fencing?

[peterng25]

First: I feel that Mr. Sonnon deserves my growing respect. I purchased BF after reading reviews on Amazon, including negative ones. Even before I read this book, I was tending towards agreeing with coach Sonnon, because I sensed that he was coming from a perspective that could truly help others. I was fully justified after practicing BME and kinetic chains for a little while. My body is mine again, wrestled away from fear-reactivity.
I am waiting for fisticuffs the video with great anticipation. I think it should give me insight into striking.
My question is, coach, I do not doubt you can show me fresh insights in striking, grappling, and joint breaking (I am referring to IOUF and Arthrokinetics, which I will inevitably get). Have you thought of fencing? (foil, saber, epee, the olympic sports).
I believe you did mention fencing in passing somewhere in your works, and you do have a work out on bayonets, etc... So, how do you feel about swords, and could you apply your genius to enlighten us on this field?
Thanks for replying

[Scott Sonnon]

Peter,

Please observe our forum courtesy policy and begin by posting an introduction to your background and your interests here at RMAX including your full real name in the signature.

I had only limited coaching by the Russian fencing coach in Olympic style. Most of my training was in saber and shashka (and of course bayonet fencing sport - both Olympic and combat style competition). Regardless, I believe that you'll find the sword and blade work in the BAYONET Blade Biomechanics series to be of benefit.

There are quite a few fencers on board, so maybe they can jump in if you have specific questions.

[JasonE]

Peter -

I believe you will find the Bayonet material particularly interesting, particularly the concepts of wielding the weapon with your body as opposed to with the arm.

As a spoiler, I'm going to tell you that the Body-Flow concepts of integrating your breathing, structure and movement apply directly to the weapon material. As your Body-Flow improves you will find more and more direct translation into your sword work.

[peterng25]

You gentlemen are so cool!!
2 replies within a couple of hours, and I am pretty darn sure they are from people with very deep and refreshingly innovative knowledge.
Just my way of trying to say thanks. :D
Here's a question: do you think it would be worthwhile to make olympic fencing more realistic, more a martial art, less a dueling art? Would it improve the practitioner in the sense of developing self-confidence, and perhaps combat fear, of the kind coach Sonnon is fighting so well?
Finally, is it possible that by studying coach's method, I could 'be the master fencer I was born to be'?

[Connie Brown]

is it possible that by studying coach's method, I could 'be the master fencer I was born to be'?
yes, absolutely, and even beyond.


do you think it would be worthwhile to make olympic fencing more realistic, more a martial art, less a dueling art? Would it improve the practitioner in the sense of developing self-confidence, and perhaps combat fear, of the kind coach Sonnon is fighting so well?
Check out what Mushtaq is doing in this area and tell us what you think. It makes ME want to.

Softwork-Hardwork Continuum Fencing (http://www.circularstrengthmag.com/35/ali.html)

[Scott Sonnon]

Peter,

Olympic style fencing is its own reward, path and process. Taking it to its DEPTH rather than trying to modify it to be more "realistic" will provide much greater dividends in my opinion. Master one thing, and master 10,000.

"Realism" is a buzz-word of the martial art industry. It has no reality outside of that commercial business. It's not the 'reality' of the play which matters, since it's ONLY about play. Play by definition has no need for "realism."

There are plenty of resources on historical armed combat such as http://www.thehaca.com/ The HACA provides competitive resistance to historical armed combat where some other organizations do not. One cannot address one's layers of fear-reactivity without incrementally progressive resistance to manifest and challenge the ego's attachments.

Don't try to fight fear. Embrace it. Then transcend it. This is what RMAX offers - a meta-system of integrating movement, structure and breathing in whatever activity you enjoin.

[StuMcD]

Here's a question: do you think it would be worthwhile to make olympic fencing more realistic, more a martial art, less a dueling art?


Hey Peter,

Alot of people have already had this idea and put it into practice. There are two (not necessarily opposed) groups of people doing this all over the world.

The first is the "classical fencing" community. These people have either reconstructed or have living lineages in the duelling epee and sabre and the accompanying training in the foil (traditionally only a practice weapon). There are alot of very good people doing this all over the world.

A good place to learn about these folks is www.classicalfencing.org or www.martinez-destreza.com, the latter having information on both historical and classical fencing.

The second is the "historical fencing community. These people are reconstructing the arts from manuals and treatises, some of which have been dated as being as old as 1400 and arguably older. These manuals are painstakingly transcribed and then translated into modern English.

A good place to learn about historical fencing is www.swordforum.com where you can hook up with links to groups all over the world along with online manuals.

Back to what HF'ers do. The plays/instructions in these manuals are put into practice just like most other martial arts.......and there IMHO lies the problem. Even more so than in most traditional arts, the average historical fencer will fight purely (and literally) by the book stifling his own creativity and therefore destroying flow with technique.

IMHO if you want to free yourself from traditional fencing and gain mastery, grab Scott's Blade Biomechanics tapes, pick up a bayonet waster and a knife, learn his training method for these weapons and only then start to apply your skills to the sword.
Cheers,
Stu.

[JasonE]

Peter -

It didn't occur to me to question which type of fencing/swordplay you had in mind, as all types of blade work seem (to me) to be based upon the same essential principles. To my own unorthodox perspective, each "style" is merely one preferred set of applications of those same principles, the preferences arising from the design of the tool, the rules of engagement, cultural tradition, etc. Ultimately, I think that mastering the principles would enable one to rapidly achieve competence in many (or any) form of fencing, even though mastery would still require some time delving deep into the particulars of a particular style.

My own practice of FMA stick and knife methods has temporarily fallen to the side, but on rare training opportunities, I find that it takes very little time to shake off the rust and reassert myself. My even rustier Japanese kenjutsu was recently put to the test when I attended the BBQ of a friend that teaches aikido and batto-ryu. With the arrival of a pickup full of tatami, the blades came out and for the first time in 8+ years I doing some test-cutting with a live blade. Again, my recent practice of integrating breath, structure and movement came to the rescue, and most of my cuts were true and surprisingly clean.

I've been taught that a well-wielded weapon is an extension of your arm, and the arm is just an extension of the body controlled by the mind. Thus it is that if you train the integration of mind and body, your weapon work will improve, sometimes in most unexpected ways.

One last unorthodox thought for you: Have you tried training fencing with your off-hand? As a left-handed person in a right-handed world, I have found that training my off-side augments skill development with my dominant side, and I experience much less training-related frustration. My limited exposure to traditional schools of fencing indicates that the off-hand is rarely trained, or at least not nearly so much as the dominant side, and this seems like a missed opportunity.

[Chuck Kechter]

Right on Stu, and Jason!

Good stuff!

And Jason, I am right there with you on being left handed in a right hand world. . .


I have found that training my off-side augments skill development with my dominant side, and I experience much less training-related frustration.

I do the same thing. . . Going so far as to "teach" myself to write, play tennis, weapon work (gun, knife, stick, sword, et cetera), eat with chop sticks, Clubbell play, and so on. . . Good stuff!

[peterng25]

Thanks for giving me so much and so readily.
I've met world champion fencers (one in his 80's...). I've had MA seminars with some famous names.
But never was I ever given a hint that I could create my own fencing or MA style. I always thought that I'd be tremendously lucky to end up in my old age playing tennis and fencing a bit.
You seem to embody the concept of 'everyone being a master of their own personal style'. Thanks for facilitating my search for my own personal path in life. What you're doing here represents, to me, what is right about the world.
Sincerely

Peter Nguyen
San Diego, CA

[Scott Sonnon]

Peter,

It's not a precept. It's a fact. There are as many styles as there are people on the planet. It's just that some chose to be followers rather than allowing their inherent mastery to manifest.

We are all born masterful... always and already.

[peterng25]

I received Fisticuffs tape 1 last week and have viewed it once.
My impression: the next day, I was sparring, and noticed that I was noticeably less aware, (almost unaware) of my surroundings the way I usually was. I mean, I was aware of everyone, but not in the sense of 'there's so-and-so, I should say h'lo', 'that person looks like he needs cheering up'... But it was also beyond indifference to my environment, more relaxed perception, towards the state of serenity. Really weird! Remember, I was in the chaos of combat. IOW, I could see it works!
To be so bold, I'd compare Scott Sonnon's work to that of some of the great psychologists of the 20th century who explored separation of subjective and objective experience. What I experienced: clearly, coach Sonnon can explain a concept once, and he makes you feel as if you've just discovered a new room in a house you've lived in for years. You're free from then on to go to that room and observe your life at your heart's content.
Scott, is this what you mean by: every man his own master of his own style?

Peter

[Scott Sonnon]

Scott, is this what you mean by: every man his own master of his own style?
Peter

Peter,

Does it matter if that is what I meant if you've brought such a profound meaning to you? :wink:

But yes, that's exactly what I allude to when I say 'personal mastery'. I love the metaphor of turning on the lights in a house you've lived in for years. Martial art styles offer you maps to navigate around where you'll bump into things in the dark. But that house has always and already been your own. Who are they to suggest you need a map? Yes, it may be somewhat useful; especially if you spend decades in memorizing the environment blindly. But... it's just so much easier to turn on the lights, :D

Keep sharing your great insights and reports!