shoulder problem, with opposit ankle problem

[Mark Dubois]

Hi All,

I emailed Scott this question specifically, and he suggested I post it here for the full benefits of forum participation, so please go easy as this is my first posting :-)

Last year I injured my shoulder in a friendly game of tag footbal. In what seemed like a harmless play, I tripped over my own two feet and landed square on my front shoulder. I heard a pop, and apparently I snapped a smallish ligament that isn't worth having surgery on. Since then I've found that my opposit ankle has been mysteriously unstable and now I am experiencing popping and snapping and some weakness through my left hip as well.

After watching body flow for the first time,and hearing Scott talk about Back Force transmission, I made the possible connection that these could be related?

So, my question here is how to go about regaining some strength and stability or balance between these if indeed they are connected, or what to do to determine if they are?

I don't have clubbells yet, but am planning on buying a set of 5lbs and 15lbs.

Mark

[Scott Sonnon]

Mark, which ligament did your doctor say your tore and what reason did he give you for saying it didn't need repair?

[Mark Dubois]

Hi Scott,

Coracoacromiol ligament, if that's the one I remember correctly. He said that it wasn't a major one involved in shoulder stabilization, so surgery at this point was useless.

I experience some clunking in my shoulder, but nothing that causes pain or lack of strength. Can that have an effect on my opposite ankle though? It was after that when I began to experience balance issues and lack of stability in that area.

Thanks for your help.

Mark

[bob_stra]

Hi Scott,

I experience some clunking in my shoulder, but nothing that causes pain or lack of strength. Can that have an effect on my opposite ankle though?

Mark

Short answer -
http://www.somatics.com/s-m-a.htm

Longer Answer -
Yes, but without seeing you in person, it's hard to tell exactly how. I can *guess* how it *might* feel in *my* body though, so maybe you can get something useful from that?

*bob_stra braces shoulder*

I notice that I have the urge tighten my chest (under armpit), neck (upper neck, near occiput), abdominals (to the side mostly) and lower back. Concominant contractions - ie: spliniting an area from both sides.

I also seem to be tightening my hamstring. While my balance isn't effected as such, it sure is more diffcult trying to initiate any movement.

Bear in mind, that's just me screwing around - I 100% gu-wra-ntee we aren't doing the exact same thing with our bodies.

I'm sure Scott will be along shortly to give you more useful information.

PS: One other tip. Please lay on the floor for a moment. On your back with your legs long. Close your eyes. This will take maybe 5-10 minutes, if you go slowly and are mindful. So don't rush.

On your back -

Assuming you were laying in sand (on the beach), where would be the deepest indendation? Which areas would leave only a shallow imprint? What is the impression left by your lower back. Your head? Spine?

Can you get a sense of how your arms are laying in relation to your spine? Straight by your side or otherwise? Are your palms up or down? Where are your shoulder / s - curled up off the ground? Flat and even?

If you were to try and adjust the position of your hands, how would you do that? Let say, to move your hands from palm up to plam down and vice versa. Where do you move from?

What about the front of your body - what is your stomach doing? You quads? The front of your lower legs?

Notice any areas of heaviness or tension - places that might seem difficult to move.

Try turning your head side to side - which way seems easier?

Then let all of that go. Relax

There are no right / wrong answers to those question. So don't even try. It's an exploration of your pattern with gravity removed. Information for *you* to play with.

A little something to get you familiar with how the shoulder might affect the ankle ;-)

[Mark Dubois]

Bob,

Thanks for the website, althought a little bit over my head :shock: but most interesting.

I'll post my observations to your question in point format

1 - My right foot is facing outwards more than the left, and my right hip seems to be off the ground more than the left.

2 - Shoulders are both level about level in their contact with the ground, especially at the shoulder blades.

3 - Rolling my hands comes from the shoulders.

4 - Stomach is uneven, rib cage on the left is bulging upwards slightly more than the right, or right more indented?!

5 - My left hip joint has a nagging pulling sensation internally and is the most awkward to move in this position. When I raise it off the ground there is tension pulling into low back and deep stomach just about the hip.

What I'm wondering is if it were possible that my tearing that ligament in my shoulder caused bracing in other areas and movement changes, because ever since I've had extremely weak ankles. Your confirmation that this could be possible has caused me some internal sleuthing into what I feel going on during everyday movments and when I use some bodyflow drills.

I'm considering buying some clubbells, and think I can handle the 15lbs. I am interested in gaining more stability in my shoulder as well to help remove some of the clunking I get every so often. I read about Steve Maxwells shoulder rehabilitation program and it sounds like 5lb clubbells might do the trick.

Any insights or possible program design with the clubbells would be appreciated. I'll also make a post in the training forum too.

Thanks for your help guys.

Mark

[Scott Sonnon]

Mark,

Yes, the two are most likely related. Begin with a head-to-toe joint mobility program (Warrior Wellness) to release kinetic tension chains across your body. Research indicates that redundant overlapping dynamic range of motion exercise will release the defensive bracing as a result of your injury.

However, although your doc didn't say you need surgery, he didn't clear this type of exercise. Get clearance from your physician before moving into Clubbell work. Then work on slow, smooth full range of motion work. Begin "unloaded" with Warrior Wellness. Check out Brandon Jones' article in issue 8 - "Mills... Unloaded."

[bob_stra]

Hi Mark

I'm full up with exams for the next little while, so you'll forgive me if I don't have a great deal of time to spend on this board.

Briefly then -

> Thanks for the website, although a little bit over my head :shock: but most interesting.

and hey - that was the simple, plain English version. Wait till you see the gobbledygook version ;-)


> 1 - My right foot is facing outwards more than the left, and my right hip seems to be off the ground more than the left.

Good pick up! It took me almost 2 yrs to discover that little gem. Basically, the rotation of the feet (inwards / outwards) has a strong correlation to the curvature of the lower back. The effect manifests itself differently in laying and standing. You can try it yourself - lay down and stick a thickly rolled up towel under your low back, so that it increases the arch. Notice how much your feet rotate outwards? Now remove the towel ;-)

From what you say here, I think perhaps you might like to look at that Pelvic Clock exercise I mentioned to John on the "Chronic back tightness, muscle pulls" thread.

> 4 - Stomach is uneven, rib cage on the left is bulging upwards slightly more than the right, or right more indented?!

Big tip - that something worth exploring right there.

>What I'm wondering is if it were possible that my tearing that ligament >in my shoulder caused bracing in other areas and movement changes, >because ever since I've had extremely weak ankles.

Most anything is possible. The human body is one weird bit of equipment ;-)

I've been thinking lately of a good metaphor for back force transmission. I recall an example they taught us in myofascial release seminar.

If you grab the middle of your t-shirt (pinch grip) and twist it tight until a little tuft forms, you can get a visual representation of the phenomenon. Notice how the "lines of pull" radiate outwards? Pulling differently on different parts? Extending in all directions? Try grabbing the top left corner of your t-shirt and twisting it into a tuft. What happens? For me - it tightens the head hole, which cause my neck to want to bend to the right, which feeds into my hips via the spine.....etc etc etc

Looks like you got lots to play with. Given the t-shirt analogy, you could start anyplace, but the low back seems to be a good 'un, given the description of what's happening down there for you.

[rbibbs]

Mark, I'm a layman in this field, but with a long history of minor musculoskeletal dysfunctions I've had to solve myself, with work and research, and resources like WW and this forum, just like you're doing.

Some of what you found in Bob's "lay on your back" test (good perceptive job on that by the way) in the hip and lower trunk, are the "kinetic tension chains" to which Coach Sonnon referred. I'd suggest re-reading Dr. Gold's "sensory motor amnesia"... be patient with the new terms and concepts... they'll be very useful as you continue to tune your neuromusculoskeletal performance. SMA refers to much the same state of learned tension imbalance as "kinetic tension chains", and Coach Sonnon's WW is a superb exploratory, maintenance, and rehabilitation program for this condition.

Investigate your hip/trunk/lower back further. Pushing in hard with fingers of both hands at the same time (the symmetry is important), follow the two big muscles that run up either side of your spine, from the pelvis to as high as you can reach. Sore spot? That's Bob's "knotted t-shirt". To some extent, you can rub (iron?) that out. Lacking a willing spouse's fist or heel, you can lay on a tennis ball under a pillow or towel on the floor.

There's another "folk medicine" therapy for back tension, which also requires a willing spouse or training partner... back sitting. (Emphasis that this is a folk therapy, not an accepted medical practice, and not an authorized recommendation by RMAX.) Lay face down, arms at your sides. Your "therapist" faces your feet and sits on your back, slowly at first as you adjust to this unusual load, and direct them to move in directions that cause a sensation of relaxation. I'm 57yo, very lightweight and small-framed, and my "therapists" have typically been 40# heavier; that's my evidence that this is "safe and effective". Stop if it produces pain, don't attempt if you're injured, etc, use common sense and your own judgement, and as with any folk therapy, the risk is solely that of the user.

Don't be too disappointed if these don't work though, some of those stubby little spine muscles are very reluctant to release once they've knotted. Oh, and the sore spot that's tilting your lower back could be between your shoulderblades, or even in your neck. Might be a job for a deep-tissue therapist, or a chiropractor.

Don't fixate on shoulder "clunks" that don't cause pain or disrupt motion. Nominally-healthy, never-injured 17yo girls have "shoulder clunks" with their upper arms above ground-parallel. The general answer to this is simply that we spend 99.5% of our time-in-motion with our arms at our sides, and that's where our best-learned coordination of tension and relaxation is. When we put our arm in an unfamiliar position, that represents a perceived threat to the shoulder integrity, and our instinctive response is generalized overall tension. Then we move that arm, which motion requires coordinated tension in one muscle set and relaxation in its counterpart. The "clunk" comes (again, generally) from tension in the muscle set that is supposed to be relaxing at that time.

WW can eliminate "clunking", it takes a while, and a lot of internal attention to your physiomotor state, which you've already started on (congrats). Clubbell training, if your doctor approves of loaded range-of-motion exercise, will give you yet more "headroom" in terms of smooth, relaxed motion under load, in part by making these "unfamiliar positions" familiar... the perception of threat is gone, the tension is gone, the clunk is gone.



Rick

[Scott Sonnon]

As I have thanked Bob, I now thank you Rick for such generous and thorough suggestions to CST members. Well done!

[bob_stra]

>Some of what you found in Bob's "lay on your back" test (good >perceptive job on that by the way)

I'll say. He impressed me ;-)

Mark, seeing you did such a good job down there, you might like to investigate more floor kinetic chains. Basically being on the floor helps focus the effects of gravity so that it's more easily recognisable.
I find leg threading offers a unique method of exploring the low back : ribs relationship. Tons of other good stuff.

>There's another "folk medicine" therapy for back tension, which also
>requires a willing spouse or training partner... back sitting.


TTT for back sitting!!
If you want to explore this some more, Zen or Oshai (sp?) shiatsu features a fair bit of this kind of thing (IIRC).
Ditto Thai Massage.
Actually, Body-Flow™™ folk might get a kick out of acrosage, if you can ever find it.
Here are the first pages I found - http://www.acrosage.com/
http://www.davinci-days.org/archive/Old-stuff/acrosage.html

You'll love it. It's like some kind of strange blend of yoga, BJJ, grappler's toolbox and gymnastics. Tons of fun, but rare as hens teeth.
That's some damn good advice Rick ;-)

[rbibbs]

Footnote to "backsitting", it's most applicable to the thoracic spine. Use cautiously in the lumbar region, might modify it to "hipsitting".

Thank you for the nod and kind words Bob. I never know for sure that what works for me works for someone else until they either come back and say it did, or a more-knowledgeable RRR practitioner says "I recognize that methodology".

Coach, I'm most honored and pleased to be able to contribute back some of what I've gotten from working with your materials through Coach Dan. It's the amassed intellectual property of the tribe I'm cross-indexing to a specific application I'm familiar with. Thanks for the opportunity.

Rick