The "S" Word, Supplements

[Doug Szolek]

Looking to shed some light on the varying knuckledragger views of Sports and Health Supplements

What I am interested to see is the views of supplements (from multi-vitamins to andro. and everything in between) from the members of the tribe. List what you've used (if any) the amounts consumed, effects that you attribute to these, and what you've come to learn about them from your experience with them.

So I'll get the ball rolling...

Mult-Vitamins:

Like most of America, I used to take them daily but have since began to rely more on whole food sources for vitamins and minerals, and I'll only take a green source multi-vitamin supplement every few days now just to catch up on any that may be defficient in my diet.

I have always noticed something of an overall energy level effect from adequate vitamin and mineral intake, they just help me work better or rather, allow me to work properly.

Also have used a B-Vitamin complex with additional Niacin during periods of detoxification. Lead to some stinky sweat in a sauna the first few days as the surface level toxins were expelled.

The Fat Burning Stack (20mg Ephedrine, 200mg Caffine, 300mg Asprin):

Took this one for a period of 3 months way back in my stricktly bodybuilding days; 3 doses a day every day. Quickly became addicted to it (which is odd cause I'm not generally very addictive), and this lead to insomnia, shakes, and a scary irregular heart beat (there were time when I could just feel my heart drastically increase pulse like it was cramped in my rib cage). It did of course lead to drastic fat loss, due largely to the appetite supressing effect that came with it.

Looking back I wonder how much permanent damage I did to my heart in those three months. It's scary to think about how many healthy people have died on ephedrine. I now take it as a sign that I've still got too much work to do to die :wink:

I will never take this one again.

Creatine:

Another one from my bodybuilding days, creatine did all that was promised for me. I got bigger very fast and stronger too. Took it for at least a year; 5 grams twice a day, and ended it when my buget would no longer allow for it.

Noticed a slight increase my emotional aggresion while taking it but this may have been only due to adolesence and the troubles of living as a nonconformist in a typical American Highschool.

Been thinking about taking this one again.

Protein Powders:

Off and on for as long as I've been playing the iron game. Looking back to the beginning (wherever that is) I am generally able to maintain and grow lean mass much easier when supplementing my protien intake with some of the high quality whey proteins on the market today.

Where I'm at now, it looks like I'll be eating this stuff and loving it for the rest of my time here.

Essential Fatty Acids:

I'm not taking these right now but I think I will be soon. Their effects for me are similar to adequate vitamin and mineral intake. Generally more energetic and my joints feel healthier too. Should go out and pick some up tomorrow.

I know I'm missin' a few but it's gettin' late and I'm finaly getting tired so I'll come back with them as I remember.

Ok Here you go

Multi Vitamin/mineral

Have done everything from really high "life-extension" type program in the 70s to none. Now do a pretty tame multi from Vitamin Shop. Ellis is big on minerals - I take a coral calcium, and a potasium/magnsium in addition to whats in the vitamin. Particularly important for low carber's to supplement since variety suffers.

Protein Powder

Take 1 25 gram shot a day of pure whey with water. This is my in between lunch and dinner shot at around 3pm. Heavy protein drinks made with milk etc...make me feel really heavy+proteins not that big of a concern on a low carb diet. I do not believe that some is good/more is better. I think 1 gram per 2lbs of body weight ie 200lb guy=100 grams a day is plenty.

Fat Burner's

Never noticed that they did anything for me when I tried them. I am not even allowed to have caffine now, since a 2000 atrial fib, no problems, never happened again, so these are off my list for ever. Rant - I think these are terrible - another way for people to have an excuse to avoid shutting the old pie whole.

Creatine

Works like a charm. Have done it 4 or 5 times for 3-4 months. Gain 6 lbs and feel strong at the beginning. Just not comfortable with what the long term might be. Haven't done it for a year. I think it has no effect on training for something like OCS/GS type events. Also, and this could be in my head, but each time, after a few months, I thought I started to look smoother. ie the cuts faded a little. I think once you are intra-muscularly saturated, you start to hold a little water inter-muscularly - just my observation.

DIM - diindolylmethone

This is something Maxwell and I are experimenting with. I emphasize experimenting and I can't recommend it. It is supposed to improve the estrogen/ testosterone ratio without the ill effects of adro type supps. It is not a "steroid like" thing - like andro was supposed to be - which i would never touch. It is in fact, kind of the opposite. It prevents the bad estrogen, yes boys we all have it, from binding and competing with the testosterone you have - it doesn't "boost" anything. In fact some body builders are trying it as way to reverse the damage done by the steriods - gynomastia - which is caused by the increase in free estrogen brought on by steriods Good luck with that one boys. The alleged good side effect is that it may be good for the prostate - that's it's medical use. I absolutely think it has made me look harder. Again - can't recommend you do anything more then read about it.

That's it. Never been much of a supp fiend. Beyond a multi and a little protein i think it's never more then a last 5% kind of thing.

Bill

[Vbrown]

Doug,

I doubt very seriously you did any perment damage to your heart. Since that would involve some sort of death of the cardiac muscle, you'd know it.

And for the record, the chinese figured out that using it for weightloss is bad a few hundred years ago. But once real amphetamines came on the market, folks forgot and are having to re-learn.

As for me:

Whey protein: I find it cheap, cooks well and makes a pretty tasty shake. Nothing too fancy.

Flax seed oil: I throw it into the shake and enjoy it quite a bit, actually.

Ca,Mg, Zn tablet: I have never slept better since I've started taking these about 1 hour before bedtime. And cheap too.

Phosphotidalserine: I'm experimenting with this one. I've read the monographs on it for brain function and with being in school, I need all the help I can get. There seems to be some indication that it can be useful for muscle building as well, but we shall see.

I've got a few others waiting to take their turn, but I just want to see how I feel with this list as is.

Vince

[admin]

Doug,

Here's my list of supplements, skewed towards superfoods and tonic herbs, looking to facilitate mental sharpness, lean muscle mass, and immuno-potentiation. If I'm taking something every day, or at least on and off for the rest of my life, I want it to have a long history of benign usage in the human genome.Bee Pollen
Deer Antler
Ginseng Root
Reishi & Cordyceps
Seasonal TCM tonic herbs
Peruvian Maca Root
Green Powders (multi-veges & herbs etc.)
Fish OilAfter decades of experimenting with various vitamins, minerals, herbs and potions, I've settled into the above as a foundation. For snacks I throw in organic jerky meats, nuts, and the odd piece of chocolate. :)

[winstrom]

Bill, how much diindolylmethane are you taking? What brand?

Thanks, Mike

[Rufus]

The only vitamins/supps i take right now are Vitamins C and M, "Caffeine" and "Matein" (drug in Yerba Mate).

Rufus

Mike

I'll look at the bottle and get back to you. It's the amount that used in the study Ellis told Maxwell about. Don't have the bottle with me

Bill

Mike

Natures way brand

400mg a day

Steve takes another brand that he orders on line.

Bill

[winstrom]

Thanks Bill. Mike

[pookaboy]

Couldn't pass up comment on this forum. Here is what I am taking or have currently taken:

Pharmaceutical Grade Fish Oil: I have just started taking this one a couple of days ago. I had the good fortune to meet the doctor who is really pushing this out, Dr. Dave Woynarowski. I have to say that so far I have seen a few improvements in things, like less DOMS for instance, however, it is still too soon to provide dramatic comment on this. If you are interested in this here's the link:
http://www.drdavesbest.com
You can read up on PGFO there on all his studies and even order it if you want. When I met him, a lady that was there with me was also able to really grill him on the topics and provided me with some valuable input because she was a PhD in Pharmacology. She confirmed to me that he was all that he was cracked up to be and NOT some quack. He is also very passionate about this will provide you with all kinds of information. Very fascinating stuff that has a high value in my diet.

Standard Multivitamin:I am currently just taking a "One-A-Day" multivitamin for men. Haven't found anything that is better.

Echinacea:I am taking this in the mornings for the obvious reasons that it has for combating disease. I have noticed that when I don't take it I tend to feel a little worse druing the day. It also helps get rid of colds and stuff.

Valerian:You want to get nice and comfy right before you go to bed? Just pop a pill of valerian and you will relax quite nicely and sleep well too! Love this stuff because it helps me relax so nicely at night.

ZMA Nighttime Formula:The other sleep agent that I have used on occasion. I have noticed that when I take this stuff in the evenings before I do exercise the next day, I have a little more power to exercise. I also used to play racquetball early in the mornings and noticed a significant increase in performance and strength when I played the following morning after taking ZMA the previous night. Plus, I slept really well too.

Creatine: The wonder supplement that, of all the crap out there, actually works has been somewhat of an ambivalent supplement for me. I actually packed on muscle with it, but haven't been able to lose it as easily as I wanted. With Creatine believe the hype because it is one of the few supplements that actually works. However, educate yourself on its uses too. A good resource for this is the following book if you can get it:
Ray Sahelian, M.D., and Dave Tuttle, Creatine Nature's Muscle Builder ISBN: 0-89529-777-9
When I started up on Creatine, this was the book that filled a lot of my knowledge gaps I had regarding creatine and its usage.

Argentine Liver Pills: I don't care what anybody says, LIVER SUCKS!! But, these were at least stomachable when I took them without that funky nasty liver taste that used to gross me out as a kid. These were in the noncommittal category because I really didn't notice any difference in anything when I was taking them. They, for me, fell in the 6-of-1-half-dozen-of-another category, so I used up my bottles and got rid of them. The pills were rather large too, kinda horse-like in size.

Protein Powders, Bars:All I have to say about this category can be summed up in one word: SH*T! I haven't had one protein powder that had some crap in it like Aspartame or some other chemical that made it taste heinous in some fashion or another. Plus, aside from getting more "bulk" (read fat) on my body, I had to stomach this crap. In fact, one of the reasons why I pretty much forsook the weightroom and converted over to Kettlebells and Clubbells is because of how foul this stuff tasted after I worked out, it made me want to ralph like this face--> :oops:! So, if I want protein now, it comes to me the natural way via beef, foul, etc. If powder was bad, protein bars were ever worse. They all tried to taste like candybars so people would eat them, but you can only flavor s**t in so many ways. And no matter what you put in it to hide the flavor, it still ended up tasting like s**t-flavored (insert-your-flavor-noun-here). I am also a vicious sweet-tooth, so protein bars never hacked it at all for me. They'll never be as good as a Butterfinger, Baby-Ruth, Reeses' Bar, etc.

I have to say that some of these have been better than others and the results can be different for different people. The above is what I have taken. The one that is looking the most promising so far is the Pharmeceutical Grade Fish Oil. However, I have also noticed that all of this does tend to cause pecuniary burdens because of the investment one has to make in these since they are not cheap! Anyways, that's my $0.57 on the matter.
Tom

[James Boelter]

Pook, this is just a suggestion; I tend to bridle at people's tendencies to treat echinacea as a 'natural and healthy' herbal alternative, when actually it is a very aggressive assault on the body's immune system...the healing effect that makes a cold, etc., go away, is actually a type of allergic reaction to the echinacea. It works pretty well in the short term, but using it every time you get a cold isn't the wisest of ideas (any more than using the caffeine/ephedrine/aspirin stack to cut fat on a regular basis).

I would like to suggest instead that you consider astragalus when you feel a cold or flu coming on. Astragalus is more of a 'tonic' herb that works by building up the immune system, rather than by kicking it in the nuts the way echinacea does...you can boil the root for 10-15 minutes to make a tea, or suck on a slice of the bark as you would a lozenge...it has a mild vanilla taste (it won't make you forget Breyer's vanilla ice cream, though). East Earth Trade Winds sells superb quality sliced astragalus for a very reasonable price...I am sure you would be happy with the quality of any Chinese herb you ordered from them, especially their cinnamon bark and ginger root (cinnamon tea is one of the great secrets of herbal medicine...it tastes great, and the cinnemaldehydes will make you love the world!)

This is 'Herbology 101' level info, based on about 6 months of weekly classes with a woman who trained with a Master Herbalist, so take the advice for whatever you think it is worth. (But do try the cinnamon tea, from cinnamon bark from EETW...you'll love it!)

[pookaboy]

Jim,
Thanks immensely for the information. The stuff on Echinacea is only anecdotal info that I know on it and my experiences with using. I will definitely put Astragalus into usage. I am not a "herbalist" more of a geek than anything.
Tom

[sin_goodfellow]

Stuff I take on a regular basis:

Whey Protein(Vanilla): This seems to be the best protein for me, since I can drink milk like crazy, ect. I would definitely say it has aided me in growing stronger. I usually take a double serving(39-40g of protein)as soon as I get back from practice, it does not taste all that bad to me. The Met-Rx sample packets I tried actually tasted pretty good.

Multivitamin: I take these just to try and get a full spectrum of vitamins.

Magnesium(500mg): I would say taking Magnesium has definitely had an effect on my explosive power ect.

Zinc(50mg): Same as the Magnesium above and the two combined have definitely seemed to boost my testerone and general strength/endurance.

I would recommend supplementing with these over anything else because most people do not get enough of either according to most nutrient profiles.

L-Glutamine powder(spoonful): Definitely works for me, especially in the DOMS reducement area. There is a marked difference between the way my muscles felt the day after crew practice before I started taking this particular supplement and now. It did cause a wierd side-effect initially. It would actually make me tired and quite sleepy. However, I attribute this to the fact that all the exercise I had been doing had sapped my reserves and after awhile the sleepiness went away.

VitaminC(1000mg): Awesome for the immune system and everything else.

Stuff I take off and on:

B vitamin supplements: Very useful to have alot of when you are intaking a large amount of protein and in general. I especially like Odwalla's B Monster.

Green Tea/Yerba Mate: Bought some of this stuff, drank it for awhile, seemed to be good. Just sort of stopped taking it. Probably start doing so again, the jury is still out on this one.


Everything else i've seen seems like a gimmick or worthless for other reasons. Concerning Creatine, one of the guys on my Crew team who was in the Army says they have disallowed Creatine because it causes dehydration and they had people passing out during normal days.

Respectfully,
Jesse Wells

[Cilian McHugh]

My advice (and take it as just that) is that anybody taking any kind of Mineral supplementation would be well advised to ensure that it is colloidally suspended. If you can get your hands on work by Joel Wallach jump at the opportunity.

[Flatland]

My supplement practice seems much like many of you. Actually, I consider all of the supplements that I take today really just food.

Protein powder- I buy this bulk from Proteinfactory.com, you can make your own blends including the flavor and sweetener. It comes is a sack, so I don't have empty containers all over the place. I don't use a lot - a scoop in my morning oatmeal, and possibly a shake later on.

EFAs- Flax oil and ground flaxseeds. Also fish oil, if I don't eat any salmon that day.

Multi vitamin - I take one most days, but I really try to get my vitamins and minerals from whole foods.

That's all for the last couple of years. However, in years prior when I was doing more bodybuilding style training :oops: (not knowing any better), I tried numerous others.

Creatine - The first time I tried it, I gained like 6 pounds in five days, and was noticeably more muscular. After the first time, I never gained the cell volume like that. I did a couple of tests on myself though, and found that after loading, I could add several more reps between workouts than I could before loading. Might try this one again sometime.

Fat burners - Did these during short phases when trying to lean out. Didn't have any ill effects, but this year I am leaner than I ever was using them, so I'm not sure how much they really helped. There is no substitute for a good diet. Won't ever use them again, health and performance is what I focus on now.

Testosterone boosters- Yeah, several years ago I tried these. :oops: They were very effective at leaning out my wallet.

That's it. I think my money is best spent on whole foods and educational materials, not supplements.

Scott Hagnas

[Charlie McCarthy]

Since Dave started the topic of HSO's in another thread it sparked me to post the supplements that I've been taking:

Primal Defense from Garden of Life: Extremely potent probiotic from soil organisms. Finally made my stomach feel better. This one is a keeper and I can see myself taking this for a long time. 12 a day.

Living Multi Men's formula from Garden of Life: Whole Food multi vitamin and mineral supplement. This is the best one I've taken and plan on sticking with this one for awhile. 6 a day.

RM-10 from Garden of Life: 10 medicinal mushrooms all pre-digested using a fermentation process. This one is expensive so as soon as the bottle runs out I won't be taking this one for awhile. The multi vitamin contains the medicinal mushrooms anyway. 6 a day.

Goatein from Garden of Life: The only predigestied protein powder from goats milk out there. Comes from organic goat's milk and is minimally processed. Everyone who checked out 'The Meatrix' should keep that in mind when they look for protein powders. Just started taking this one again and will probably take 1 tablespoon in full fat coconut milk 1 or 2 times a day.

Carlson Labs Cod liver oil: I usually take 1-2 teaspoons a day. Great source of omega 3's and vitamins A & D.

Omega-zyme from Garden of Life: Great digestive enzyme product that I take with meals and snacks. 1-4 with every meal or snack.

Super Seed from Garden of Life: Whole food fiber product - nuff said. 1-2 tablespoons a day mixed in water.

In the past I've made the mistake of spending too much money on supplements and not enough on good food :roll: So for now, I'm sticking with the multi vit/min, probiotic, enzymes, cod liver oil, fiber and goat's milk protein powder. Great book to read is 'Patient Heal Thyself' by Jordan Rubin who is the founder of Garden of Life. The book has changed the way I eat.

Charlie

[tgerstmar2]

Hey folks,
New to the board but thought I'd chime in here. I've taken a number of classes in herbalism and nutrition, am in the application process for a naturopathic doctor program, and have a whole shelf full of books on vitamins, minerals, and various supplements, plus I have to admit it up front, I'm a supplement junkie, I love taking supplements. I feel kinda weird at the big three meals if I don't have a few pills to take with my food. Based on what I'm looking into at the time I'm usually cycling something into or out of my supplement regime which means I have and do spend WAY too much money on supplements. Here's a few of the supplements I've used.

Multi
'Perfect Blend' by Super Nutrition. A good quality multi by a high quality company. I really trust their stuff. I urge everyone not to skimp too much on their multi-vitamin. Buying cheap supermarket pills is a total waste of your money as they use the poorest ingredients at the most worthless doses. Personally I recommend everyone take a multi as a basic insurance policy to ensure you're getting a broad spectrum of nutrients. There are lots of good blends and tons of really horrible ones. I recommend the Super Nutrition blend because it's quality and reasonable in price. Recently switched to the version without Iron. 4 a day.

Green
Vitamineral Green by Healthforce Nutritionals. Saw this in a recent Mike Mahler interview, but have been taking this on and off for a few years now. Seems to be a real quality product made by a very earnest company. Packed full of good stuff with the worthless fillers left out. Makes me feel a little better about when I'm not able to get all the veggies in. Kinda pricey and I can't / don't always make room for the expense. 1 Tablespoon day

Additional Vitamin C
Ascorbic Acid powder by NOW. NOW is a quality maker of generic supplements that offer good (not great) products at very reasonable prices. The only problem is finding them, most stores want to stock the shelves with their own junky generic, so often times it's necessary to order online. A professor of mine worked with Linus Pauling (of Vit. C fame) and we sat and talked extensively. He convinced me to massively increase my intake of vitamin C, so being the good guinea pig I am, I have. I currently take 18 grams of Vitamin C a day, which is 300 times the RDA of 60 milligrams a day. Aside from a few bowel tolerance issues in the beginning I haven't noticed any negative repercussions at all. In fact while people around me were dropping from the flu it didn't seem to bother me in the least. 1 teaspoon 4 times a day.

Additional Vitamin E
Mixed tocopherols by NOW. Vitamin E's list of good stuff keeps getting bigger and bigger. The multi gives 400 IU and I take two more, for a total of 1200 IU both for it's own effect and I take it with fish oil to help protect the delicate unsaturated oils. I recommend mixed tocopherols some data showing that just alpha can lead to some problems and is not as effective.

Cod Liver Oil
Can't recommend this enough from a nutritional standpoint. Unless you're out in the sun A LOT in the more southerly climates. Some real data starting to come in now about widespread subclinical vitamin D deficiencies. Full of vitamin A and D and pre-formed omega-3 fattty acids. I've used the brand by Carlson Labs, a tasty lemon flavored formula. Recently switched to a higher quality darker Norwegian brand from Quantum. Tastes like fish so a lot of people won't take it, but I don't mind the taste. Taken with vitamin E to protect it. Been experimenting with between 1/2 to 2 teaspoons a day.

Flax seed
Taken both the oil and the seed. If you buy the oil please buy a quality brand. Unsaturated oils in flax go rancid very easily. Don't skimp on this with a cheap brand. Omega Nutrition makes a very high quality blend. Recently been grinding flax in a coffee grinder and taking it that way. Good oils plus plenty of fiber. Note, you need to grind the seeds if you want to take them that way, otherwise they'll just pretty much pass through your system. Also because of rancidity issues they should be ground and consumed shortly thereafter, for instance don't grind a huge batch and put it use it over the course of a few days. I take 3 Tablespoons once a day.

Brewers Yeast
Very old school but I just finished the book 'The Complete Keys to Progress' and had to give it a shot. Cheap and packed with a good deal of nutrients as well as protein. More a super food like the greens. I found a good brand by Solgar that's quite reasonable and the quality seems good. Taking 2 tablespoons once a day.

Wheat Germ Oil
From The Complete Keys again. Good source of a number of vitamins. Mostly just playing with this one. Interesting taste, but when I blend it into a smoothie it disappears. Quite reasonable though a little harder to find. I have a brand by Viobe. Don't know anything about the company but the oil seems good. I take between one and two teaspoons a day.

Well folks I'll stop here as this post is getting a litttle long. I've got plenty more to post if folks are interested. Let me know and I'll put up more stuff if you'd like.

Thanks for reading.

[Connie Brown]

Thanks very much for taking the time to post. It is SOOO nice to hear personal experience instead of just book stuff and hearsay.