True Believers

[Scott Sonnon]

http://www.roxburytaichiacademy.com/video/Kenetic%20bb.wmv
http://www.circularstrengthmag.com/forum/images/smiles/spit.gif


true-believer syndrome (http://skepdic.com/truebeliever.html)
The need to believe in phony wonders sometimes exceeds not only logic but, seemingly, even sanity.
--The Rev. Canon William V. Rauscher

The true-believer syndrome merits study by science. What is it that compels a person, past all reason, to believe the unbelievable. How can an otherwise sane individual become so enamored of a fantasy, an imposture, that even after it's exposed in the bright light of day he still clings to it--indeed, clings to it all the harder?
--M. Lamar Keene

True-believer syndrome is an expression coined by M. Lamar Keene to describe an apparent cognitive disorder characterized by believing in the reality of paranormal or supernatural events after one has been presented overwhelming evidence that the event was fraudulently staged. Keene is a reformed phony psychic who exposed religious racketeering--to little effect, apparently. Phony faith healers, psychics, channelers, televangelist miracle workers, etc., are as abundant as ever.

Keene believes that "the true-believer syndrome is the greatest thing phony mediums have going for them" because "no amount of logic can shatter a faith consciously based on a lie." That those suffering from true-believer syndrome are consciously lying to themselves hardly seems likely, however. Perhaps from the viewpoint of a fraud and hoaxer, the mark who is told the truth but who continues to have faith in you must seem to believe what he knows is a lie. Yet, this type of self-deception need not involve lying to oneself. To lie to oneself would require admission that one believes what one knows is false. This does not seem logically possible. One can't believe or disbelieve what one knows. (Belief is distinct from belief in, which is a matter of trust rather than belief.) Belief and disbelief entail the possibility of error; knowledge implies that error is beyond reasonable probability. I may have overwhelming evidence that a "psychic" is a phony, yet still believe that paranormal events occur. I may be deceiving myself in such a case, but I don't think it is correct to say I am lying to myself. It is possible that those suffering from true-believer syndrome simply do not believe that the weight of the evidence before them revealing fraud is sufficient to overpower the weight of all those many cases of supportive evidence from the past. The fact that the supportive evidence was largely supplied by the same person exposed as a fraud is suppressed. There is always the hope that no matter how many frauds are exposed, at least one of the experiences might have been genuine. No one can prove that all psychic "miracles" have been frauds; therefore, the true believer may well reason that he or she is justified in keeping hope alive. Such thinking is not completely illogical, though it may seem pathological to the one admitting the fraud.

It does not seem as easy to explain why the true-believer continues to believe in, that is, trust the psychic once he has admitted his deception. Trusting someone who reveals he is a liar and a fraud is irrational and such a person must appear crazy to the hoaxer. Some of them may well be mad, but some may be deceiving themselves by assuming that it is possible that a person can have psychic powers without knowing it. Thus, one could disbelieve in one's psychic ability, yet still actually possess paranormal powers. Just as there are people who think they have psychic powers but don't really have any such powers, there are people who have psychic powers but think they don't.

In any case, there are two types of true believers, though they are clearly related. One is the kind Keene was referring to, namely, the type of person who believes in paranormal or supernatural things contrary to the evidence. Their faith is unshakeable even in the face of overwhelming evidence against them, e.g., those who refused to disbelieve in "Carlos" once the hoax was revealed. Keene's examples are mostly of people who are so desperate to communicate with the dead, that no exposé of fraudulent mediums (or channelers) can shake their faith in spiritualism (or channeling). The other is the type described by Eric Hoffer in his book The True Believer. This type of person is irrationally committed to a cause like murdering doctors who perform abortions or to a guru like Jim Jones.

True-believer syndrome may account for the popularity of Uri Geller, Sai Baba or James Van Praagh, but the term does not help us understand why people believe in the psychic or supernatural abilities of such characters, despite the overwhelming evidence that they are frauds and make their living by bilking people of great sums of cash. Since by definition those suffering from true-believer syndrome are irrationally committed to their beliefs, there is no point in arguing with them. Evidence and logical argument mean nothing to them. Such people are by definition deluded in the psychiatric sense of the term: they believe what is false and are incapable of being persuaded by evidence and argument that their notions are in error.

Clearly, if there is any explanation for true-believer syndrome, it must be in terms of the satisfaction of emotional needs. But why some people have such a strong emotional need to believe in immortality, racial or moral superiority, or even that the latest fad in management must be pursued with evangelical zeal, is perhaps unanswerable. It may have to do with insecurity. Eric Hoffer seemed to think so. He said

The less justified a man is in claiming excellence for his own self, the more ready he is to claim all excellence for his nation, his religion, his race or his holy cause....

A man is likely to mind his own business when it is worth minding. When it is not, he takes his mind off his own meaningless affairs by minding other people's business....

The fanatic is perpetually incomplete and insecure. He cannot generate self-assurance out of his individual resources -- out of his rejected self -- but finds it only by clinging passionately to whatever support he happens to embrace. This passionate attachment is the essence of his blind devotion and religiosity, and he sees in it the source of all virtue and strength.... He easily sees himself as the supporter and defender of the holy cause to which he clings. And he is ready to sacrifice his life.

Hoffer also seemed to think that true-believer syndrome has something to do with the desire to give up all personal responsibility for one's beliefs and actions: to be free of the burden of freedom. Perhaps Hoffer is right for many of the more severe cases, but many of the lesser ones may have to do with little more than wishful thinking.

A study done by psychologists Barry Singer and Victor Benassi at California State University at Long Beach illustrates the will to believe in psychic powers in the face of contrary evidence. They brought in a performing magician, Craig Reynolds, to do some tricks for four introductory psychology classes. Two of the classes were not told that he was a magician who would perform some amateur magic tricks. They were told that he was a graduate student who claimed to have psychic powers. In those classes, the psychology instructor explicitly stated that he didn't believe that the graduate student or anyone else has psychic abilities. In the other two classes the students were told that the magician was a magician. Singer and Benassi reported that about two-thirds of the students in both groups believed Craig was psychic. The researchers were surprised to find no significant difference between the "magic" and "psychic" classes. They then made the same presentation to two more classes who were explicitly told that Craig had no psychic abilities and that he was going to do some tricks for them whereby he pretends to read minds and demonstrate psychic powers. Nevertheless, more than half the students believed Craig was psychic after seeing his act.

Singer and Benassi then asked the students whether they thought magicians could do exactly what Craig did. Most of the students agreed that magicians could. Then they asked the students if they would like to change their estimate of Craig's psychic abilities in light of the negative data they themselves had provided. A few did, reducing the percentage of students believing in Craig's psychic powers to 55 percent. Then the students were asked to estimate how many so-called psychics were really fakes using magician's tricks. The consensus was that most "psychics" are frauds. The students were again asked if they wished to change their estimate of Craig's psychic powers. Again, a few did, but the percentage believing in Craig's psychic powers was still a hefty 52 percent. [Benassi and Singer; Hofstadter]

For many people, the will to believe at times overrides the ability to think critically about the evidence for and against a belief.

See related entries on ad hoc hypothesis, cold reading, communal reinforcement, confirmation bias, control study, Occam's razor, the post hoc fallacy, selective thinking, self-deception, subjective validation, testimonials, and wishful thinking.


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further reading

The Battle for Your Mind by Dick Sutphen
Willis Carto's Hate Network
True Believers and Utter Madness (1995)
Dale Beyerstein's book on Sai Baba
Benassi, Victor and Barry Singer. "Fooling Some of the People All of the Time," The Skeptical Inquirer, Winter 1980/81.

Hoffer, Eric. The True Believer : Thoughts on the Nature of Mass Movements (HarperCollins, 1989 reissue).

Hofstadter, Douglas. Metamagical Themas: Questing for the Essence of Mind and Pattern, (New York: Basic Books, 1985), chapter 5, "World Views in Collision: The Skeptical Inquirer versus the National Enquirer." (Hofstadter reported on the Bennasi and Singer study in his monthly column for Scientific American in February 1982.)

Keene, M. Lamar. The Psychic Mafia (Prometheus, 1997).

Randi, James. The Faith Healers (Buffalo, N.Y.: Prometheus Books, 1987).

Randi, James. The Truth about Uri Geller , (Buffalo, NY: Prometheus Books, 1982).

Raymo, Chet. Skeptics and True Believers: The Exhilarating Connection Between Science and Religion (Walker & Co., 1998).

[mushtaq]

Interesting.

I used to see a lot of the same sort of thing in Indonesia. It is fairly common for Silat teachers of a certain type to demonstrate their tanaga dalam (inner power) by throwing their students around without touching them. I probably have several hours of video of people doing this sort of thing.

I made sort of a study of it the times I was over there, and at least there you have two kinds of this wackiness. One is out and out fraud, the other is hypnosis.

As a hypnotic phenomena it is not that hard to reproduce. I suspect that in the case of the video clip that is what we are seeing. (and a rather creepy example of it as well).

It is telling that most people who do this kind of thing use only their students, who have been conditioned to easily enter into a trance state when the teacher wants them to. Though I have seen a couple of teachers in Java who were good enough at working a crowd that they could pick people out of a group who would produce the right kind of trance state for this.

I have however, never seen this work in a real fight. If someone could use this sort of thing in combat or sport I would expect them to be number one in the UFC or some such.

It's amazing how easily magic is dispelled (no pun intended) at the end of a quick fist. :lol:

[rolandbeauregard]

I copied down this quote in my notes but can't remember the source. However they seem relevant to this thread.

One of the hardest things for anyone to acknowledge is their own susceptibility to suggestion, manipulation and external control. No one wants to admit that their awareness can be manipulated. Yet, without exception, all of the Mystery Teachings tell us that the first order of business in expanding awareness is to overcome the hypnosis, or "sleep state" in which man exists. And, without exception, all of the Mystery Teachings tell us that this is so formidable a task that only one in ten thousand can achieve it!
It is the one who realizes that all of his perceptions must be minutely scrutinized, doubted, tested, examined and challenged who has the smallest hope of escaping the hypnosis!!

[Scott Sonnon]

Roland,
Can you explain in your own words how you see that quote related to this thread?

[rolandbeauregard]

We read an article like the ‘true-believer syndrome’ and we say how can someone fall for this kind of crap. Yet we ignore the fact that we all fall for some crap in our lives. We say things like “I am proud to be an American” when we have no real idea of what an American is supposed to be and have never really studied the history of this country. We claim our religion is the true religion even though we have never even looked at the teachings of another religion. We have all studied with the one greatest martial art and have followed the one greatest health guru etc.. and so on.

When we read an article like the ‘true-believer syndrome’ we should not be shaking our heads and asking, “How can these people be so stupid?” we should be asking “How am I like these people?”.

Every day we are exposed to marketing that is trying to sell us something. We are being sold electronics, food, vehicles, drugs, religion and even war. What these marketers are seeking is loyalty beyond reason. Loyalty beyond reason is why you drink Coke and not Pepsi. Loyalty beyond reason is why you wear Nike shoes instead of New Balance.

We are all true believers in one-way or another. We have a desperate need to belong to something and want our something to be better then all the other somethings. We are all Loyal beyond reason to something. If some well-known coach is trying to get us to exercise with his special exercise system are we going along with it because it looks cool and trendy or are we benefiting from it somehow? If we do benefit and now this coach says that the sky is really red do we go along with that because he is right about some things. Does an untruth sandwiched between two truths make it easier to swallow?

What we need is vigilance, which is rooted in knowledge. Knowledge protects us from becoming the true believer and helps us to become the true seeker.

This brings me back to the quote.


One of the hardest things for anyone to acknowledge is their own susceptibility to suggestion, manipulation and external control. No one wants to admit that their awareness can be manipulated. Yet, without exception, all of the Mystery Teachings tell us that the first order of business in expanding awareness is to overcome the hypnosis, or "sleep state" in which man exists. And, without exception, all of the Mystery Teachings tell us that this is so formidable a task that only one in ten thousand can achieve it!
It is the one who realizes that all of his perceptions must be minutely scrutinized, doubted, tested, examined and challenged who has the smallest hope of escaping the hypnosis!!

We have to see how we are true believers. We have to do the work to become a true seeker.

Coach, I hope this explains the quote.

[Scott Sonnon]

Sounds like the foundation of a good article. :wink:


The sky is whatever color you want it to be. Be a True Believer in yourself.

[Todd]

Mushhtaq, is correct, in that he is just using trancework. I might have been a little impressed with his trancework skills had he hidden his trigger. You'll notice that the subject is passive, and he then goes into the other room, then you hear a thud( possible stomp on the floor) then his subject goes into her little dance. The thud is the response trigger to suggestions previously given to the subject. To the untrained eye it might look impressive, but to me it looked very amateurish.

Todd

[Scott Sonnon]

Todd,

Before navigating the forum, begin by posting an introduction to your background and interests here at RMAX, as per our forum courtesy policy, including your full, real name in your signature.

[Coach Jones]

There's no need to look for a "reason" for this ridiculous thing. "Trancework", yeah, ok?? :roll:

This guy is quite simply trying to con people. The easiest way for him to pull this off is to have a willing partner. She could quite simply be pretending.

There is no need for there to be anything else going on here.

Ockham's Razor, brothers and sisters.

[Scott Sonnon]

http://www.circularstrengthmag.com/forum/images/smiles/iagree.gif

[mushtaq]

There's no need to look for a "reason" for this ridiculous thing. "Trancework", yeah, ok?? :roll:

You are mistaken, I wasn't looking for a "reason" I was making an informed observation on the possibilities.



This guy is quite simply trying to con people. The easiest way for him to pull this off is to have a willing partner. She could quite simply be pretending.

That is one of three possibilities. What makes you think that it has the most evidence to support it?


There is no need for there to be anything else going on here.

Ockham's Razor, brothers and sisters.

Occam's razor, which is "Pluralitas non est ponenda sine necessitate" (Plurality should not be posited without necessity) in fact insists that all three options should be considered.

The idea that it Must be the one answer (even if it is the most comfortable one) insists on too many presuppositions.
That it "MUST" be that answer you favor requires too much of a leap of faith.

[Scott Sonnon]

"The more perfect a nature is the fewer means it requires for its operation."
It seems that we all agree that it is a blatant case of whackiness with no relationship to authentic martial art exploration.

[Coach Jones]

The thing is, there are NOT three posibilities. You are of course entitled to your opinion, but there has never, not once, been a successful test of so called tele-kinetic powers. The JREF will pay one million dollars to anyone who can successfully prove any sort of ability like that and it's never been collected. In addition, in every case where someone has claimed to be able to perform such feats, they have been proven to be frauds and charletons.

I based my opinion on the fact that, at least so far in history, no one has been able to do anything of the sort. It only requires faith when all the evidence points elsewhere.

Either way, it has no value in my opinion other than entertainment, and we'll just have to agree to disagree.

[mushtaq]

The thing is, there are NOT three posibilities. You are of course entitled to your opinion, but there has never, not once, been a successful test of so called tele-kinetic powers. The JREF will pay one million dollars to anyone who can successfully prove any sort of ability like that and it's never been collected. In addition, in every case where someone has claimed to be able to perform such feats, they have been proven to be frauds and charletons.

You know, you should really read my posts before you bother to reply to them. Please do me the courtesy to actually going through them and pointing out to me any place where I even suggested that what we were seeing were tele-kinetic powers, or in any way whatsoever "paranormal"

There are in fact five different possibilities I can think of off the top of my head for what we saw on the video.

1, he is a fraud and she is in cahoots with him and is shilling for him.
This is a good possibility I have seen it a number of times.

2, He is a fraud and has used hypnotic conditioning to predispose the girl to the behavior we saw on the tape.
This is more common that the first option in my personal experience, and it is not all that hard to do.

3, Both the man and the woman believe that they are producing something real but he has conditioned her as in two, he just didn't know that was what he was doing. This would be like the early hypnotists think that the effects they were getting were because of "magnetism" rather than suggestion. This one is not so common but I have seen it a few times.

4, The guy thinks what he is doing is real but the woman is conning him for some secondary gain.
I have not run into this one personally but I could think of a couple of ways it might be this way.

5, It might just be the first case of us seeing something "paranormal". I don't think so, but you aren't going to be able to say anything useful if you don't have this as a place holder.



I based my opinion on the fact that, at least so far in history, no one has been able to do anything of the sort. It only requires faith when all the evidence points elsewhere.

It looks to me more like you based your opinion on a dogmatic belief that the video must be one particular kind of fraud and could not be any number of other kinds of frauds or interesting psychological pathologies.


Either way, it has no value in my opinion other than entertainment, and we'll just have to agree to disagree.

Well it seems to me that one can learn a great deal about the human psyche by studying both the people who do this kind of stuff and the reactions of the people who observe it.

One thing that this whole discussion suggests to me is that Scott's model of "tension loading" might well apply from a psychological as well as a physical perspective.

[Coach Jones]

When you said there were three posibilities, I misunderstood, I guess. I didn't take into consideration every concieveable remote possibility under the sun. My bad. I thought you were saying that he might be telekinetic.

We are not observing a situation occuring naturally. We are observing a video taped demonstration of what this guy claims is telekinetic power. Because we aren't there, we can only judge this thing based on personal experience and science.

I myself, have never seen any example of trancework other than just the good old fashioned power of suggestion, some would say that's hypnotism, and that would be fine by me.

We can hypothesize as to what is really going on here, but why?

i wasn't trying to say that an outright fraud is the only answer, just that it seems to be the most easily explainable and easiest to pull off. Once we rule out telekenesis, we could list a thousand possibilities. I was just trying to say that in my opinion it's a waste of time to look beyond the simple answer IN THIS CASE. Again, it's just a video on the net after all.

[mushtaq]

When you said there were three possibilities, I misunderstood, I guess. I didn't take into consideration every concieveable remote possibility under the sun. My bad. I thought you were saying that he might be telekinetic.

The possibilities I gave you (at least the first three) are not remote, in my experience, they hold moderately equal weight, with the second one being the one I have observed personally most often and is the one that is more likely.

I should point out one thing here. I am pretty conversant with this subject, having taught Ericksonion model hypnosis (medical hypnosis) at the post graduate level for over ten years and made something of an investigation into this sort of thing.
(If you want to check my references just ask Steve Barnes, he was one of my students).


We are not observing a situation occurring naturally. We are observing a video taped demonstration of what this guy claims is telekinetic power. Because we aren't there, we can only judge this thing based on personal experience and science.

I have to disagree about that. We can tell a great deal about what is going on from the video. Try turning off the sound for the video and then just observing what each person's movement is telling you. Where are the incongruities?

The thing is though, you have to approach watching the people from as presuppositionless a position as possible. To the extent that you can (which is a pretty good definition of scientific observation) you will discover useful information about them. To the extent that you bring your own baggage to the observation you do not see what is real.


I myself, have never seen any example of trancework other than just the good old fashioned power of suggestion, some would say that's hypnotism, and that would be fine by me.

I am not sure what you mean by this.


We can hypothesize as to what is really going on here, but why? .

Well, because we can learn useful things by observing people who do this sort of thing. Just observing the patterns of chronic tension in the guy's body can tell you some interesting things about him.


i wasn't trying to say that an outright fraud is the only answer, just that it seems to be the most easily explainable and easiest to pull off. Once we rule out telekenesis, we could list a thousand possibilities. I was just trying to say that in my opinion it's a waste of time to look beyond the simple answer IN THIS CASE. Again, it's just a video on the net after all.

Actually, outright fraud on the part of both people is not the most likely answer, it is just the answer that fits your preconceptions. (which is also information).

The material that Scott has developed, in so far as it works on things like fear-reactivity, and releasing chains of chronic tension in the body, help people wake up from their everyday trances. The study of how people put themselves into such states will, I suspect be useful to anyone involved in this work.

[Scott Sonnon]

The material that Scott has developed, in so far as it works on things like fear-reactivity, and releasing chains of chronic tension in the body, help people wake up from their everyday trances. The study of how people put themselves into such states will, I suspect be useful to anyone involved in this work. Mushtaq, I agree with this.

Although I am a staunch skeptic by education, I do value the power of non-delusional personal faith - in the vein of Crowley, and even William of Ockham himself (who did not apply the principle of parsimony to faith.) This is a mindset cultivated not merely from academia, but also from several years of working with a behavioral scientist and psychophysiologist at a neurobehavioral clinic where we worked with martial art (the integration of breathing, structure and movement) to help the brain damaged and mentally ill.

I admit that I am jaded more towards the pole of pessimism than objectivism with regards to trancework in martial art. From my experience in "RMA™" though the claims are fraudulent (due to misunderstanding the nature of the interaction), the subjects truly 'believe' in what they are performing (as in the Philippine Psychic Surgery).

You are right when you say that one jumps to presumptions when concluding they are defrauding their audience. I am guilty of this presumption as well. I haven't investigated deeply enough to ascertain the veracity of my conclusion. In all likelihood, they are not consciously participating in subterfuge, but rather pawns in a subculture of belief. This would match my experience with the Russian traditions.

Bottom line: I agree that there is valuable study here in learning what seduces people into trancework, in that it can then be deliberately prevented and reverse engineered.

[JasonE]

One thing that this whole discussion suggests to me is that Scott's model of "tension loading" might well apply from a psychological as well as a physical perspective.

Paul and I used to apply some basic theories of crowd control (a form of psychological warfare actually, but it's in how you use it :wink: ) when we worked together in an optical retail setting. The store was tremendously busy most of the time, with occasional lulls. Over time, we learned to facilitate the flow of traffic by identifying and handling certain types of people... who we referred to as "anchor personalities"... first, even if it "wasn't their turn."

We consistently found that when these people were done and left, the rest of the store could be handled and cleared out much more rapidly with less overall stress. Recently we've been discussing this phenomena in terms relevant to CST... and how we'd basically hit on a way of breaking up "social density" to get our job done more efficiently. The greatest weakness of the method is that it only worked if he and I were working together, as one person can't do it alone, and we didn't know how to explain it so that our coworkers could understand. The only thing they knew was that everything worked out better if he and I were scheduled together.

I'd love to see what a whole team of people could do if they could be trained to understand and utilize it.

Sorry if I hijacked this thread, but it seemed relevant to the direction the conversation was drifting.

[Scott Sonnon]

Social density is quite an intriguing direction!

[Vbrown]

I suppose in a vaccum that it's the charitable thing to take this clip at its face and ponder from there.

However, having been in the CMA and IMA for the past 20 years (oh god...is it really that long?) we seem to have the highest proportion of odd-balls coming out of the woodwork. Self-delusional, manufacturing history and making outlandish claims is par for the course.

I've seen hundreds of demos like that one. The participants vary from outright con-men to people claiming to be channeling the spirit of long passed Taoist sages...and they really mean it.

However, the upshot is that it further cheapens the hardwork of martial artists in general and CMA in particular.

Just kinda makes me a little sick.

FWIW,

Vince

[mushtaq]

Social density is quite an intriguing direction!

It seems like a brilliant observation to me as well.

One of the things I keep seeing is the "fractal" nature of the RMAX corpus. There is the suggestion that the core ideas hold as valid regardless if you are looking at "density" at a cultural, social, mental, emotional or physical level.

[Coach Jones]

Please Hijack it! :lol:

Mushtaq,

I don't have any desire to debate you as to validity of trancework and whether or not this internet clip is a valuable or invaluable research tool. It's just not that important to me.

I DO bring baggage into situations like this because in my own experience the martial arts community has been full of fakes, frauds, and charletons. Some good eggs as well, but a lot of people who purposely con their students, steal material from others and pass it off as their own, and outright lie to advance their own agenda. Throughout all that I have been exposed to, however, I have no experience with trancework.

I will also cop to the fact that I do and will always have a knee-jerk, emotional reaction to all things like this when put in a martial context. Unscrupulous instructors, teachers, and gurus that hide behind magic, oobi-doobi nonsense has jaded me.

Just seems we're on opposite sides of this fence.

[Scott Sonnon]

Micro - macro, what must be true in one, must be true in the other. Like the presence of Elliot Waves in the stock market, in the arrangement of stars in a galaxy cluster, in the shape of a nautilus shell, and in the architecture of our lungs, Fibonacci/Phi/Golden Mean is a universal resonance. The fixation or compression of vibration (known as ‘density’) must be equally as universal.

[lafnjack]

I have a question in regards to possibilities. Since the woman reacts to the sound effect when the guy is behind the door (a POOR demonstration at best with such an obvious trigger), what does the following say about possibilities?

Rather than fall BACK in the chair and flail herself towards the wall, she stands UP (going against his "power"), walks around the chair (going parallel to his "power), then flails herself against the wall (going with his "power").

Does this indicate that the hypnotic suggestion may be to simply flail against the wall as a prime objective, instead of imagining a strong force, or does this indicate poor acting?

I'm not sure. This particular abnormality in motion simply piques my interest because it blantantly offsets the idea of a wave of force.

Thanks,
John Simons

[mushtaq]

Mushtaq,

I don't have any desire to debate you as to validity of trancework and whether or not this internet clip is a valuable or invaluable research tool. It's just not that important to me.

Brandon,

As far as I can tell we have not been debating these things at all. The discussion has been about other matters in its entirety.


I DO bring baggage into situations like this because in my own experience the martial arts community has been full of fakes, frauds, and charletons. Some good eggs as well, but a lot of people who purposely con their students, steal material from others and pass it off as their own, and outright lie to advance their own agenda. Throughout all that I have been exposed to, however, I have no experience with trancework.

The poet Jalaluddin Rumi observed "if it were not for fools gold you would not recognize real gold when you saw it".

It is just possible that your experience with the various fakes out there gave you the ability to recognize the value of Scott's work, and that is not a bad thing, given that there are a lot of people out there that do not recognize the validity of RMAX and CST.

As a matter of fact if you ever want to go slumming, take a trip to http://www.bullshido.net/ and do a search for "Scott Sonnon" you will find a thread which starts with a link to the Softwork video clip here and proceeds to make fun of it as an example of fakery in the martial arts.

So what is the difference between them and us? I make the assumption that Scott did not put the video clip up so that we could mock the people in it and have a little fun at their expense, but rather that we could learn something useful from it.

The thing is, some people who lean towards the SICOP (Society for the Investigation of the Claims Of the Paranormal) "Newtonian cloclwork" view of reality exhibit the same sort of "true believer" symptoms as the people who believe in little green men, just about different things.


If you want a simple example of using hypnosis in martial arts check out my article at http://www.circularstrengthmag.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=5382 which is a simple Ericksonian pattern. There is nothing "woo woo" about it, the results can be tested and replicated with ease.



I will also cop to the fact that I do and will always have a knee-jerk, emotional reaction to all things like this when put in a martial context. Unscrupulous instructors, teachers, and gurus that hide behind magic, oobi-doobi nonsense has jaded me.

If a client came to you and said "I have chronic tension in my back and I will always have it because it is the result of a traumatic experience with some unscrupulous people", what would your reply be?


Just seems we're on opposite sides of this fence.

Ya know, that is what I find most interesting about this whole conversation. You seem to think we are on different sides of the fence, but you look at the video and say that the guy's claims do not accurately represent reality, and I look at the video and say that the guy's claims do not accurately represent reality.

The only real difference as far as I can tell is that I don't have an emotional response to what I am seeing and I don't automatically make the assumption that both parties are consciously trying to defraud the public.

How is that opposite sides of the fence?

If you ever find that you have to deal with "true believers" you have to be more flexible than they are. Think about it in terms of requisite variety http://pespmc1.vub.ac.be/ASC/LAW_VARIE.html and you will see what I mean.

[Scott Sonnon]

The Bullshido.com comments are actually quite funny. Those kids may be demented, but they're just trying to keep it real.


"...the guy's claims do not accurately represent reality."
http://www.circularstrengthmag.com/forum/images/smiles/iagree.gif

"If you ever find that you have to deal with "true believers" you have to be more flexible than they are."
True, true.

[Todd]

1. Coach, I have already introduced myself. (April 2004) I have been involved in RMA for @ 7 yrs. now ( even attended a Ross training seminar with Mike and Shawn)

2. I only posted a response to this thread to explain what I observed was happening in the video, and yes his "telekinetic skills" are bull***t.

3. I have many years experience, having been trained in Ericsonian hypnosis, NLP (certified with Richard Bandlers organization) as well as training in the teachings of Dave Elman and stage hypnosis. I put people into various altered states of consciousness daily, whether in a therapeutic setting or for entertainment. This is what qualifies me to reply to this post.

4. Mushtaq, I agree with your responses.

5. Coach Jones, hypnotic techniques are used everywhere in life, on a daily basis, and even you are not able to escape going into a "trance", the human mind just does not work that way. Everyday ,watching tv, listening to music or someone talking,or hell, even reading the Coach's ad copy will put you into an altered state of some level. How you act on this "bombardment of constant suggestions" depends on your values and beliefs, that have been installed in your unconsious mind since you were a young child.

5. Lastly, hypnotic techniqes( read psychological tactics) can be used in a h2h situation with great effect, but you better have the physical skills to back them up or you'll have your ass handed to you really quickly. :shock:

[Scott Sonnon]

Todd, my apologies. For some reason your profile only lists 2 posts; and only listed one post when you posted in this thread. Whenever I see someone's first post outside of the Welcome Mat, it's SOP to give them that head's up. I don't know why your profile is wonky. Must be a Phpbb glitch. Again, sorry for the confusion.

[Todd]

Coach, that number would be correct( hangs his head in shame) :lol: I rarely post anywhere, though I do manage to stop by on a daily basis, depending on time availability. Although I can't promise, perhaps I will write an article on accelerated learning techniques and "flow state" enhancement, that can be used to accelerate one's training. Perhaps, this will make up for my lack of posting.

[Scott Sonnon]

Todd,

Actually it's definitely a glitch. Your status on the left bar under your username notes 3 posts, currently. However, when you view your profile of total posts: http://www.circularstrengthmag.com/forum/search.php?search_author=Todd - it lists 5 posts. Very strange phenomenon I haven't encountered before.

Although I am very much looking forward to your article, your consistent presence on the forum is missed, and would be valuable to everyone.

[rolandbeauregard]

Todd said

Everyday, watching TV, listening to music or someone talking, or hell, even reading the Coach's ad copy will put you into an altered state of some level. How you act on this "bombardment of constant suggestions" depends on your values and beliefs that have been installed in your unconscious mind since you were a young child.


I agree with this statement. The real work is examining our values and beliefs and determining if they are true and serve a useful purpose in our lives. By doing this when we can become really good bulls**t detectors and avoid people and situations that are trying to suck us into the bulls**t.

We have to be sure that we do not become too skeptical or too gullible “To believe nothing or everything are extremes of no value”. We just have to learn to ask the right questions and let the evidence support the answers.

Some questions to ask:

Is it true?
Is it verifiable?
What is value does it have for me?
What is the cost of investing in it?

[Vbrown]

Todd, could you give me an example of this:

"5. Lastly, hypnotic techniqes( read psychological tactics) can be used in a h2h situation with great effect, "

And would you care to elaborate on the differences of hypnotic techniques versus psychological tactics? Or is it your position that they are one in the same?

Vince

[mushtaq]

I frequently get emails asking me about this or that person who is claiming extraordinary powers, the latest one is this url
http://www.innerpowercourse.com/

In light if the recent conversation here I thought it might be fun to point out how this guy cons people into believing that he has all sorts of magical powers.

This one is kind of fun because all it takes is a raw chicken’s egg and he can have fairly skeptical people wondering if he is on to something.

(One of the reasons I am writing this is because a lot of people fall for this trick and the more people that know about it the better the chance of someone being able to explain what happened to someone who fell for it).

If you look through the site you will see that one of this guy’s claims is that he can teach you to make a raw egg unbreakable with your “inner power”.

Usually, it works like this. The “Master” gives you a raw egg, sometimes from a box of eggs you have brought yourself. He has you hold your hand out palm up, then he places the egg on your palm and curl your fingers around it. Then he will make a few “magic” passes and do a little heavy breathing to show you that he is putting the juju on the egg. Then (with some appropriate verbal setup if he is good) he tells you to try and break the egg by crushing it. Wonder of wonders, you can’t do it, he then has you open your hand, takes the egg out of it and cracks it against the edge of a handy bowl to show that there is no fraud going on. Everyone is amazed and gives the guy all sorts of money to learn “inner power”.

Here is the scam, an egg is a natural tensegrity structure, and if you try to crush it in your hand it distributes the stress in such a way that the shell reinforces itself. It is almost impossible to break an egg by crushing it in the palm of your hand, as long as the force is evenly applied.

If you don’t know this, and the “master” is a good showman, you can have the wool pulled over your eyes by simple physics that most people don’t know about.

This guy is probably making a good amount of money off of conning people into believing that this is “magic”.

But then again, anyone who has read this far will never be taken in by this now, and will be able to explain to anyone who has what happened.

(Just a little demonstration on how the truth can set people free)
:D

[kaesa]

I think you guys are overlooking a very simple thing here...

If that power was real, after the guy stomped his foot and came back out of the room, the girl would be holding a big sandwich and a 6 pack, not throwing herself at a wall.

Or not, maybe it's just me.

Joe

[JasonE]

I think you guys are overlooking a very simple thing here...

If that power was real, after the guy stomped his foot and came back out of the room, the girl would be holding a big sandwich and a 6 pack, not throwing herself at a wall.

Or not, maybe it's just me.

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

Rock on, Joe!

[Scott Sonnon]

http://www.circularstrengthmag.com/forum/images/smiles/rotflmao.gif