Additional Low Carb Health Questions -

[cqc10]

There is a difference in there being insufficient evidence to support an assertion and in there being evidence to the contrary.

One argument I have heard on this board is that there are no studies proving that low-carb is healthy. Are there studies that prove that low-carb is unhealthy?

One may cite saturated fat studies, but those are not studies done on people following a low-carb diet. There are indications that aspects of a low-carb lifestyle could be unhealthy, but since these were not done on those following a low-carb lifestyle, how far can we take the findings? (perhaps it is the combination of carbs / sat. fats that cause the problem??)

I'm not taking a stance, but I am asking a question. There are some smart people on this board, and I'm curious if they are skeptical of low-carb because it lacks evidence of its health benefits, or are they skeptical because they know of solid evidence contradicting the health of a low-carb approach?

I'm not trying to start a "religious" discussion, but I am curious about whether it is lack of evidence in the affirmative, or the existence of evidence to the contrary. (or both)

Thanks!

[circular]

I'm not trying to start a "religious" discussion Just a reminder... This board shall remain about sharing personal experience and results. Studies are useful tools of reference - with limitations. On other forums, personal experience is bracketed as being "anecdotal". CST Forum holds personal experience to be more powerful and relevant than studies.

All people at CST Forum have been instructed (and continually reminded) to share personal experience over promoting the 'absolute' authority - read the Coach Sonnon's Musing entitled "The Answer is No-Thing" (http://www.circularstrengthmag.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=21)

Hopefully this "reminder" will prevent this thread from becoming "religiously zealous" and subsequently locked/deleted.

Thank you,
RMAX.tv Productions Management.

[Mike]

It seems to me that on a lot of other boards there's an over dependance on references. People won't believe anything without references, they don't really care about personal experience!

[cqc10]

A search for the truth should be commended - not restricted. As such, I seek "anecdotal" and scientific evidence. I see no reason why asking people for various scientific evidence is in any way a negative thing. If people become "religious" and unnecessarily argumentative, that should not be the fault of the honest inquisitor.

Personal experience is quite valid, but not if viewed in a vacuum. I would guess that the personal experiences people have had on this board have stemmed from diligent research into truth on their part.

I don't know why my question is taboo -

[Scott Sonnon]

Your question is not taboo. Our forum admin was trying to prevent any negativity from starting AFTER your sincere question (such as seen in various "Diet Wars" throughout the internet fora. I'm sure if you were worried and needed to caution that you didn't want to start a "religious" reaction, then too forum admins would be worried and needed to reinforce your comments.

If you peruse the forum, you'll see this reminder in quite a few places where hot topics arise: martial arts, weight loss, diet, strength, mass, flexibility, et cetera...

Enjoy!

[cqc10]

I in no way want to start a religious debate. I've seen enough of those get out of hand on discussion forums.

:D

CQC,

The difficulty is with the nature of interpretation and the brevity of life.

The ''carbs are good, fat is bad" thing has been going on for 30 years while people get fatter. Now we find out that the "food pyramid" will be modified based on info that's been around a long time. And trust it will only be changed to a degree that will maintain plausable deniability.

Thus, refering to a study, informing tribes members of interesting info is all for the good. We tend to respect exploration and personal comittment even more. Tell us about what you read, what your experience is, what your doing to reach your goals - that's the stuff that you get here that's missing elsewhere.

Bill

[Doug Szolek]

One argument I have heard on this board is that there are no studies proving that low-carb is healthy. Are there studies that prove that low-carb is unhealthy?

Where have you heard this argument and who was making it? Not to call them out mind you but so that you could more accurately target your sincere search for truth to those who have raised the question.

To be honest, I think the majority of discussion I've seen here is in favor of some form of low-carb eating plan. (Not to say that those in agreement are "right" (whatever that is) but just to illustrate my confusion with the context of your question.)

If you've read an opinion of one here that was speaking against low-carb eating, then ask them specifically why they do not see it as beneficial for their life and health.

With something as foundational as diet (which becomes US) it is easy to become too attached to our own opinions and the opinions of those who also share time and thought on this forum. To make this environment less conducive to this attachment, keep your questions targeted, honest and rooted in your own experience.

[cqc10]

I'm following Ellis' recommendations and they are tremendously helpful. This low-carb approach is the best I've read, and I've read several books on the subject.

The typical accusations hurled at the low-carb approach is the standard saturated fat line. (e.g., it causes colon cancer, heart disease, etc.)

The anti low-carb crowd does not seem to have proof that low-carb is unhealthy. There may be insufficient proof that it is healthy, but substantial evidence exist even if it exist in the form of "anecdotal" evidence.

I was just sort of curious about how people felt about the issue. Low carb "ellis style" works for me - it works extremely well in fact. What I cannot conclude from external observation and subjective feeling is the condition of my heart or my increased or decreased chances of cancer, etc. That is where I feel I must at least be knowledgeable about various studies / debates so I can make an informed decision based upon more than my thin waist line and overwell sense of well being.

Based purely upon results and feeling, low-carb "ellis style" has been amazing. I'd just feel a bit better if I understood the long term health implications better. :D

[Connie Brown]

A couple of thoughts come to mind for me.

I enjoyed the low-carb discussion in the Schwarzbein Principle. The author does not use epidemiological studies and explains why she side-steps them. Then, she talks about the basic science of metabolism which is part of standard medical training and accepted. Her arguments might ease your mind about how metabolism works and why the suspected link between dietary saturated fat, and our bad lipid profiles, has not been proven yet.

Also, it is clear that NO one knows enough yet. It makes sense too when you think of the scientific method. How many variables are we studying? protein, fat, carb, exercise, starting level of health? The scientific method says you would make a study for each variable that isolates the variable, peer review it, and show it's repeatable. Then you would do one that compares two of them, peer review it, and show it's repeatable. And do that for every permutation. I ain't waiting for all that.

I personally use my own doctor-type numbers to track progress. Since I quit the nasty carbs, my lipid profile and blood pressure dropped back to normal - and this is still while retaining extra body fat. And this is with lots of the incredible edible egg. 3 years now.

By contrast, I know a couple who buy into the low-fat thing, and since their regime started, their profiles have worsened - higher triglycerides, pre-diabetes, hypertension meds. They still eat the nasty carbs thinking fat is the enemy.

The thing about anecdotal evidence - when we see it over and over, it does add up. And it is still evidence.

[humilispuer]

Personaly Experience:

Currently I am following NHE - a Cyclic low carb plan, still low carb though.
My blood pressure has dropped tremendously - 135/85 to 115/60
My HDL/LDL ratio has improved dramatically
My mood is much more stable - I used to be a real prick :twisted:
My performance is better in all athletic pursuits
My energy level has sky-rocketed
My physique has never looked better

All in all, I am in favor of a low carb plan :D

Sidenote: If you are interested in the potential health benefits of a low carb diet, I would strongly recommend "Life Without Bread," by Wolfgang Lutz. He has been treating patients, with various ailments, with a low carb diet, for 40 years with astounding success.

-Humilis

[cqc10]

I imagine I'll just need to get some bloodwork drawn up at some point.

I wish I knew my body fat %. I can see my abs (barely), so I'm guessing no more than 12% and perhaps 11%.

Historically, my cholesterol hasn't been that bad.

[humilispuer]

CQ, let's say you are at 11% right now - where do you want to be bodyfat wise? Just curious. Also, I would suggest getting that bloodwork done before you go on the low carb diet and then 3-6 months in to the diet. While most people will respond favorably to low carb, some people will not. I know people who have tons of energy and are "ripped" eating a very high carb diet - some things we just can not explain :wink:

-Humilis

[cqc10]

In all truth, I'm much more concerned with being ridiculously strong and flexible - not aesthetics - but STILL it would be nice.

I've been low-carbing for 3 months now - I weighed 178 when I started, and I wasn't really intent on losing a lot of weight - just a few pounds - I'm 172 or so now - (I've done low-carb before when I porked up too much)

I started back up to help my wife - She needed to lose weight after giving birth 7 months ago. I put her on low-carb (Ellis style) and I did it with her to help encourage her. She's done fantastic. Kettlebells, walking, and low-carb and she's lost 20 pounds in 9 weeks.

I know what my bloodwork was a year ago so I sort of have base line to work from.

[circular]

One argument I have heard on this board is that there are no studies proving that low-carb is healthy. Are there studies that prove that low-carb is unhealthy?

Where have you heard this argument and who was making it? Not to call them out mind you but so that you could more accurately target your sincere search for truth to those who have raised the question.
He didn't read any arguments at CST Forum which is why he didn't answer your question. He cross posted this question from Dragondoor.com: http://dragondoor.com/cgi-bin/tpost.pl?smessage=234593&tpstate=nutrition rather than writing relevant to the content of CST Forum (where there have not been any "arguments" of such.) This is why he was warned about importing flammable topics.

[cqc10]

Why pick on me?

I'm simply curious about what the CST community thinks and what the Dragon Door community thinks. You are assuming that the arguments I have heard against low-carb originated on DD. You assumption is wrong as I have read these arguments elsewhere.

I am not trying to start "wars" but simply generate intelligent discussion.

Is newcomer harassment a standard procedure on the CST forums?

Coach Sonnon saw no problem with my post -

[cqc10]

I have received civil and intelligent responses to my question. The only problem I've had is from the Admin who feels he must warn me. (Even though I have never tried in any way to cause problems here or anywhere else)

[Scott Sonnon]

Please chill. No one harassed you. You wrote in your initial post that you "have heard on this board". Anyone reading this would assume you meant here at CST. If you hadn't cross-posted there wouldn't be any confusion. I'm sure that this thread like all the others at CST remain civil because our forum admin runs a tight ship. If you have relevant CST questions, then feel free to ask away.

[cqc10]

My fault - I did not realize I implied that in my post!
sorry about that -