Muscle spasm or injury and my deadlift?

[chris hansen]

Hello,

How can you tell if something is a muscle spasm or an actual physical injury?

When I would deadlift it would feel fine at the time but I would be sore the next day. Not like stiff muscles from working out but it would feel more like an injury and would hurt more in certain positions. If it was actual physical damage wouldn't you feel something right away or at least after cooling off a little? It wasn't always like this. I used to be able to deadlift and one day I realized I was having a lot of sore backs and tracked it down to the deadlifting. It didn't have to be a heavy weight either. I could lift 90 pounds, which would feel ridiculously light, but the next morning I would feel like I have an injury. Assuming your form was pretty good (I've had it checked) and the doctor couldn't find anything wrong, that wouldn't really be enough weight to cause damage would it? I used to get a sore back from many things including running, jumping and skipping rope. That improved dramatically shortly after reading a book on back pain by Dr. (John?) Sarno. Deadlifting is something that continued to bother me though.

I've been a little hesitant to try deadlifting again but I've been working on increasing my strength and hamstring flexibility. I've done some sumo deads the last couple of days and it seems to be going well so I might try regular deads again pretty soon.

Thannks.

[Scott Sonnon]

Chris,

What has your doctor advised you?

[chris hansen]

The doctor said my back looks healthy and sent me to a physical therapist for the pain. The physical therapist stretched me, did some kind of manipulations and trigger point stuff which helped and gave me some stretches and exercises to do. He did say that I had a lot of muscles that were locked up. They didn't find an injury or structural problem, they mostly helped with the pain. I had gone to a chiropractor for several years as well. He used manipulation, a little acupuncture and that thing where you put the electrodes on. After several years I decided the chiropractor wasn't a good long term solution and stopped going and things haven't been any worse since then.

[JasonE]

If you are cleared for action and the therapist thinks it's mostly a matter of getting the muscles to loosen up, you're pretty lucky. Get your hands on Warrior Wellness and make it a daily practice. Skip the weight training until you've had a good 2-4 weeks of consistent Warrior Wellness practice and can guage your progress.

If you can go through the full Warrior Wellness Basic routine smoothly and pain-free, you will probably be able to start working with weights again. Post your progress here and we'll be happy to help you as needed.

[chris hansen]

I have warrior wellness but haven't been doing it consistantly. I've gone through the basic progam several times though and it seemed to go well. The only problem was the side bends made my middle back sore but I worked on it and now they don't cause any trouble. I've also played with some of the intermediate and advanced exercises with no problems.

I think I will do one set of deadlifts tonight and see how I feel tomorrow.

[JasonE]

Make Warrior Wellness a consistent practice, and include it as a warmup before you lift. You don't want to lift when your back is stiff.

When you get back into lifting drop the weight a bit and work to make sure your form is perfect and painless again, especially in the days following. If you tweak anything, it should at least be less tweaked than if you tried to max out. :wink: Incrementally work back up to where you were before.

Good luck and post your results here.

[chris hansen]

I tried a set of 5 last night with 90 pounds and it seemed to go well. This morning I'm a little stiff but I think it's more muscle stiffness from not having done it for so long, I'll see how I feel by tomorrow. I'll start doing warrior wellness tonight and if I feel fine tomorrow I'll try another set of deads.

[chris hansen]

This morning at work my upper back suddenly started hurting. It feels like the type of thing that would send me to the chiropractor. That hasn't happened in a very long time, I wonder if it could be related to the deadlifts?

[Scott Sonnon]

Chris, if your car backfires when you go over a bump enough times, eventually you'll induce that the bump leads to the backfire, regardless of the actual mechanics behind the connection.

Check with your doctor. Once you do have a serious injury from a particular high intensity exercise, that area can remain predisposed to revisited harm from its continued performance. Sometimes, it's advisable to either select an alternative, or to redefine one's personal fitness to exclude the need for such gross movements.

[chris hansen]

Chris, if your car backfires when you go over a bump enough times, eventually you'll induce that the bump leads to the backfire, regardless of the actual mechanics behind the connection.

Check with your doctor. Once you do have a serious injury from a particular high intensity exercise, that area can remain predisposed to revisited harm from its continued performance. Sometimes, it's advisable to either select an alternative, or to redefine one's personal fitness to exclude the need for such gross movements.

That's the approach I took for several years but I'm starting to think I can overcome this particular hurdle. I have no problem supporting a heavy weight, just using a deadlift type motion to pick it up. At one time I would even get sore from imitating the motion with a broom handle! According to the doctors, I don't have a structural problem or a health related issue. I think that at one point my body made a negative association with that type of movement and kind of freaks out when I try it.

When I checked with the doctor he said my back looked fine and I should be able to do pretty much anything I want. I did hurt my back at work once and it took a while to recover but neither the doctor nor the chiropractor gave me any limitations. I believe my sore upper back this morning was just a muscle spasm. It came on suddenly while I was sitting and if I concentrated on relaxing it the pain would diminish and now it's starting to feel better. My low back feels ok though and that's the area of greatest concern.

I think I'll be more consistent with warrior wellness and If I feel good tomorrow maybe I'll try another set of deadlifts at 90 pounds but maybe only 2 reps. If that goes well for a couple of days I'll start increasing the volume very slowly. If that doesn't work out maybe I'll finally throw in the towel and move on.

Thanks for reading through all this, I would welcome any thoughts or input.

[Scott Sonnon]

From what you've written, it sounds like Fear-Reactivity bracing in the area leads to aggrivation of a local area predisposed to strain: your lower back.

I suggest a cycle of incremental bridging as compensatory to the forward flexion and pulling effort of deads, as well as an exploratory meditation on the source of the fear-reactivity.

And now for the space-cadet suggestion... during your bridging cycle, meditate upon the injury. Think about it. Typically lower back issues regard some type of safety issue regarding family, community, courage, confidence, sexuality... This root level is very influencial and critical to your overall performance and health. There's no difference between your physical body, your mind and your emotions. They're all one thing... and we're hard-wired to communicate an issue. Injuries and pain are two of our greatest 'signals' to pay attention.

[chris hansen]

Thanks for the suggestions, and for replying so quickly. I will follow your suggestions but I'm not sure what "incremental bridging" is, could you point me in the right direction?

Thanks.

[chris hansen]

From what you've written, it sounds like Fear-Reactivity bracing in the area leads to aggrivation of a local area predisposed to strain: your lower back.

I suggest a cycle of incremental bridging as compensatory to the forward flexion and pulling effort of deads, as well as an exploratory meditation on the source of the fear-reactivity.

And now for the space-cadet suggestion... during your bridging cycle, meditate upon the injury. Think about it. Typically lower back issues regard some type of safety issue regarding family, community, courage, confidence, sexuality... This root level is very influencial and critical to your overall performance and health. There's no difference between your physical body, your mind and your emotions. They're all one thing... and we're hard-wired to communicate an issue. Injuries and pain are two of our greatest 'signals' to pay attention.

Coach Sonnon,

I was thinking about what you wrote and that led to some painful childhood memories. I almost started crying in the middle of work, It’s amazing how that stuff stays with you.

I hope people don’t mind if I spill my guts a little, it feels therapeutic to write about it. I’ll try to keep it brief.

To say I was picked on in school would be an understatement. Being in this environment caused me to withdraw and become more introverted, which just made me an easier target. I became so withdrawn that I could hardly talk to the cashier at the store. I think the worst part was that I wasn’t able to do anything. I would sit there and take it but for some reason I was so insecure I just couldn’t defend myself. Even today, 20 years later, I still daydream about how good it would feel to punch out some of the worst offenders. I’ve also had back problems since I was around 12.

On the way to school I would actually feel sick to my stomach and I used to wish something would happen so I couldn’t go. In my second year of high school I was diagnosed with non-Hodgkin’s lymphoma. They treated the cancer aggressively with chemotherapy and radiation but my illness was considered terminal and caused me to miss most of high school. The doctor said to me “If you’re still alive a year from now I’ll be surprised” but I recovered in time to attend my high school graduation ceremony.

I’ve had the feeling for a while now that the cancer developed as a result of my experience in school. I never factored in the back pain before but the more I learn, the more I think that your emotional state can affect you in ways you wouldn’t expect.

[Coach Gostnell]

Hi Chris,


There's no difference between your physical body, your mind and your emotions. They're all one thing...

What Scott wrote so totally ties in with what I've been experiencing AND how I've been handling it too.


the worst part was that I wasn’t able to do anything.

I remember being stuck in that paralysis when attacked as a kid a couple times by other kids.....what was really weird was I would physically take on my older, much stronger brother whenever he thought I was due for a pummeling, which was often - he'd always win, but I wouldn't give up until he got bored and quit. Yet with a playground bully, I was helpless & immobilized. Go figure.

I'm glad for you that you're finding your real strength, health and "mobility"!

[Scott Sonnon]

Chris,

This is huge. HUGE, amigo! Congratulations. Big things. Expect to see changes.

Take a look at how similar our experiences have been: Rage Out! (http://www.circularstrengthmag.com/31/sonnon6.html)

[chris hansen]

I felt strong last night so I tried another set of deadlifts. Later I felt so good I put 10 pounds on the bar and did another set. This morning there was no pain! I will proceed cautiously but am very excited.

[Matt_OZ]

Well done Chris, that's great news!

You've received plenty of awesome advice in this thread (as is usually the case on this forum). The only thing I feel I could chip in is some basic tips on the actuall mechanics of the deadlift (certainly not as huge as the stuff the other guys have given you but still useful on a purely mechanical level).

1. Always be sure to place the bar down on the ground between each rep, stand up and take a breath or two, then start the next rep (you can even perform a couple of BB type movements of slight spinal flexion/extension coupled with the being breathed. This unloads the spine and also provides a greater level of technical and postural precision. This idea of placing the bar down and then standing up between reps helped me tremendously. Some people think it's "cheating" to have the so called "rest" but you'll find it only adds to the effectiveness of the deadlifts and improves ones "starting strength" due to it shutting out the myotatic reflex/SSC

2. Only do low rep sets of deadlifts, fatigue and lactic acid are great form wreckers. Try the 5x5 method with only the last set being a real workset, use the prior 4 sets to build up to the final work set (these prior sets will warm up your nervous system and also serve to help practice your optimal form

3. ALWAYS think of pushing your feet through the floor rather than lifting the bar.

Best of luck buddy,
Matt :D

2.
2.

[Randell Waddell]

ALWAYS think of pushing your feet through the floor rather than lifting the bar

:D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D

This simple concept can produce amazing differences in performance in many areas.

Could I particularly encourage some of you people who have also explored the "Internal Arts" to contribute here, please.

Cheers
Randell. :D

[PaoloValladolid]

3. ALWAYS think of pushing your feet through the floor rather than lifting the bar.


Forgetting to push my feet through the floor is what caused my lower back pain last week. :oops:

Since I'm not a powerlifter, I don't plan on practicing the conventional DL very much, going forward. The reverse DL (not to be confused with the hack squat DL) is more idiot-proof.

[Matt_OZ]

Hi guys,

It's great to see that a number of us are big fans of this concept (pushing the feet through the floor).

I got the tip years ago from a powerlifter buddy of mine, I swear by it. I'm no internal arts expert but I know that a couple of my Wing Chun teachers were big proponents of "rooting into the ground" (not to be confused wth being static and heavy) in order to absorb and generate force.

Have a great day guys,
Matt :D

[Scott Sonnon]

And one of the critical nuances of the basic Clubbell swing... 8)

[Matt_OZ]

Ha,ha,ha,

How could i have forgotten to mention that, I should've seen that one coming :lol:

Matt :D

PS Most impressive the way your WW drills improve that characteristic so well without people even having to really think about it, rooting into the ground during the drills is just an essential concept irrespective of whether a person means to or not. I love it when drills can train an attibute that sometimes seems so intangible to so many people. Learning by doing, you gotta love it!

Oh yeah, the Clubbell article in Blitz should be in my hot little hands within a week or two, I'll be sure you get a copy :D .

[Randell Waddell]

Scott wrote:

And one of the critical nuances of the basic Clubbell® swing...

Please try it with the Rock-Its also - there is magic and something very, very beautiful in this !!!!!!!

Cheers
Randell.
:D :D :D :D :D :D :D

[Scott Sonnon]

Matt,

Congratulations on your authorship yet again! Please send me a copy!

[Matt_OZ]

Thanks Scott,

It's been great that the mags I write for have been open minded enough to allow me to introduce CST to their readership. I know that some editors can be very wary of anything new and different, I'm sure it's a sign of even bigger and better things to come.

Matt :D

[PaoloValladolid]

ALWAYS think of pushing your feet through the floor rather than lifting the bar

:D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D

This simple concept can produce amazing differences in performance in many areas.

Could I particularly encourage some of you people who have also explored the "Internal Arts" to contribute here, please.

Cheers
Randell. :D

I don't recall people in Taiji, Bagua or Xingyi/Xinyi sometimes push their feet through the floor but not always. For the weighted foot, the sensation is more like allowing weight to sink through the body into the weighted foot. For push-hands, its allowing the partner's push, at certain points, to sink into the foot. The Bagua class I attended advocated variability - sometimes you're "heavy", sometimes you're "light", and sometimes you're somewhere between. All of these arts discourage double-weighting - one foot always carries more weight than the other. The weighted foot never does the pushing. The unweighted foot may push against the ground at times to help establish structure for a certain movement. But sometimes its in the air or doing something else. Our Bagua had a saying "3 hands, 1 foot".

I notice with Four Corner Balance Drill, as I practice it, that even though I'm not consciously pushing down with my weighted foot, it gets quite a workout anyway.

This is from my limited experience in MA, FWIW....

[Scott Sonnon]

Paolo,

"3 hands - 1 foot" is consistent with the biomechanics of all masterful grappling (I.O.U.F. (http://www.rmax.tv/iouf.html)): one locking arm, one power transfer arm, one mobile leg (an additional arm), and one supporting/driving leg (the "root"). Learning to drive the foot into the Earth to have the Earth throw the "two of you as one" is a difficult skill to master, but is cultivated in the daily personal practice of the FCBD.

[chris hansen]

Just a little update in case anyone was interested.

I've been deadlifting pain free, I'm so excited! Today I did 175 for 5 reps and it feels good. Not much by some standards but last year I couldn't deadlift so I'm very happy.

It's actually looking to be a good year. Not only am I deadlifting and kettlebell lifting pain free, I also ran my fastest 5k and entered my first mountain bike race.

Thank you coach Sonnon and everyone else who helped out. I can't describe how exciting this has been for me.

[Matt_OZ]

That's great news Chris!



Today I did 175 for 5 reps and it feels good. Not much by some standards but last year I couldn't deadlift so I'm very happy.

Don't ever feel you have to make a disclaimer/apology about any of your achievements, every step forward is worthy of being happy with and proud of. It's easy to feel like a "small fry" in cyberspace when you can see so many people talking about very big lifts and performances. Just always remember where you are coming from and what you've overcome. When I was 17 years old I tried powercleans for the first time and within a few sessions I was able to powerclean 220lbs while weighing 200, by those standards I should be pretty darn strong now (especially considering how much more experienced and informed I am now). Thing is though, since the age of 17 I've had a bunch of serious back problems. If obsess about absolute numbers I'd be dissapointed but instead I look at what I've overcome and take pride in the things I can do rather than the things I can't. My back feels great these days but I'm very, very careful about heavy pulls (cleans, deads etc). These days my deadlifts would be "nothing to write home about" compared to "where I should be :roll: " had I never been injured BUT considering that only 3 years ago I couldn't even get a carton of milk out the fridge without pain (and was told I'd never be able to lift more than 5kg off the floor ever again) I'm pretty happy. The funny thing is my clients repsect me more for what I've been able to overcome than what I can or can't lift in the gym.

Stay the course mate and always remember to take a moment and smell the roses.

Matt :D

[Matt_OZ]

That's great news Chris!



Today I did 175 for 5 reps and it feels good. Not much by some standards but last year I couldn't deadlift so I'm very happy.

Don't ever feel you have to make a disclaimer/apology about any of your achievements, every step forward is worthy of being happy with and proud of. It's easy to feel like a "small fry" in cyberspace when you can see so many people talking about very big lifts and performances. Just always remember where you are coming from and what you've overcome. When I was 17 years old I tried powercleans for the first time and within a few sessions I was able to powerclean 220lbs while weighing 200, by those standards I should be pretty darn strong now (especially considering how much more experienced and informed I am now). Thing is though, since the age of 17 I've had a bunch of serious back problems. If obsess about absolute numbers I'd be dissapointed but instead I look at what I've overcome and take pride in the things I can do rather than the things I can't. My back feels great these days but I'm very, very careful about heavy pulls (cleans, deads etc). These days my deadlifts would be "nothing to write home about" compared to "where I should be :roll: " had I never been injured BUT considering that only 3 years ago I couldn't even get a carton of milk out the fridge without pain (and was told I'd never be able to lift more than 5kg off the floor ever again) I'm pretty happy. The funny thing is my clients repsect me more for what I've been able to overcome than what I can or can't lift in the gym.

Stay the course mate and always remember to take a moment and smell the roses.

Matt :D

[PaoloValladolid]

Chris,

Great news! Stay injury-free!

Coach,

I wish I knew about FCBD when I was practicing MA. Especially throws!