Blade Mechanics

[kblifter]

Dear Coach Sonnon and Forum,

I was wondering if the Blade Mechanics tapes went into defense of the weapons or only how to use them. If anyone could paint a clearer picture about the themes of the series, to someone who is not that well versed in that sort of weaponry. I appreciate your patience with my ignorance and time to explain. I am planning my next investment and would like to be as informed as possible.

Will

[Scott Sonnon]

Will,
Here's an official review by Bladeforums.com. If this doesn't answer your question, then I'll compose a response myself.

Alternate reviews have been done by JAK, JVC, and jsteinman at the same site. This first 2 volume series is on Carbine Fencing/short spear type work, the second on knife fighting/Free Bayonet, and there's a bonus tape on weapon dexterity.

Get some coffee.

Bayonet Fighting/Carbine Fencing is about training and developing skill (attributes is a dirty word now). This 2 volume series is head Scott Sonnon (who shaved the People's Pony Tail, just kidding Mr.S) and Shawn Menard.

Tape A BD (51 min)
Intro & History
Battlefield doctrine vs Training doctrine
Battery Position & Footwork
Basic Thrusts & Parries

Battlefield doctrine vs Training doctrine covers the context of this type of training, differences & dangers between pugil stick and bayonet, the fencing influence, and multiple options with the carbine. There is a tactical analysis between ROSS methods vs more common methods and the old carbines to the M16 that pops up throughout the series. Basic Thrusts & Parries cover thrust and parry applications, beats, enveloping, stringering. The last three are part of a training process that gets you to use positioning and placement over brute force, again this is continued training not a short course.

Tape A has beginner level techniques but an intermediate level understanding. It goes well with other ROSS materials, J. Prather's close combat tape, and….J. Styers Cold Steel Production quality has improved since the IOUF series but the sound can be quirky, particularly in the Knife/Free Bayonet Tape.

Bottom line, not for the grunts or riot squads really but for small units with more training time.

Tape B BD (50 min)
Disarms & Takedowns (8 Drills)
Carbine Fencing & Sparring


Disarms & Takedowns Basic Passing motion, changing leads
defanging, buttstrokes, Hyperfunction/carbine manipulation
Screwing & Infighting, and Shock Engineering. So half of this section will seem familiar, the other half is all ROSS. Carbine Fencing & Sparring starts with comments on the context of sports in relation to fighting, then goes into breathing methods, and more on the enveloping concept. Sonnon claims that even if you do a gross movement, it should still be done with some finesse and not be robotic.

Tape B goes well with ROSS IOUF and Zdorovye series and K. Worden's Sibat/Long Pole.

Knife Fighting/Free Bayonet 1-2
With Scott Sonnon and Shawn Menard, special appearances by Busse Steel Heart II, BM Auto Stryker and Gerber Applegate Folder.

Tape A BD (57 min)
Intro (context, the battlefield knife)
Grips & Dexterity drills (6 grips, 5 drills)
Structure & Strikes (stance, 3 drills, figure 8 theory, snapcuts, Inoculation)

After the standard 3 min intro of Spestnaz training to Soviet rock and roll, we get into the context of military knife combat and Grips & Dexterity Drills, fun exercises when talking on the phone. Menard briefly covers how to recover a fallen weapon and why to roll and not reach for it. Structure & Strikes covered an unusual version of the figure 8 theory, snapcuts, and the Inoculation theory, which seems to be about when to insert and maintain control of the fight.

Short review eh? Not quite. Tape A here doesn't really have new moves to learn but it explains a lot of the FMA, RMA, and Silat theories behind some common moves. You get a depth of explanation as to why you do or don't do a move.

This tape isn't for beginners and is pretty much gold for advanced folks particularly the Sayoc crowd. Knifecraft, Drawpoint, ABC, Systema, and Worden's Personal Knife series go well with Tape A
Blauer's VIP Knife & Grappling tape, Maffei's Reality of Edged Weapons, and Latosa Escrima to a lesser extent.

Production quality is quirky, better picture quality than the IOUF series but 7 sound/picture glitches. Nothing bad just annoying.
I've been asked about similarities between Systema and ROSS, which I can't really go into since I don't practice both. From a fight perspective however, Systema is shown at a slower more fluid pace, ROSS is equally as fluid but shows more explosive finishes.

Tape B BD (50 min)
4 thrust drill (thrust, parries, arm/carbine concept)
Infighting (snapcuts, parry/counter, 3 methods of engagment, backcuts)
Disarms (3 types of disarms, 5 pt disarm drill)
Soft Work (training progression, 3 "Marrionette" drills, free flow w/ weapons)
Conclusion (training comments, military issues)

Tape B starts with the 4 thrust/parry drill and the arm/carbine concept, a method where a knife can engage a longer weapon without running straight at it. Infighting had content seen before except for the 3 methods of engagement(ways to receive/flow with a cut). The Backcuts shown are a little different than JAK's ABC and are an extension of the Figure 8 theory. There's a knife throwing story that would make Sayoc folks proud involving the ice pick grip. Speaking of which, this series will tide you over till the Sayoc tapes come out, IMO. Softwork was about body control and is probably the hardest training task of the tape. The Conclusion covers training and military training issues.

This tape goes well with ROSS, Systema Knife, Latosa, and Dogbrothers material.

In fact, I would these tapes then rewatch the JAK and Vasiliev materials to connect the dots. Funny thing, I seem to understand the Russian knife and weapons tapes easier than their other work.

Video Review: ROSS Weapon Exercises
Available through http://www.amerross.com
This is a bonus tape if you get the ROSS Bayonet/Knife Fighting package

The BD (27 min)
Intro
Strength & Dexterity Drills (wrist drills and push up variations)
Basics (wrist and back stretches with the staff, body levers)
Sensitivity (tactile sensitivity drills with the staff and the sashqua sword)
Conclusion (comments on function and self perfection)

Strength & Dexterity Drills had about 4 wrist exericise (interesting version of abanico) and 6 versions of push ups. Basics has 6 staff drills based on the first two shown and introduces the body lever concept and it's relation to disarms. Sensitivity has about 4 staff drills and incorporates ROSS' 3 dimensional motion concept as well as fulcrums.

Goes well the ROSS Knife/Free Bayonet series and is for all learning levels.

[kblifter]

Coach Sonnon,

The review mentions that it is not basic material. I enjoy your material, because it always focuses on principles and not memorizing dogmatic technique. Would this series still be good for a novice to weapons?

I was mostly interested in the knife fighting, but I assume the principles for carbine would apply to stick as well as other weapons and would be helpful. Is there another tape series you would recommend -- Blade mechanics is the only weapons series, I can see you offer.

What is Sayoc? The review refers to waiting for the Sayoc tapes to come out, is that another series you are planning on coming out with? Would that series better serve my needs?

From what I can tell (not much knowledge about topic from my end), it seems many disciplines teach unrealistic trapping and slashing. Is fighting with a weapon, principally an extension of the hand like some people say or is it a whole different beast?

I am fascinated by the figure eight principle from your Grappler's tool box and am curious to see how it applies to knife fighting. Is there a particular practice knife or style of knife you recommend?

thanks for your time Coach Sonnon & have a nice weekend,

Will

[Scott Sonnon]

The review mentions that it is not basic material. I enjoy your material, because it always focuses on principles and not memorizing dogmatic technique. Would this series still be good for a novice to weapons? I'm sorry that the review added to your confusion rather than resolved it. I should have just addressed your questions myself, but thought an external perspective may have been useful. Regardless, I'll try and offer my perspective.
It's not basic material for the conventional educational approach of moving from rote technique to combination memorization to application. It is for anyone beginner to advanced if you depart from the conventional approach.

I was mostly interested in the knife fighting, but I assume the principles for carbine would apply to stick as well as other weapons and would be helpful. Is there another tape series you would recommend -- Blade mechanics is the only weapons series, I can see you offer. No, for this genre, I'd only suggest this series. Yes, throughout the series I continually reinforce that there are two types of weapons: deliberate and improvised. The danger of the former is that often we no longer make an implement useful once the deliberate function becomes unavailable. The series teaches how to improvise weaponry and apply the principles universally, and even how to convert non-conventional utility out of even conventional arms.

What is Sayoc? The review refers to waiting for the Sayoc tapes to come out, is that another series you are planning on coming out with? Would that series better serve my needs? It was the reviewer's allusion to a different style of training about which I am not versed. Sorry again for the confusion.

From what I can tell (not much knowledge about topic from my end), it seems many disciplines teach unrealistic trapping and slashing. Is fighting with a weapon, principally an extension of the hand like some people say or is it a whole different beast? ROSS only teaches "alive" functional work. If you study a static drill to understand mechanical principles, it is immediately taken into a fluid drill where you must apply against a resistant opponent, and then through dynamic drills where you do not know what variables to expect.
You'll find weapon work to be both an extension of the hand... the forearm, the elbow, upper arm, shoulder, neck, head, torso, belly, back, waist, hips, thigh, knee, calf, foot, and places in between.

I am fascinated by the figure eight principle from your Grappler's tool box and am curious to see how it applies to knife fighting. Is there a particular practice knife or style of knife you recommend? I recommend your own style which you uncover through exploration. I'm not trying to be cute when I say there are as many styles on the planet as there are people. Typically in stylistic training, you must absorb technical examples, extract the mechanical principles, apply them to your unique physiological, psychology and threat environment. You can however go a different educational route, and go directly to uncovering your own style.

thanks for your time Coach Sonnon & have a nice weekend My pleasure, Will. Again, sorry for the earlier confusion. Enjoy your weekend as well.

[kblifter]

Coach Sonnon,

I understand that you wanted to provide a non-biased source and not toot your own horn, however, I am already a fan of your work. I also like that you don't take yourself too seriously (comes across on tape). I appreciate you taking time out to clarify what the series entails and it has jumped to the top of my list along with another 15lbs. Clubbell. My point is no need to apologize and thanks for the information.

Will :lol:

[kblifter]

Coach Sonnon,

Is there any particular training blade you recommend? Also what style of knife do you recommend overall? There are so many out there it is confusing.

Thanks again. Now, I must apologize, for the more material I review and get, the more questions I may have.

Will

[Scott Sonnon]

Will,
Blade choice and carry depends upon your needs, physiology, psychology, environment/climate, potential threats, and comfort, availability of funds. You need to shop around and get your paws on the actual blades, experiment with your carry position, your draw from that position, et cetera. It is a very serious issue which requires personal investigation.
I received my training blades in Russia, but http://trainingblades.com has good quality equipment.

[poidog]

Gentlemen -

My 2 cents FWIW. I second your advice, Coach, that Edges2 puts out some quality trainers. My stickfighting group uses the aluminum blades for our training sessions. Also, following your recommendation that kblifter's choice of blade depends on the different criteria he must take into consideration, I'd like to mention a quality folding trainer I purchased at revgear.com. Since leaving the service, I've always carried locking folders as my tool of choice. I love my folding trainer because I can practice real world skills concerning deployment and utilization from how I carry the folder without maiming my training partner...or myself! :wink:

Regarding Sayoc, it's a family art of FMA currently headed by Tuhon Chris Sayoc. It is a very 'alive' art that trains "all blade, all the time". I have nothing but praise for the Sayoc clan when it comes to bladed combat...they address the realities of the chaos and ugliness of such encounters. I also believe that to become an instructor you need to have extensive first aid training, so there is an emphasis on civic responsibility. They're based out of the Philadelphia area and are well worth the effort to train with. I have limited experience with them but even that limited amount has dramatically influenced my own training.

Having said all that, I too am looking forward to digging into your weapons tapes. Once the CBs have arrived and I've gotten the basics down, I look forward to getting familiar with and implementing more of your material, especially the ROSS related stuff. Thanks again for all the quality material!!

[Scott Sonnon]

Solid info!

[Jrichardson]

Funny thing, I seem to understand the Russian knife and weapons tapes easier than their other work.


I bet that has something to do with the cleverly inserted 3d floating pointer that shows where all the lines of force add up. 8)

[Scott Sonnon]

:lol: :wink:

[Vbrown]

The best knife is the one you have with you. The one you have with you is the one that feels the best to your hand and sense of how it should be balanced. Your sense, not someone elses.

Having spent far too many years with lunatics, I carry 3 (or more). Small, elegant folder for daily work that doesn't scare the public when I use it. Big, scary and fast blade that I do not open in public unless I need to convince someone to look for easier prey. (works like a charm) A third for my "off hand" in case my "on hand" is busy.

I spend time working with each on both drawing as well as actions/biomechanics. For fun, try hitting a double end bag with your right hand and trying to draw with your left hand. (don't stab the bag)

But hey, that's just me.

Vince

[Scott Sonnon]

Similarly, I was working on getting out the "Blade Boxing" syllabus a few years ago. Place a trainer in your stronghand and work the bag for 15 minutes. Place the trainer in your leadhand and work the bag for 15 minutes more. After two weeks of practice, perform Soft-work with a partner and you'll discover some very unique training effects.

[JasonE]

I am not accustomed to carrying knives, as my daily live rarely requires one. However, I do love my Gerber and Leatherman multi-tools, and they are lovely improvised weapons. Legally, they are not looked at primarily as weapons, so if used it is more defensible should things come to court.

My personal preference for defense is the Gerber, as it fits my hand nicely for wrapping a fist around, but I can still snap the pliers out with the flick of a wrist. The sound of the pliers deploying is similar to that of a switchblade, another benefit.

Then you have all the offensive possibilities of the plier tips...

Does anyone here work much with pliers or multi-tools as improvised weapons? Any recommendations on information for training their use?

Jason E

[Vbrown]

"Does anyone here work much with pliers or multi-tools as improvised weapons? Any recommendations on information for training their use?"

Besides practise? 8)

#1 is to practise drawing it in a weapon mindset. Draw it from every wierd angle you can put yourself into. If you can't draw it, it becomes useless.

Then try working on drawing it while your other hand is doing something else. With a partner, create space to draw it, use that hand to off balance him etc. If you are alone, try shadow boxing and then fit in drawing it, etc.

Thirdly, get a good chunk of 4x4 or larger and hang it (a swinging pel essentially) and get used to hitting it with the tool in various configurations. You'll find out which grips work for you and which don't.

I can't stress working on getting a fluid draw down pat in all sorts of situations. Power is easy to get, skill is a booger.

There is gobs of carry-over from fisticuffs and the blade/carbine tapes. The only quirky thing for you is the draw.

the downside to all this is that how you use the tool in your daily life WILL change. Your attitude with it, how you present it, etc. You'll probably get some wierd looks.

As far as a knife; I never carry one smaller than will reach the bottom of a peanut butter jar. I've made many more PB&J than I've had to pull a blade, and haven't had to do more than a threatening gesture at that. But I make a great sandwich now.

FWIW,

Vince[/quote]

[David Whitley, RKC]

Drills that practice drawing under stress are indeed useful & overlooked. Here are some that i teach/use:

1.get in push-up position. draw from your normal carry spot with either hand.

2.lie on your side. draw from your normal carry spot with either hand.

3. have someone throw things at you ( water balloons are fun).draw from your normal carry spot with either hand.