Chronic back tightness, muscle pulls

[JohnQ]

Coach Sonnon,

I have a chronic lower back problem which I think might be alleviated with the proper BodyFlow drills, and I’d appreciate your help in identifying those that would be most applicable.

I’ve experienced repeated pulls in my lower lat and gluteus medius area (lower third of the back, mid way between spine and side – always on the right side). This usually happened when snatching KB’s with poor form (as fatigue set in), even though I concentrate on proper form. In the last couple of months, I’ve switched my emphasis to long cycle C&J’s for more even loading of both sides. Still, there is some constant residual tension – like a muscle pull waiting to happen. Originally, I had attributed this to arthritis in the spine (DJD and DDD), but after some analysis and experimentation, I think I may have discovered the root cause – the use of my computer mouse for many hours a day. If I place my forearm on my desk and press down, I feel the tightness in the same area. Hours of extending/laying my right arm on the desk or otherwise using the mouse, and perhaps poor posture, may, I think, be the culprits.

Can you suggest which BodyFlow drills may be most effective to release tension in this area, please? I also own (and am fast becoming addicted to) 2-20lb Clubbells, so if any CB drills would be applicable, I’d gladly add those as well.

Any other thoughts or suggestions would be greatly appreciated. Thank you.

John Quigley

[bob_stra]

It's not my business to answer question in Scott's place, but a few things you wrote caught my attention -

> I’ve experienced repeated pulls in my lower lat and gluteus medius
> area (lower third of the back, mid way between spine and side
> always on the right side

My anatomy might be a getting a little whacked nowadays, but do you mean this area?

http://danke.com/Orthodoc/qulumb.html

(where the square is, rather than the referral zones)

Regardless, when it flares up, do you notice a difficulty in taking *deep breaths*? (note emphasis)

Do have a scoliosis (that you know of)?

>I think I may have discovered the root cause – the use of my computer >mouse for many hours a day. If I place my forearm on my desk and
>press down, I feel the tightness in the same area.

Are you right handed?

[JohnQ]

Hi, Bob.

The tightness is further up the back, although when I've pulled the muscle the pain does indeed extend down to the area in the square. Those muscles could very well be involved (I'm no anatomist either, just identified the muscles I thought were most involved from a website). No difficulty in taking deep breaths; no scoliosis; I am right handed.

Thanks for your interest.

[bob_stra]

Hey John

More question I'm afraid

The sitting position that bothers you...it occurs when you lean down on your right hand / use the mouse? Or at all times when you're sitting?

Internet diagnostics are impossible. At best we might be able to offer some suggestions here. Of course, that means we need to have some knowledge of what your habitual body use patterns are.

Would you indulge me in a little experiment? It'll take 10 minutes? Just a bit of information mining. And hey, if it hurts at any point....STOP. This isn't a "5 sets of 5 reps" kinda deal. Just play and let me know what happens.

Take seat in a chair similar to the one you normally use. Preferably a hard surfaced chair.

Sit comfortably in the middle of that chair without leaning back on the backrest. Try not slump in the chair, at least not initially. Have a bit of room about you - make sure your desk isn't in the way. Please make sure your feet are flat on the floor. Place you hands on your thighs.

(1)
Slide the right side of your pelvis forward. By this I mean slide forward in you chair as if you wanted to press an imaginarry buzzer with your right knee. Nothing fancy, just little movements, perhaps only a few centimeters, or as far as is comfortable. Nice and smooth. Then slide your pelvis and leg back. You'll notice that you kinda pivot on your other buttcheek / sitbone.

Do this a couple of times until it becomes a little easier. Then you can rest by slumping in the chair, or however is best for you.

Anything painful?

(2)
Repeat on the other side. Take a breather.

(3)
Try the first side again, but this time cue into how your head and shoulders turn. Same direction as the pelvis or opposite direction? (eg: pelvis turns right, head turns right). Just a couple of goes.

Both are fine, but what habitually happens? Whatever direction is happening for you, can you move you head in the opposite manner, or does that cause pain? Take another rest after you try this a few times.

(4) Please repeat 3 on other side for me again. Same series of questions. 'Nother break.


(5) Keeping both feet on the floor (important!), *lift* the right side of your pelvis off the chair and bring it back down. Not too much - just enough to say, slide a dollar bill underneath your butt. More important is the quality of the movement. Does (a)your whole body tilt to the left, or can you do it by (b)shortening the right side of your waist while keeping your head approximately in the centre? Irrespective, do you feel discomfort if you do it try to do it in the opposite manner (b if a, or a if b). Can you achieve it at all?

(6) Repeat other side.

(7) Put your right hand on your left shoulder, allowing your elbow to hang against your chest. Then put your left hand on your right shoulder, allowing your left forearm to be underneath your right. You kinda give yourself a hug. Is that ok, or does it cause pain? Does your head drop to your chest or your pelvis rock forwards? Keep a note of what happens

( 8 ) Keeping that configuration of your arms, lift your elbows straight up to the roof. Which way does your head move - up when elbows go up?
Can you do it the other way (elbows up : head down), or does it cause discomfort? Only a few times. Then rest.

Wash, rinse, repeat other side. Same questions. Rest

Finally

(9) In the same position as 8, let your elbows hang down. Slowly raise them as you turn to the left. You'll find yourself pointing up and to the left. Elbows down to chest (return to centre). Then swing them up and to the right. Viewed in its entirety, you end up making a kind of an arc with your elbows. Which way is easier?


Please let me know the outcome of this silly little exercise, at each stage. I have a working theory (having experienced something similar in myself and my patients), but I can't be 100% sure its accurate yet. Also let us know if you have had any injuries / or recent traumas or suffer from any conditions (such as osetoarthritis).

[JohnQ]

Hi, Bob (Doctor?)

Sitting per se doesn’t bother me; I can create the tightness in the lower/mid-back by leaning down on your right hand and using the mouse.

On to the tests:

(1) No pain.

(2) No pain.

(3) right knee forward, head and shoulders turn slightly right. Can do the opposite without pain (feels kind of good, actually).

(4) Same as 3

(5) Right - whole body tilts. I am able do it by shortening the right side of my waist while keeping head approximately in the centre, but with slight discomfort in the suspect area.

(6) Left side – whole body tilts; am able to perform by just shortening the waist. Again, slight twinge in the suspect area (lower right side).

(7) Give myself a hug – no pain, no tilt of head or pelvis.

( 8 ) Keeping that configuration of arms, lift your elbows straight up to the roof – head moves up when elbows go up. I can you do it the other way (elbows up : head down); feel tightness in the suspect area. Other side - Same answers – no twinges in suspect area.

(9) No noticeable difference on either side.

I do have osteoarthritis in the entire spine, with degenerative joint and disc disease, various spurs, narrowing of discs, pretty much top to bottom. Diagnosed 9 years ago at age 35. Without daily med (just changed from Celebrex to another drug due to insurance change), I’m a hurting unit. I attribute that to years of running on roads, which I’ve given up in favor of KB’s, CB’s, and cals. I use a little (probably not as much as I should) BodyFlow, Pavel’s SuperJoints to work out the rice krispies in my spine twice a day, and the only impediment to my daily workouts is that knot in the lower/midback region described earlier, that feels like a muscle pull is coming on. No recent traumas.

Bob, I really appreciate your interest, and your taking the time to do this.

John

[bob_stra]

John

Just to let you know, I'm on the hop for the moment. Will give you a decent reply tommorow.

> Hi, Bob (Doctor?)

Not for quite a while. Just think of me as your friendly neighborhood busy body :-)

(my boring details are on the "Round Back Lifting" question on the Open Forum, as well as in my intro.)

And with that in mind, take my advice the grain of salt it deserves.

Endless, endless question ;-)

>Sitting per se doesn’t bother me; I can create the tightness in the
>lower/mid-back by leaning down on your right hand and using the
>mouse.

Can you recreate the pain by holding your breath and repeating and of the movements? Especially 7 onwards?

Were you holding your breath at all, that you were aware of?

Thank for taking the time out to do all that. Your response were actually quite enlightning to me. Esp 3, 5 and 6.

FWIW, what was the overall sensation in doing that little series of moves? Difficulty to do? Irritating? Fearful? Frustrating? "I've done all this before"?

[Scott Sonnon]

John,

Bob's guidance is superb... and completely generous considering that such consultation costs hundreds of dollars.

Regarding KB Snatch form... I need to reinforce the obvious. Stop well before the "nerve" of fatigue and keep plenty of extra gas in the tank. High volume snatches taken to fatigue creates poor form. Poor form with such ballistic exercise requests an injury.

I suspect that I have experienced the same issue years ago when I began high volume snatches. Over the years, poor form would return whenever fatigue set in. After video analysis of my sessions (I'm a copious hoarder of records), I discovered whenever I fatigued, I would substitute upward scapular drift to compensate for fatigued shoulder pack and pec-lat lock. Simultaneously, my pelvis would tilt backwards curving the lower back.

I've noticed this trend in rookie Clubbell lifters in particular, because of the greater motor control demands of Clubbells over KBs and DBs. They'll lift the shoulder (many touching delt to ear). This transfers the load to soft tissue and eventually accumulates trauma resulting in rotator cuff issues. However, most people accompany this poor form with the posterior pelvic tilt which transfers the load to the regions you're experiencing residual muscular tension.

I suspect that the tension you feel in your right arm when mousekateering relates to your right hand dominance (let's call this increased motor control). Your dominant arm tends to try and overpower technique more so than your non-dominant (though we're all "mixed dominance" - it's not as polarized as we tend to think.)

Aside from the obvious suggestion of only performing pre-fatigue snatches, pay attention to the following form nuances: ---> Keep the pelvis tucked with an anal locked glute clench.
---> Use Performance Breathing exhale to lock down the core.
---> Keep the shoulder in closed packed position when lifting, especially in overhead position. Read Chris Rubio's 3d Strength Endurance for the Kettlebellman (http://www.circularstrengthmag.com/18/rubio1.html) Exercises to educated the movement patterns include: Butter Churn
Cam-Shaft
Arm-Screw
Pelvic Tilts
Pelvic Circles
Pelvic Infinities
Performance Breathing Exercises to release the current residual muscular tension include: Leg Thread
Spinal Rock
Tripod
Before your snatches, perform 3-5 repetitions of each educational exercises to prime your muscle software to the nuances you need to focus upon as performance goals.

Everyday for the next 1-2 weeks (until resolved), perform the remedial exercises in a slow and smooth protocol for 10-15 repetitions each or until released (and before fatigue.)

Please keep us updated on your progress, and pay attention to Bob's guidance.

[JohnQ]

Thank you, Coach Sonnon. Will do.

John

[JohnQ]

Can you recreate the pain by holding your breath and repeating and of the movements? No.

Were you holding your breath at all, that you were aware of? No.

The moves you put me through were “none of the above.” Not difficult, irritating, fearful, or frustrating? 1-4 felt good.

Good luck in your chiro studies. Your patients are very lucky to work with oyu.

Best,

John

[bob_stra]

Hi John

In a very real way, this like the blind leading the blind. Even though we now have some useful information, the mere fact that I can't see you moving makes it very difficult. More importantly, *because* I can't see you moving, I can't formulate the right questions.

For the moment, I going to *assume* this is nothing more "exotic" than a movement problem. It could, infact, be something much more. If you are at all worried by it, get it checked out by your doctor.

So because of all these circumstances, the following is NOTHING MORE than a guess. Frankly, any idiot can guess ;-) Looks like you lucked out and drew me ;-) My hope is that this will spur you on to go forward and discover your own answers. To that end, let me stumble thru my thinking process.

Brew a coffee, this may take a while to read ;-)

Reasoning:

The reason I had you do those crazy little movements was because of what you wrote. Initially you said you had chronic back pain, stretching down to the lower third of your back ("gluteus medius").

FWIW, the gluteus medius is where your buttcheek is. Given that in a seated position, you glutes don't need to work very hard, I was a little confused. Are you clenching your buttocks? Anal sphincter? Is your breath / belly contracted?

The description you gave makes it sound as if we're talking abt the quadratus lumborum. However, it seems I struck out on that one too. You say that the tension is higher up, even thought the pain sometimes extends to that area. For yourself, experiment to see if you can take a deep belly breath in a seated position. The quadratus lumborum is involved in forced respiration, side bending and rib alignment. Can you breath so that to exaggerate the separation of the ribs to one side at a time, and then the other? Try it, see what results you get.

Higher up would mean either rhomboids, lower traps, lats or erectors. AFAIK, none of those ALONE refer pain in the lower back area.

So what you might have is a pattern, possibly involving some of that upper back musculature and the use of your spine : pelvis. Certainly, given that sitting alone doesn't bother you but mouse use does, is a clue towards this.

Taking look at your responses -

Forward and backward sliding of the hip causes no pain for you. I'm not sure how fluid the movement is. In any case, there are about a dozen ways to achieve this movement, excluding obvious cheating.

Your answer to 3 indicates to me that you might have a pattern of using your spine as one unit - ie: in an undifferentiated manner. Which is 100% fine, make no mistake!! However, for your own sake, differentiation of the spine may prove to be useful. Meaning, being able to turn the head one way, the middle back the other, and the lower back with the head. (And any combination there of). Achieving ease of movement is these sophisticated patterns is what real life demands of us. Take a look at Scott's famous "raptor" neck ;-)

You experiences with (5) and (6) kinda go along with the above. If anything they make me think that the ribs and spine at that level (ie: from abt T12 to L5) tend to work as one unit. A kind of corset / brace effect. Again, that's fine. However, if your try to "force" them to work separately without knowing how fluidly achieve this, then naturally pain will occur.

( 8 ) Again, no problem moving as one unit. However, having to move in different directions at the same time = difficulty. Incidentally, there are many way to achieve this movement. Again, without seeing you....

Try it again for yourself and see whether you dip your hips slightly forwards to achieve the movement (ie: your lower back should arch a little. Your feet should press into the floor a little). Then specifically try to keep everything rigid but the moving upper parts. Note for yourself what happens. All of these are clues as to how you are using yourself.

Guesses:

Taking all of that in consideration, here are my guesses.

If I were you (and I'm not), I'd be interested in in discovering how I can fluidly move my ribs, spine, hips. Eventually working upto moving them in any configuration, in any direction, at any speed. To that end, the following zdorovye movements might be useful -

(1)Spinal wave, especially the "inch worm" version.
(2)Spinal rock (I'll come back to that in a moment)
(3)Hip circles - large, gross motor, hoola hoop style
(4)Hip circles - Pavels "Russian bellydance" version. Scott Fabel does it on the Zdorovye tape - you know the one? Working to make it just as fluid as the gross motor hip circle.

(5)Standing on one leg, forward leg circles. Lift other foot. That foot moves in a circle in front of you. It's on the tapes too.

(6)Figure 8 with the arms - vertically. Using the whole body. Reference the double figure 8 Scott does on the intro to each Zdorovye tape (the cool little dance). Notice the way his ribs work? How the movement kinda shoots his arms up? That a key area of exploration.

(7)Figure 8 with the arms - horizontally. Using the whole body.

(8)Breathing - especially the deep, lower respiratory pattern (Nav IIRC).

(9) Something with your feet. Take a look on the "back force transmission" posts as to why.

As you progress, leg threading will become a very useful thing to explore.

*All* of these I recommend merely as methods to gain more knowledge of the way you move your body. Certainly, in my mind, there's a reason and logic to each of these recommendations, given the scant info I have of you. But...you pay peanuts, you get monkeys ;-) For example, you might look at (5) and go "well, WTF do my legs have to do with anything?". For me, moving my legs efficiently in that manner means I need to counter balance myself. Using my ribs. Fluidly.

"Leg bone's connected to the hip bone. Hip bone's connected to the spine bone." ;-)

But maybe not for you. Play ;-)

Finally, (2). I think the spinal rock is very useful, but would recommend you work upto it. May I recommend you begin with the Pelvic Clock? There's a version here -

http://www.nas.com/~richf/low49.htm

Once you get good at that (or even before if you wish), take a pair of thin socks and roll them up into a ball. Place them under the middle of your pelvis (half way to coccyx) and repeat the exercise. This will decrease the stability while increasing the mobility. Another level of refinement.


Computer Work:

You might like to experiment with placing that same sock under your right side pelvis (sitbone) when you do your computer work. See what happens.

Furthermore, my might find it useful to take a small towel, fold it over a few times (into a cylinder), and put it on the back rest. Try it in different areas - near the low back, near where your back hurts, near upper back. Discover what is most comfortable for you.

Final Words:

Do you begin to understand why internet diagnostics are
impossible? ;-)

So many different options....so much to play with.

Go play ;-)

And pay attention to everything Scott tells you. Between you and me, I think he has the edge on me in knowing his own system ;-)

[JohnQ]

Bob,

Thank you for taking so much time to help. I appreciate it very much, and value your advice greatly.

Be assured that your advice and Coach Sonnon's have been saved to my harddrive for study. I think your "go play" advice is the best approach. And I will.

Thanks again.

Best regards,
John

[Scott Sonnon]

Amazingly thorough and well thought out advice, Bob! :shock:

[bob_stra]

Bob,

Thank you for taking so much time to help. I appreciate it very much, and value your advice greatly.


You're very welcome.

Remember to let us all know how your doing from time to time.

One more thing - don't get discouraged by your "play time". To be sure you will feel discouraged at times. I use to get so upset that I would go into full body lock down / spasms at being unable to simple tasks.

Still, everyone has to pay their dues - efficient movement cannot be faked. Sometimes those dues are emotional, othertimes they're mental and physical. For me, I had (and have) to pay all three at times. That whole "bodymind" thing is tricky.

For example, it took me almost 3 years of SOLID play (2-3 per weeks, sometimes much more) to find another way to roll from my back to my front easily. 2yrs to figure out an effortless method of getting up / into chairs. 4yrs to learn how to move my upper arm without involving my shoulder. I still have little idea of how to soften my sternum to better use my thoracic spine, or to turn my head a little easier or a million other things.

The moral of the story is - the "pre-play" may take a while. (or I might just be dumb ;-) Learn to enjoy the hell out of it. Besides, every now and again, you'll get a flashbulb moment that makes it even sweeter.


/schoolmarm voice/

We expect great things from you Mr Quigley. Great things ;-)

/schoolmarm voice/

[bob_stra]

Amazingly thorough and well thought out advice, Bob! :shock:

I dunno. I have a habit of "talking" too much. I'm pretty sure these are the Scott Sonnon forums, not the "come listen to Bob crap on forums".

Give me sign if I overstep my bounds, yeah?

PS: Now you see why I'll need 4-6 weeks for those articles ;-)

[Scott Sonnon]

Your posts are welcome here anytime, Bob!

[JohnQ]

Thanks to Bob and Coach Sonnon's thoughtful, comprehensive advice, I'm working the recommended drills and the problem is steadily improving.

Thank you very much.

[bob_stra]

Hi John

Good stuff!! I for one would love to see some indepth posts of your experiences, if only for my own learning. I'm sure others would be interested too.

Right now I'm working with my mother who has some parallels with your situation. Too early to report anything right now (second session today), but well see. Mostly, like all beginners in anything, she's working hard not smart. :roll:

[JohnQ]

Hi, Bob.

Just finished my workout, topped off by spinal rocks, tripods, pelvic circles (belly dance), and leg threads. Off to Sunday family duties. I'll post more tonight or tomorrow.

Best,
John

[bob_stra]

Well, there's a co-incidence. I spent a good while today video taping myself doing leg threads and front ground engagements (amongst other things).

I've lent my GTB tape, so I can't recall wether the leg threading has you using the same arm : leg or opposite arm : leg. The former causes a rotation in the low back, the latter in the mid back (for me, at least).

Both are fun to play with.

I also found out that my front ground engagments look almost like a flying hindu pushup. They're smooth and all, and I don't crunch into the ground, but damn, they don't look like they feel.

Long story short - it's worthwhile videotaping yourself.

Anyhow, I await your discoveries with "(a)bated breath"

[JohnQ]

Bob,

I've been doing spinal rocks, tripods, belly dance, leg threads for a few minutes before and after every daily workout (early AM), and then for a few minutes each evening to work out the kinks of the day. I throw in some arms screws and other drills, e.g. Pavels' prokachka drill, and wall squats (standing close to and facing a wall and squatting - big release in lumbar are near full squat. Feels great). The tightness is steadily diminishing; it could probably be completely resolved if I would spend more time playing. I think the biggest reason for the progress is the consistency, even at small volume. Exploring range of motion and aiming for fluidity at least twice a day keeps everything oiled and removes residual tension.

My biggest learning from this very small experiment is that I need to spend more time playing.

Thanks for your interest.

John

[bob_stra]

Good stuff. I think you've hit the nail on the head - small volume + constant effort + playing = success.

I had my dear old mother do swipes and mills today with empty baseball bats. Then I made her do boxsteps and four corner balance drill.

....Because I'm evil and enjoy harrassing the elderly ;-)