2 Questions about Warrior Wellness intermediate

[Matt Schwartz]

Hi there,

I am digging the WW program but I have 2 questions: one theoretical and one practical.

Theoretical question:
In the spinal flexion/extension/rotation exercises in WW intermediate one bends and twists the spine simultaneously. This spinal torsion is said to be "bad" by many "authorities". It works great for me and gets the kinks out very well but, to explain it to others I would like more logic to back it up than that "it feels great; try it you'll like it." My explanation is threefold:
1) It is torsion, but with no added load so the spine is strong enough to handle it if it's largely healthy.
2) It gets the kinks out because it moves the spine in ways that it doesn't get moved often.
3) Torsion happens in daily life so it's important to train for some "unsafe" movements and ROM so that you can deal with them when they pop up.
Any comments on all this?

Practical question:
I like WW and joint mobility exercises in general for greasing me up and getting my energy going in the AM. However, I find that doing the 4 corner balance drill at the end of WW does the opposite for me. It is static and seems to tire me out a bit, brings my energy back down, and tightens my hip flexors up pretty good when done. I have to do some more dynamic stretches, especially for my hip flexors and glutes after the 4CBD to counteract this sort of tiring/de-energizing effect. It is the only exercise in WW that does this to me.
So, any comments on this one?

Thanks very much for your time. You guys rock!
Matt

[Scott Sonnon]

Matt,

Could you please state the specific source of this argument? No reason to answer the wrong question.

In the initial stages of Warrior Wellness, the FCBD is so challenging that it can lead to a 'training effect'. Choke back on height of the leg, and duration in any one position.

[Jay76]

'training effect'.

What do you mean???? :roll:

[Scott Sonnon]

Jason,

Most people think that the FCBD is a strength building exercise. However, the goal is to release tension through Performance Breathing, continuous movement and structural alignment. As a result, many people experience FCBD as a pseudo- dynamic tension exercise like a "pistol"

[Matt Schwartz]

Matt,
Could you please state the specific source of this argument? No reason to answer the wrong question.


Hi coach,
I wasn't making an argument but I was asking a question and making an observation. I was probably vague in my questioning so I'll be more specific.

If you are referring to my first question then I'll rephrase it as "if spinal torsion is generally a 'bad thing to do' then why is it ok in Warrior Wellness?" The source of that question is based on the teachings of Pavel Tsatsouline, Steve Maxwell, Paul Chek, as well as others. Please note that I am a fan of this movement as performed in WW and just trying to understand it.

If you are referring to my observation about the 4CBD having a de-livening effect on my movement at the end of WW, then that's based on my own experience having done WW for 3 months. But you are correct, I do treat it more like a dynamic tension exercise with performance goals. It just seems to me that standing and holding one pose for 10 seconds (total of 50 seconds for 5 poses each leg) makes my body kind of wind down rather than wake up in contrast to the relaxed vigor of the other movements. My question would be "how do I keep the liveliness when going through 4CBD?"
Hope this refers to what you were asking. Thanks!

Matt

[Jay76]

Coach

Thats true. The endurance needed to hold the positions, espically in the feet and holding one's leg up is tough, since myself cannot bring up leg up that high, i just concentrate on holding the position while again concentrating on my breathing, trying to breath through the movement.

[JasonE]

Matt -

With regards the 4CBD:

I often do the 4CBD right after my hip circles. Then I continue with the rest of the Intermediate series and end nice and loose. See if that solves it for you.

[Matt Schwartz]

Jason, you're reading my mind. That's what I was thinking of doing after writing this thread. Putting the drill more near the beginning of the lower body work. Thanks for the tip!
Matt

[Connie Brown]

Might sound kind of weird but what I do to un-tense the 4CBD is forget the leg and think about relaxing everything else.

It might sound weird - if you ignore the leg won't it fall down? but, no. It's amazing how much all-over tension I discover this way.

[Jarlo Ilano]

Matt,

The "danger" of combined spinal movements is situation and individual specific. Blanket, generalized statements like "don't twist and bend at the same time ever", are always going to have holes in them.

Here is a little information on the benefit of combined movements, I wrote awhile ago (and I realize that maybe I should update...)

http://www.circularstrengthmag.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=2632

[Coach Hurst]

I just reread your article Jarlo.

Good stuff, man. Good stuff.

[skulver]

The source of that question is based on the teachings of Pavel Tsatsouline, Steve Maxwell, Paul Chek, as well as others. Please note that I am a fan of this movement as performed in Warrior Wellness™ and just trying to understand it.

I think you may have been getting Pavels teachings a bit mixed up, he says not to do bending and twisting with heavy weights, but he has said that doing such movements can be beneficial if you need to do those movements in your daily life/sport. In fact one of the movements he shows on the resilient dvd is a bending/twisting movement using a light kettlebell as a weight. It's been a while since I watched it but I believe he calls the movement the russian hockey deadlift.

[MikeT]

Matt,

I use the 4CBD from the advanced WW tape.

For a while, I tried to make the exercise more demanding as I got better at it by increasing the time held in the 5 positions, up to 30 seconds for each.

Since then, I have reassessed and backtracked a bit. My focus is now on the movement between the positions and not the positions themselves.
Instead of one long hold at each position, I now do a shorter hold - currently a slow 5 count - but do 3 circuits of the five positions before setting my foot down.

The holds do not feel like an isometric exercise now - more like pauses in a long movement sequence. Relaxation of the free leg is important to stop yourself losing your balance as you move, and to prevent hopping about! The supporting leg seems to be stressed a lot more than the free leg (compared to the longer holds), as it is now dealing with more balance issues as I move around it more. The first time that I tried this, I was very suprised at how much harder the support leg does work!

This is just my interpretation of the exercise, but it offers the best results for my after I have tried tweaking it in different directions,

regards,

Mike Taylor

[Scott Sonnon]

Matt,

Steve Maxwell is one of the most vocal and visible advocates of RMAX, especially Warrior Wellness, and uses it to train for his BJJ athletes. Ask him yourself, this question.

I don't know what Pavel's doing, or saying, but I find a lot of problems with his approach. It's not for me by any stretch. Eamonn's most likely answered your issue with him though.

Many Chek grads come here for Warrior Wellness, but I find that some Chek people blindly follow an interpretive veneer of his work without investigating the meaning underpinning his arcane PT philosophy.

Although the health professionals here are, can and will offer you feedback on "arguments" by strength coaches, the bottom line is the empirical evidence of the repeated, consistent and universal success of RMAX practitioners (as well as the resoundingly triumphant reports from their GPs, DCs and PTs).

[Matt Schwartz]

Thanks for all the help guys.
Matt

[Jay76]

They say one should not do bending and twisting at the sametime, yet Pavel does "Windmills".... :roll: :roll:

[JasonE]

I give respect to these other gentlemen.

I am not familiar with all of their methods and teachings by any stretch, but I have see many of their followers enjoy success of various kinds. My own path to recovery from injury started with a brief exploration of Pavel's work before I moved on to find something that could answer more of my questions and meet my needs better.

From my own homework and understanding of how the body works, I've developed a preference for RMAX materials. My success so far has convinced me that I'm on the right path. :D

[Matt Schwartz]

They say one should not do bending and twisting at the sametime, yet Pavel does "Windmills".... :roll: :roll:

Hi Jay,
There has been discussion of this on dragondoor if you search but a windmill is not a bend of the spine. It is a bend at the hips with a straight spine, and only the spine is twisted. You need flexible hamstrings to do this. Picture folding at the hips like in a stiff legged deadlift keeping the spine straight. Then twist one shoulder to the ceiling and one to the floor. No bend in the spine (especially lumbar) when done properly.

Matt

[Scott Sonnon]

Matt,

Generally you will not find agreement among different individuals, because of their disparate Hierarchy of Values. Other individuals promote a different hierarchy. I do not agree with anyone who advises a different hierarchy of values listed in the above article. It does not mean that you will not achieve the goals that they claim you will achieve. It means rather than we have different priorities.

To understand where RMAX comes from read: http://www.circularstrengthmag.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=4605

Check with your health care professional. You'll generally find that they promote a health and longevity value prior to all others, like RMAX.

[Charlie McCarthy]

I learn something new about exercises all the time, I love it. Great topic on the 4CBD, I think I'll look at it through some different shades of thought. Every exercise I see now gets put under the RMAX lense for fine tuning investigation for breathing, movement and alignment. RMAX and Coach Sonnons research and development jive with me the most which is why I still lurk here 8)

Charlie

[Kempie]

Hi all, great thread with some great tips and suggestions.

Would just like to say a special thanks to Connie for her suggestion about not focusing on tension in the leg but every where else. Incorporating this into the FCBD really helped me.

Thanks very much.

Cheers, Kempie.

[JasonE]

The 4CBD has always been a challenge for me, due to excess fear-reactivity regarding not having both feet solidly on the floor. For me, skating, skiing, rollerblading, etc. have always felt unnatural and have been difficult to learn.

I have good days and bad days with the 4CBD, but have noticed that the good days are becoming more consistent than the bad days. This seems to be one of my tougher personal challenges, right up there with resisting junk food. :?

Thanks to the rest of you for sharing some new ways of looking at it... I never stop learning ways to improve my practice. :!: :)

[SteveB]

In Hatha Yoga, there are a number of torsion poses. Generally, one is warned to extend as you twist, to avoid griding of the vertebre. This approach has worked for me for 30 years, and I keep a similar thought of "extension" as I perform WW. Seems to be about perfect.

Steve

[KD Jones]

just a note to readers after the fact:

regarding "training effect," mentioned in this thread, it may be useful to refer to the "Body Flow" text, page 59, paragraph 4 - re biomechanical/bodyweight exercise.

[champagne]

If it's alright I'd like to post a couple of thoughts on the 4cbd as I just hit this thread. First, I've always approached it as it is called, a "Balance" drill. Being at the end of the routine it allows me an opportunity to integrate all of the joint mobility I have been opening up with the previous steps. Balancing on the ball joint of the leg requires a very sophisticated cordination of selective tension and is a core skill to graceful effective motion for us two legged creatures. As Connie points out it is a wonderful opportunity to discover tension as the body braces to maintain balance rather than smoothly co-ordinating the exact tension needed at the exact points in an ever shiftiing dynamic enviornment created by the 4CRD.

As to the loss of energy with it's placement at the end of the routine, for me this occurs if I move the free leg too high and create a bracing action and tension chains throughout my body. (some days too high is much loweer than others) When I lower it down things relax and the drill works for me. Baby steps, I'm not much of one for pushing the envelope, but instead endeavor to find the edge and work just beneath it. My experience is that then the edge expands out from me and I'll need to expand out to find it again. Approaching the 4cbd this way I end up energized , loose and ready to rock.

[JasonE]

If your joint mobility is impaired, the underlying problem will also impair the stability of one or more joints. The good news: Your ability to stabilize improves as your multijoint mobility improves.

I've been resolving some old injuries to muscles and connective tissues in my hips. The 4CBD has always been a challenge for me, as one side is much more affected than the other. However, I have worked from holding onto a chair in the Basic version to freestanding through the Advanced routine. This result has come from working with both Warrior Wellness and Body-Flow movements.

I haven't put any time into practicing high kicks for nearly 3 years. The other day I walked up to a freestanding target and kicked it at various heights without difficulty. My head-level kicks were not terribly powerful, but my balance felt better than when I was practicing regularly... and most of my kicks were technically clean. 8) It was great to feel my hips working so much better, and I am looking forward to resuming my kick training in the near future.

[rolandbeauregard]

I found an interesting way to approach 4CBD is to play with the hip position. I found that I locked the hips while trying to hold the positions. I began to relax the hips and try tilting them in different directions. The overall effect for me was to place my weight more firmly in the ground foot and increase my over all balance. This approach also helped me feel my core strength holding the positions rather then relying on specific muscles in the legs or back.