EMS

[Mark]

Has anyone used electronic muscle stimulation to benefit or is it a waste of time and money? I've read research supporting it and rejecting it, any thoughts?
thanks for reading,
-mark

[Scott Sonnon]

To what end?

[Mark]

oops, i thought i posted agian anyway...

i see that my question was pretty vague so here goes again:
is EMS effective for maximum strength gains? or for recovery (it has a pulsating mode that acts similar to a massage) ? I have no access to weights right now but do have access to an EMS machine and i thought that it would be a beneficial substitute.

thanks
-mark

[Doug Szolek]

Mark,
everything I've read about EMS puts it in the recovery of atrophied muscle tissue category.

What might get you similar results but offer the added benefit of mind/muscle coordination is the work of muscle controling. Isometrically flexing a target muscle group for intensity for duration or for rapid repetition. Just toying with this in my "free time" has lead to some very interesting results.

If you're interested, we can start another thread called Sophisticated Muscle Control, and I'll share some of the basics to get you started on this little known branch of strength training.

[Scott Sonnon]

EMS effective for maximum strength gains?
Where's the fun in that? Sounds like a college degree without the 4 year experience and education. :wink:

Great thread idea, Biggie D.

[Brian Martens]

This article might also be of interest:

http://www.t-mag.com/articles/159ems2.html

I know Chrisitian Thibaudeau is also coming out with a book in the next week or so that deals with EMS in strength training.

[Josh Henkin]

I know that strength coach Jay Schroeder has fooled around with EMS in training. Not sure of his desired goal or the results. Coach Szolek, Coach Schroeder performs somewhat similar methods that you are discussing. It would be interesting to hear your views.

Josh Henkin
www.aaptraining.net

[Mark]

thanks for all of the respnses...
I tried ems on thursday, i was really sore the next day and it definately hurts while doing it ( good kind of pain though). i dont know if it helps, ill let yall know
brian,
that article is where i learned the most about ems.

Coach Szolek,
that would be great to hear about "sophisticated muscle control" thanks

I do bodyweight squat, various lunges, one legged squats, medicine ball throws, jumping stuff (people call them "plyometrics" but to me its jumping), and sometimes ill push one of those blocking dummy sleds that football players use. I have access to an ems machine so i thought it might help along with everything else.
So have any of you actually tried it?
peace
-mark

[Scott Sonnon]

Mark, we were trained in both electrical contractibility stimulation and vibration training methods in Russia. The former was experimental and had since fell out of funding and the latter continued into international success in therapeutic muscle relaxation. The major problem with the former regards the total void of a proprioceptive environment for the contractibility (categorized as "uncoordinated contraction"). Unless you have an injury and your PT includes it in your rehab, you're better of focusing on conditioning, recovering, and practicing your sport skills.

[Mark]

Coach Sonnon,
is it possible to make the contraction a "coordinated contraction" by consciously contracting the stimulated muscle groups as the EMS is being appllied?
Just out of curiosity :D , did your ems treatments make you any stronger?

thanks again
-"i think the horse is dead already but i keep beating it" mark

[Scott Sonnon]

An externally stimulated muscle is no longer under the control of the CNS.

Did the EMS I experienced transfer into my fighting and athletic endeavors? No.

[bob_stra]

Coach Sonnon,
is it possible to make the contraction a "coordinated contraction" by consciously contracting the stimulated muscle groups as the EMS is being appllied?

Pre-contraction as an aide to learning?

Yes, but it's no longer a TENS treatment. You've drifting towards biofeedback techniques.

Simple example. Take your right hand and put it in front of you, at chest level, with the palm side facing right (shoulder internally rotates). Take your left hand and place it so that the palm side meets the palm side of the other hand.

Interlace your fingers. Now take that configuration and dip it between the triangle that is made by your forearms, so that the the pinky side of each hand is now facing upwards. (The hands will move back towards your chest)

Have someone point at one of your fingers (without touching it) and see if you can move it. More often than not, you will find that you move the *opposite* hand's finger.

Try it. It's weird :)

Now, have them gently press down on the finger they want you to move. The try to move that finger. Success rate should improves greatly.

That kind of thing, using EMS and ultrasound, is sometimes used in back pain clinics to activate deep, neglected musculature (eg: multifidius)

But it ain't EMS. It's *biofeedback* using EMS.

[Scott Sonnon]

Great distinction, Bob. Well said. I'll be using that trick (definitely at family functions. 8) )

[Mark]

That's seriously amaizng. thanks alot Bob!


-mark

[bob_stra]

That's seriously amaizng. thanks alot Bob!


-mark

I'm assuming you're right handed? (ie: right forearm is on top before inverting hands?)

Try it the opposite way - left forearm on top

Try interlacing your *fingers* the opposite way as well as your forearms.

The effects become even more impressive when you achieve this configuration.

[GuyRazi]

In my Kin. studies I came across a study conducted using a massive EMS machine. (this is not something you buy in a sports store, it was the size of a fridge!). They hooked up national level cyclists to this thing for 15 minutes at a time, I think, for a 6 week cycle.

Interestingly, they could squat more, but were slower, mechanically less effcient, less coordinated and lost as much as 7secs on their time around the track. Its was generally believed that a session before a competition might help someone like a power lifter, but just about any other sport should stay away from it.

[Mark]

the size of a fridge lol

were these "sprinter" cyclists or long distance cyclists?

cool study, thanks for the info

-mark

[GuyRazi]

They did track so I think that's 500m-3000m.

[Mark]

cool thnaks man.

yall convinced me not to use EMS. I just got a new book on med ball training= lots of fun

peace