected into our bodies can change our genetic makeup.

The FDA recently reported that 90% of the doctors do not report vaccine reactions. In the 7 years from 1990 to 1997 more than $802 million had been awarded for hundreds of injuries and deaths caused by mandated vaccines. Thousands of cases are still pending, but for the majority of claimants there is no money available.

Authorities argue that parents should vaccinate to protect society as a whole from epidemics. But if the vaccines offered immunity then only the unvaccinated would become ill.
(“How are vaccines made?” From the book by Neil Miller, “Vaccines: Are They Really Safe and Effective?” available at: Vaccines: The Truth Revealed (http://www.odomnet.com/vaccines/introduc.htm)

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Dr. Fred Klenner, M.D
Dr. Fred Klenner, M.D. has linked the increase in leukemia to the polio vaccine:

"It is hard to imagine a more fundamental right than being able to determine what is done with your own body and the body of those for whom one is personally responsible. To force everyone to follow the dictates of one particular group is tyranny. If you believe they are wrong and you still submit to them, then you support tyranny."

( “Vaccinations Law based on Myth” - Health Freedom News 1983)

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Harris Coulter and Barbara Fisher
Mass vaccination for smallpox was discontinued in the U.S., as much because the vaccine caused brain damage and death as because the disease had virtually disappeared. Since a repeal of the draft in 1970, mandatory vaccination remains the only law that requires a citizen to risk his life for his country.

A two month old baby can get the same amount of vaccine as a fifty pound child entering kindergarten. Some of the trials are made on children more than 14 months old - but then extended to those who were 2 months old without adequate toxicity tests being done. Allergic children react more strongly to vaccinations and vaccines seem to heighten existing allergic sensitivities.

“Political immunology” is the practice of applying political pressure through the press and other media for political ends, sometimes with incomplete and distorted versions of medical facts, often discrediting anyone who questions the safety of the vaccine. These political immunologists are quick to minimize the problem and convince the general public that things would be much worse without the mandatory mass vaccination program. If a doctor openly disagrees with medical procedures, he then risks being ostracized by his colleagues. Editors tend to print pro-vaccine articles in medical journals, which can only be challenged in letters - they will not print anti-vaccine articles.

However, mothers are getting smarter and scare tactics are not convincing them that the vaccines are safe. Parents must evaluate the role they play in allowing doctors to inject their children with a vaccine about which so very little is known, and permitting elected representatives to pass laws that require it.

At least 7 childhood vaccinations are legally required - and more on the way if the Center for Disease Control (CDC) has its way - for admission to school, which assures drug manufacturers a stable, ready-made market. There is also a tremendous market for yearly flu vaccines. Often when vaccine experts leave the government they either go to a related medical field or go to work for a pharmaceutical manufacturer.

The name “Hot lots” is given when particular ‘lots’ of vaccines are toxic (defined by 10 reports of illness, or 2 reports of seizures, or 2 reports of death), and if it is ‘hot’ then it is supposed to be withdrawn from the market. The problems of removal are because many doctors do not report reactions or keep a record of the manufacturer’s name nor lot and batch number of the vaccines they purchase and deliver. Other ‘lots’ drawn from a defective batch cannot easily be found. This book not only gives examples of how minimizing the dangers of serious reactions by officials has resulted in injury and death to children, but also the added risks of vaccines when there is a lack of proper temperature control.

Physicians occupy a privileged and respected position in our society and they must assume extra responsibility for what they do and say. Doctors are discouraged from doing research on the risks of vaccinations because of the impossibility of getting the research published. The editorial boards of reputable journals are full of vaccine policymakers, recipients of federal vaccine-research grants, and paid consultants to vaccine manufacturers. When refusing to print anti-vaccine articles, the editorial boards need only to say that the research is below “accepted standards.”

What are we doing to our children? We do not know!
("A Shot in the Dark," Harris Coulter and Barbara Fisher, 1991.)

[dave_rusin]

Brett,

Thank you for your post. My intention is not to dis anybody, but to have an honest discussion about the vast amounts of information which dispel the prevalent myths surrounding this hotly contested issue.

Sincerely,

Dave

[Vbrown]

Some thoughts on the "Myths" listed under Alan Phillips;

Myth #1 "Vaccines are completely safe". This is what is known as a Straw Man arguement.

Myth #2 1989 outbreak of measles is referenced to show that vaccines are not effective. However in Clin Diagn Virol. 1996 Feb;5(1):37-42, PCR is used to indicate that the measles contracted in the individual are of a different strain that what was vaccinated for. Vaccination theory is built on specificity of antibodies.

Myth #3 Holds a great deal of truth. Sanitation and hygeine are vital for any public health program. Studies of vaccination rates for the third world are shaky at best however. Large lots of polio vaccine are left to rot in the sun in Africa due to a rumor that vaccines were contaminated to cause AIDS as an over arching plot to murder Africans. Actual rates of delivery of vaccines are not accurately kept.

Myth #4. Berhing's experiments in 1890 follow strongly Koch's postulates. Guinea pig is given subleathal dose of diptheria toxin. Later survives otherwise lethal doses. This immuinity is then transfered by injecting the serum of animal A into animal B. Animal B displays same immunity.

Myth #5: smallpox: 30% mortality rate. (and when have we seen that one around?) Mumps may not be a killer, but is upwards of a 35% sterility rate for males acceptable? Measles complications include pneumonia, encephilitis, myocarditis, glomularnephritis. All of which may not kill, but leave life long ailments. 1941: 894,000 cases. 2000: 86 cases.

Myth #6 Counterpoint:
A' Department of Microbiology, School of Medicine, Aristotle University of Thessaloniki, Thessaloniki, Greece.

Here we report the results of a retrospective study on the epidemiological characteristics and genetic relationships of the virus isolates responsible for the last poliomyelitis cases in Greece. The last wild poliomyelitis case in Greece was detected in 1996, and the last vaccine-related strain was isolated in 1998. The whole of Europe, including Greece, is now considered to be polio-free. J. Clin. Lab. Anal. 18:296-298, 2004.

Myth #7: Certainly elements of truth in this arguements. Death due to albumin reaction, horse serum incompatability etc. are all worthy of note and concern in the "short term". However, "correlation does not equal causality". Reaching that far back into an individuals history to make the tie in is extremely difficult to do with any certainty. Doesn't mean it shouldn't be investigated, only that rigor must be maintained.

Myth #8 Loaded question. Certainly it's not the only option for individuals. Many children are immuno-compromised and cannot handle even a limited exposure. However, vaccination works very well in a public health scenerio when millions of people must be taken into account. If they had all the answers, then no one would get sick. Since many do, then the system must still be worked on.

Vince

[dave_rusin]

It is not my concern to convince you of anything, as you’ve demonstrated your lack of sincerity to honestly engage this material. The vast and ever-growing body of anti-vaccine research speaks for itself. You should know that I hold no grudge or ill-will towards you for your disrespectful behavior. Actually, I should thank you. The positive outcome of this little debate is that readers of this thread who are seeking honest answers about vaccines who may not have otherwise been aware, may now realize that there is another side of the story that they’ve never been told, and may now set about to do their own research to make an informed decision about such an important matter of health and freedom of choice. So I appreciate the opportunity to put a spotlight on this issue.

Contemporary humans have access to more information than in any time in recorded history. This is both good and bad. Good in that the information we seek is readily available to those who honestly seek it. Bad in that there is so much disinformation, misinformation and outright lies mixed in with the nuggets of good, truthful information. This requires a heightened level of discernment. One good way to gauge information is to follow the money. Does someone stand to make a handsome profit from the information they want you to believe? One need not believe every word of a given website, or agree with every author featured there in order to acknowledge the good and truthful information that is available there. Neither does some erroneous detail negate the entire body of research. Vince has chosen to argue details with which he disagrees and ignores the fundamental issues at hand.

Truth and freedom is not about economics or ego-gratification. Billions of dollars are at stake in this issue. And when billions of dollars of vaccines sales goes up against truth, then truth will always be on the defensive. Anti-vaccine research does not enter into mainstream discussion, and parents are not informed of the dangers to their children’s lives and health posed by vaccines. And yet these people are forced to receive injections without their informed consent and often against their will. This alone should raise serious red flags, as should the fact that vaccine manufacturers are protected through legislation from lawsuits filed for damages or deaths caused by their products.

The dictates of authorities should never be blindly accepted. Many people (though not all, of course) in positions of authority have self-serving agendas often at the expense of the best interests of those whom they presume to have authority over. Removing someone’s free will for what is to be done with their own bodies is perhaps the most egregious form of tyranny.

The information is out there folks. Arm yourself with knowledge so that you can make informed choices for your own bodies and the bodies of your children. You need not accept the unsubstantiated claims of the industry that profits immensely from vaccine sales, or the propaganda of government bodies at the behest of that industry. Disease is Big Business. And Big Business (and its servant Big Government) is the interface and instrument of control for hidden Big Money and Big Money rules the world… for now. Though my spirit tells me the tides are turning. We live in very interesting times.

[Jay76]

Tell me about it. I am fighting with my wife..since she believe in them..."I had them and nothing happened to me or my familly"

I hate drugs of any kind...its tough when people are brain washed..Even family members.

[Dr. Ron]

Here's a little exercise. If you know anyone with an autistic child ask them how long after the child's vaccinations did they notice the behavior change.

Prove anything, no. You will discover an interesting curiosity, maybe a coinkydink or two.

[Charlie]

When I was looking into this question a few years ago, I found it very difficult because both sides of the debate are highly polarized. The anti-vacc people make you believe it is Satan's Blood in a syringe ... but then you read pro-vacc material that methodically & nicely poke big holes into their arguements. Using logic & evidence, they can show where a lot of extremist positions & claims are flawed. The scientific establishment does have its flaws & frauds for sure, but in general you have a reason to give them some trust -- as at least they have the scientific method & peer-review, mechanisms for honesty & truth.

But then you see how certain warnings & issues of the anti-vacc camp (the best example i can recall now is the danger of mercury, preservatives & other garbage to tiny children) finally do get looked at by The Establishment, and its discovered that yes it was a valid problem all along, that had to be changed ASAP. If you'd just blindly allowed your family doctors to inject whatever he wanted, then maybe your child got a big dose of mercury. If you were hip to the anti-vacc issues, then maybe you insisted on a 'clean' brand or abstained alltogether because you were in a low-risk zone for the disease. On the other hand, if you dismiss all the vaccines out of hand, I think you might possibly be in for a very bad time.

But I'll stop rambling here, as its been too long since I've thought about the matter, maybe I'm talking nonsense. I'm sorry to revive this thread, as its very easy to get into unfriendly heated arguments about this stuff. But there's a few too many 'vaccines are EVIL' posts in it, I just wanted to support Vince's comments a bit, if i could. I agree with you that there are both risks & benefits to vaccines (and btw. I didn't get any 'disrespect' vibe in the slightest, you were quite fair i reckon.)

My sympathies to anyone who has to make these decisions -- its very bloody tough to find unbiased discussion of these issues.

[dave_rusin]

Savvy folks are well-aware that so-called "science" is "for sale". There is hardly legitimate science in support of vaccination. Many scientists, just like mainstream journalists, are little more than intellectual prostitutes. If actual science had any real bearing on the matter, and if Big Pharma didn't exert near-totalitarian control over the situation, vaccines would surely be outlawed.

[tsneds]

Vaccination Information People Should Know


The following article was published in Cleveland/Akron Family magazine in April 2001. It offers advice about the safest ways to vaccinate should you decide, after learning all there is, you still want to vaccinate your children.

VACCINATION INFORMATION PARENTS SHOULD KNOW
By: Dr. Sherri J. Tenpenny, D.O.

Once, parents vaccinated their children without hesitation. Now, this procedure is being reconsidered and questioned by many. A recent USAToday article reported that 25% of parents think that their kids are getting too many shots.

On November 12, a program aired on 60 Minutes debating the possible link between the MMR vaccine and autism. This program was reported to be the number one most watched television newsmagazine program for that week, with over 15 million viewers tuned in. An increasing amount of media attention will be drawn to this subject.

Vaccination issues have even gotten the attention of Congress. In April, 2000, US Congressman Dan Burton (R,IN) held congressional hearings to address vaccine safety. As chairman of the powerful Committee for Government Reform, he ordered these hearings after his 2 ½ year-old grandchild became autistic within days of receiving nine vaccines on the same day. The results of these hearings were reported in the Quarterly Congressional Researcher, Volume 10, No. 28., published by the Congressional Quarterly and can be obtained through www.cq.com or through their home office in Washington, D.C.

Reading objective information such as this will help you make important decisions about the pros and cons of the MMR and other vaccinations.

Don’t Vaccines Prevent Illness?
Historically, they did not. A table published in the International Mortality Statistics Report documents that the number of deaths from the diseases that we vaccinate against—polio, diptheria, tetanus, pertussus, (DPT), and measles—had dramatically declined prior to the implementation of any of these vaccines. In recent years, major outbreaks of measles and pertussus have occurred in fully-vaccinated populations of children.

But I Have to Vaccinate to Get My Kids in School Right?
There are several types of exemptions. Ohio is one of only 19 states that have a philosophical exemption, meaning, that you have the right to refuse to vaccinate your child based on your beliefs about the vaccines.

However, making this choice requires responsibility. For example, you need to know about the childhood diseases. You need to know what to do if you choose not to vaccinate, and your child gets the chicken pox or the measles. Do your homework and understand your rights. Learn about the pros and cons of each and every vaccine. They are all different.

What is in a Vaccination?
Nearly all vaccines contain thimerisol, a mercury compound that is used as a fixative. Vaccines also contain aluminum hydroxide, MSG, and formaldehyde in addition to viral DNA, and animal DNA. These substances are known to be toxic in very small quantities.

Why are we injecting these materials into our children when they are only a few weeks old? There are no compelling reasons for the existing vaccine schedules for infants, starting just hours after birth. You should be aware that by following the recommended vaccination schedule, your child will receive 19 vaccines in 14 different shots by the time that he is 6 years of age.

What If I Choose Not to Vaccinate?
Familiarize yourself with the vaccine issues. Remember with choice comes responsibility. You need to know what do to if your child gets sick with one of the viral illnesses. You also need to know the laws in your area. In addition, there are homeopathic remedies that have been studied in Europe that may be vaccine alternatives. Contact a homeopathic physician in your area for more details.

The organization that can provide the best insight to these important issues include the National Vaccine Information Center in Vienna, Va. The group, founded 18 years ago by two mothers of vaccine-injured children, advocates more research into the safety of vaccines and informed consent regarding the risks. The NVIC is located in Vienna, Virginia and can be researched through www.909shot.com. In addition, the PROVE Group, (People Advocating Vaccine Awareness), offers many examples of letters, links, books and other resources. They can be reached through www.vaccines.bizland.com.


Author: Sherri J. Tenpenny, D.O. is the Director and Founder of OsteoMed II, a clinic integrating traditional, complementary, and preventative medicine in Strongsville, Ohio (a suburb of Cleveland) Phone: 440-572-1136. In addition to her conventional medical education and 9 years as Director of a hospital Emergency Department, Dr. Tenpenny has undertaken advanced studies in a variety of holistic medical treatments, and has presented to a wide variety of audiences on these topics.

[tsneds]

Vaccine Fillers and Ingredients

In addition to the viral and bacterial RNA or DNA that is part of the vaccines, here are the fillers:

aluminum hydroxide
aluminum phosphate
ammonium sulfate
amphotericin B
animal tissues: pig blood, horse blood, rabbit brain,
dog kidney, monkey kidney,
chick embryo, chicken egg, duck egg
calf (bovine) serum
betapropiolactone
fetal bovine serum
formaldehyde
formalin
gelatin
glycerol
human diploid cells (originating from human aborted fetal tissue)
hydrolized gelatin
monosodium glutamate (MSG)
neomycin
neomycin sulfate
phenol red indicator
phenoxyethanol (antifreeze)
potassium diphosphate
potassium monophosphate
polymyxin B
polysorbate 20
polysorbate 80
porcine (pig) pancreatic hydrolysate of casein
residual MRC5 proteins
sorbitol
sucrose
thimerosal (mercury)
tri(n)butylphosphate,
VERO cells, a continuous line of monkey kidney cells
washed sheep red blood cells


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Dr. Mercola's Comment:

And you thought you were just getting a viral vaccine. In many cases the vaccine additives are far more toxic than the viral component. This is particularly true for thimerosal which is mercury.

Many will say that thimerosol is not in the vaccines any more. Well last summer Congress "strongly recommended" that the Pharmaceutical Company take the thimerosol out of vaccines....it was not mandated; simply recommended. The drug companies were not told to take the existing lots off the market. The recommendations only applies to new product line manufacture. An unknown amount of vaccine was/is still on the shelves.

Now the twist:


Yes, the new vaccines are supposed to be thimerosal-free, but I'm not sure that they are. In addition, it is unknown when you get a vaccination if you are getting a "new lot" or an "old lot." It is unknown exactly when the new thimerosal-free vaccines went into effect and were available in the market. In addition, if you were vaccinated with an old lot, or vaccinated previous to last summer, you got a dose of the mercury.

NOW the 'big marketing push" for vaccines, in 6 color glossy is "this vaccine is THIMEROSAL-FREE!!!!"....as if they had no idea before last summer that mercury was a problem. And, in response to "YOUR CONCERNS (even tho unfounded), oh faithful followers, we are making a new, and safe vaccine."

[shadow]

i'm glad someone posted the vaccine ingredients cos i just read this discussion for the first time and vaccines is something i have looked at a bit in my observations of what really goes on behind the scenes.

vince you have a great list of credentials, however the biggest problem is that the courses you have studied were likely at college where the medical aspects are funded by and set by a board of candidates that belong to the pharmaceutical industry. medicine at a university level is essentially a degree in becoming a pharmaceutical dispenser and the courses are structured around this.

noone seems to have gotten to the origins of vaccines... i can't remember the exact details but somehow vaccine originates from a latin word meaning "cow", yes, cow.
the original vaccines were taken from infected wounds on cows and then rubbed on a cut made on the human patient. why??? stupidity really, believing that infecting themselves would make them stronger.

also there are innumerable stories of children who fell instantly sick, autism or even died within a short period of being vaccinated.

a couple of years ago before i knew all about this i had the hepatitis vaccinations, they have caused problems in my body that seem to be irreversable :( they are not serious problems (yet?), but it is something i would rather be without.

so thats just me lending my slight weight to the anti-vaccination campaign

[Coach Flanagan]

also there are innumerable stories of children who fell instantly sick, autism or even died within a short period of being vaccinated.

I just wanted to throw out that I've heard great things about the book "Evidence of Harm" by David Kirby on revealing the relationship between mercury in vaccinations and mercury in autistic children. Seeing how this thread never goes away :lol: , I'm sure many of you may be interested

Video clips of the author discussing this issue and other information can be found at http://www.evidenceofharm.com/

[jaloo]

Wow, its great to see this topic show up on the forum.
My wife and I made the decision to avoid vaccines for both of our girls and have never looked back.

Since we homeschool the school/vaccine issue has not been a problem. Our children (8 & 3) have both been free of most of the childhood complaints also, no Asthma, Chronic ear aches, allergies, etc. Luckily we also found an M.D. that supports our choices.

Please, if you know of anyone with young children or anyone about to have such a miracle in their life, share the info on vaccines. It is a hard decision for any family to go against mindless tradition, so support them any way you can. Your effort might just save another child from the dangers of our current vaccines.

Thanks,
Rex

[Glenn Sunshine]

Another thought: even IF the vaccines are safe individually, and it's a big if, no one has ever done a study of what the combined effects are. When I was a kid, very few people had allergies beyond hay fever. Now, a lot of schools won't let you bring peanut butter sandwiches in because simply being in the same room with anything from peanuts can put kids into anaphylactic shock. What changed to make the immune systems so hyper-sensitive? The number of vaccinations comes to mind.

I haven't been through the whole thread, I confess, but there has also been a suggestion that HIV made it into the human population due to the use of monkey tissue as a base for the production of vaccines. We know that the virus is in the monkey population, and this would explain how it made the jump to humans.

[Vbrown]

The word root does indeed share the latin for "cow". The Chinese were first using the ground up scabs from cows infected with cowpox and ensuffilating them when small pox outbreaks would resurface. I guess you could call it "stupid", but that doesn't mean it is.

There is alot more history to it, but it's easily researched.

As to my education being some sort of tool of the Man; you have no idea what I know, what process I went throught to get there and what I am doing with it. What you have is supposition and fantasy with regards to myself, my knowledge and my character.

I'd really like to keep my name out of the rest of the conspiritorial thread. So if you'd all do me the courtesy of not using my name or referencing what you think you know about me we can call it even.

Vince

Tool of the Man; Voice of the Oligarchy

[shadow]

I'd really like to keep my name out of the rest of the conspiritorial thread. So if you'd all do me the courtesy of not using my name or referencing what you think you know about me we can call it even.


certaintly.
and i apologise for making assumptions.

back to vaccinations..... if a person has an optimal level of nutrition and undertakes regular physical activity, etc... all the things to keep our immune system nice and strong, there should be no need for a vaccination.

i'd be very happy when consideration of boosting an immune system through natural methods becomes the norm, rather than trying to alter it with unnatural 'band-aid' solutions.

it may seem that this whole discussion is conspiratorial, but the evidence is out there and it is quite literally overwhelming when you begin to look into it.
if there were perhaps only a few people making such claims, then yes i would be inclined to look upon it all as just radical noise. however the truth of the matter is that virtually any 'alternative' health practitioner will be of the view that vaccinations (along with a whole host of other 'conventional' medicine tactics) are bad news. and when you compare the health levels of such alternative health practitioners to the health levels of your day to day GP... what differences can you see?

for one the GP's i have been to see, and i have seen plenty in my time... all of them look of poor health. stressed out, tired, aged and overall not in great health.
the alternative health pracitioners on the other hand are most often vibrant and energetic, optimistic and looking in great health.

i wonder why?
which would you choose to assist you in your health and life choices?

personally i think i'll go without someone rubbing a bit of diseased cow into me.... or injecting msg, monkey blood, mercury, anti-freeze or any of those other downright weird ingredients that are regularly found in vaccinations ever again and when i have children i'll wait until they are old enough themselves and have access to all the information around to make a choice for themselves whether they want that stuff added to their bodies or not.

[Coach Flanagan]

Autism Rates Fall With The Removal of Mercury - http://www.mercola.com/display/router.aspx?docid=32405