oleg_yakimovich
11-12-2003, 10:39 AM
I’d like to share my experience in knife throwing I gained
from April to November this year. This challenging and fun activity (and one of the most ancient combat skills) has never been discussed on the Forum as long as I remember and I hope my posting will eventually inspire fellow martial artists to join and share their insights.
My own motivation was a mixture of entertainment and exploration of auxiliary training directions for certain combat attributes - eye-hand coordination, precise distance evaluation, power generation, etc. (And, of course there was also that "inner seven’s" fascination of action movies and westerns episodes, just delayed in implementation for a few decades :)
Another "serious" consideration was: as a ROSS hand-to-hand instructor among other things I teach defense against knife. ROSS emphasizes highly developed dexterity and close familiarity with knives - grip, balance, edges and planes which allows for effective blade manipulations (see Coach Sonnon's BLADE BIOMECHANICS (http://www.rmax.tv/bayonet.html) video series. Knife throwing (especially with the blade grip) is, in a sense an ultimate benchmark of those skills compacted into a complex motion lasting less than a second.
This year it was my second attempt to approach the subject and taking a more focused approached I’ve essentially improved my skills. (The first, short lived attempt a year ago had failed as it was purely empirical following enthusiastic but inattentive review of the tapes listed in Sources* below. The knives kept slapping the target chaotically and I abandoned the effort with certain frustration back then.)
This time I thoroughly studied a number of printed and video materials and got a few decent throwing knives before heading to the field trials. More exactly, "wood" trials as my targets were dead tree trunks in the old unattended forest nearby.
The first breakthrough was achieved on attentive review of the (1). In this tape Bob Taylor does a great job of explaining nuances of short-distance handle-grip throwing technique which he calls "Power Throwing".
He also suggests valuable auxiliary exercises which can be safely performed indoors with rubber knives or sticks emulating real throwers. Bob presents his techniques from a self-defense perspective which can be of interest for those who see knife throwing as not just an entertaining activity and sport but as a combat skill.
Watching the tape and studying a few extra Internet resources in Russian I successfully internalized and start to apply the following fundamental concepts without which no serious progress can be achieved:
- practically all the throw power is generated by pelvis rotation;
- wrist's role is to release knife timely, and it should not have any flipping motion. The flipping leads to uncontrollable rotational component. Thus, the wrist provides in a sense a virtual sheath from which the knife is drawn to the direction of the target by a momentum generated by hips;
- arm shoould not drop below the target, it follows through the direction of the throw. I have a feeling of a "rail" extending to the target when the throw is a success. No whip motion is allowed*
*imaging smacking an ace on the card table - for a good sound effect you want to release the card so it flies flat, without rotation
These principles are universal and mentioned in one form on another in all of the Sources* but the "Power Throwing" approach provides an immediate feedback as you exclude a number of variables from otherwise pretty complex set of equations modeling knife’s flight. For curious ones (5) dwells more into the physics and math of the process (it also has interesting suggestions for tracking training progress and result assessment).
Here is my short clip (http://force-vector.4t.com/clips/kt/Handle_Grip_6ft.mov) illustrating handle grip throwing from a distance of about 6 feet. The blade rotation from the moment of release to hitting the target is minimal, just a few degrees.
Please note that short distance throwing is especially dangerous activity (see Safety* section) because in case of knife deflecting back from the target the time to react is really short.
The next stage was to increase the distance, which assumes switching to the blade grip.
I set my training distance to about 12 feet (http://force-vector.4t.com/clips/kt/Blade_Grip_12ft.mov). My observation is that a distance of about 8 feet as a practical minimum for the blade grip as knife has to rotate 180 degrees before hitting the target. Given the same grip and rotation and switching grip closer to the handle (thus decreasing rotational component) I achieved persistent results up to 15 feet range.
This is another important principle to realize - you adapt to the distance thru the period of knife rotation which, in turn depends of proximity of the grip to the center of mass. The closer to the tip, the shorter the distance. The closer to the center (handle), the longer the distance to the point where tip of the knife is at ideal 90 degree to the target.
Some practical limitations apply here: it’s really difficult to control shorter blades as there is not enough room to vary the grip position relative to the knife center of mass. And, on longer distances lighter knifes are apparently affected by air friction (more on the subject in (6).
My general conclusion is that blade grip is inherently more stable as variation of (throwable) knives blade shapes is less than that of their handles. For the first 6 months or so I would also suggest concentrating on classical throw from behind the head. Upon that period I’ve started to feel comfortable to experiment with variations like throwing across the body or from below.
Knife Selection
Overall, my impression is that specialized "throwers" not necessarily fly better than a well balanced combat knife. You’ll eventually empirically define your favorite one. Mine is definitely Austrian Glock Military Knife (http://www.glockstore.com/pgroup_detail.php?pgroupid=52)
It’s rather a matter of practicality to use specialized throwers for training.
It’s a pity to abuse a solid combat knife, and knife throwing is a really tough test.
Specialized throwers are generally cheaper and simpler in design. They are normally flat, thus providing smoother switch from handle to blade grip. They don’t damage each other that much (when you precision improves there are growing chances of subsequent knives hitting and damaging handles of those already in the target).
Of throwers I liked Gil Hibben’s designs the most http://www.glockstore.com/pgroup_detail.php?pgroupid=62)
His book (4) is a real inspiration and you’ll find a lot of interesting thoughts on knife design and selection, proper target construction and safety. Gil addresses knife throwing from sport and entertainment angle.
Of others, ColdSteel’s "True Flight" (http://www.coldsteel.com/fixed-blades-throwers.html) is great (with the only reservation that I managed to break one of the two I had).
I also used a number of no-name combat, kitchen and hunting knives but concluded it was just a waste of time and money as they got broken too fast. The only positive outcome was eventually an ability to quickly adapt your grip to a variety of knives.
Other "Throwables"
Of course it’s a great fun to try other "throwables"
like ColdSteel Torpedo (http://www.coldsteel.com/fixed-blades-throwers.html), an axe, short entrenchment shovel, etc. ColdSteel DVD (3) contains impressive demonstrations of throwing of a whole collection of the company products - knives, tomahawks, spears, axes. I also recommend Vladimir Vasiliev’s video (2) and, if you have a chance, to attend a live demo by him. I watched it once on a seminar arranged by Alex Wilkie in NJ and it was amazing! Vladimir performed about 20 consequent throws of a variety of knives, nails and other implements brought by different people, from 5-6 different grips and positions, seemingly without special effort and preparation. All hit the target and a guy which headed to retrieve them had to put much effort extracting them from the target.
Here are my own modest attempts with an axe (http://force-vector.4t.com/clips/kt/Axe_20ft.mov)
and the Torpedo (http://force-vector.4t.com/clips/kt/Torpedo_20ft.mov).
Self Defense Aspects
While (6) is strongly tinged with Ninja folklore it’s the only source which addresses an interesting subject of defending against knife being thrown at you. The author suggests interesting training methods with rubber knives which allow to model behavior of both sides. In my own training I followed some of these outlines which are very close to recollections on training methods of former-USSR special troops I heard about from my friends which actually served in "hot spots".
It is from this position when one eventually starts to realize actual chances of a knife throwing attacker (counter-attacker).
My conclusion is that probability of successfully defending yourself by knife throwing varies from: highly probable on short distances (see, "The Power Throwing" (1) as there is not enough time to avoid being hit) to highly unlikely on distances exceeding 12-15 feet - an opponent expecting the attack will be practically always able to avoid it. So the area of combat applicability narrows down to situations when the opponent is completely unprepared or can not change his position/course (for example running away or at you fast).
An element of surprise can be introduced by unexpected maneuvers like rolls, there are nice examples in (2) and here are some demonstrations (http://force-vector.4t.com/clips/kt/Roll_And_Throw.mov) by truly yours.
Another aspect is a moral effect - even a prospect of a rubber knife flying at you is quite demoralizing. And if you remember that fragment from the "Bodyguard" when a guy just would not stop resuming attacks at a character played by Kevin Costner until a flying stilletto hit kicthen board a few inches of his head. Again, this is a movie but put eye protection on and ask your training partner to throw a few rubber knives at you and you’ll realize what I’m talking about.
Finally, the "last ditch" scenarios. Those in (1) including a gung being drawn at a person having a knife or screw driver at hand from a distance of 6 or so feet. Throwing the knife seems to be a valid choice.
Summarizing my opinion: it's applicable if you’re either a higly trained and talented professional, or there are absolutely no other choices. Other scenarios seem to be dangeorus show-offs, especially if the knife is your only weapon. Under the stress you’ll most probably just provide your opponent with an additional weapon.
Safety Considerations
First of all, please realize that knife throwing is more dangerous than many other martial art activities. It’s close to firearm training and should be treated with the same awarness, common sense and protection. It’s much less controllable though - while at the shooting range regulations are stricktly enforced, it is you and only you who is responsible for your knife throwing training safety. The knives can miss the target and fly extra 20 yards or more. They can be deflected from the target at an any angle, including straight back at you. And, because of the speed, their kinetic energy is 1.5-2 higher than your most powerfull thrust with knife kept by hand. Absolutely no human or pet can not be at the visinity of the target. Solid eye protection as that in racket sports is a good advice.
In 6+ months of my own training I once got my leg cut by a knife flying directly back covering a distance of 12 feet. Gil Hibben in (4) gives even more scary examples from his experience.
Another issue is the blades can be damaged in a number of ways, including broken or bent tip (I tore my thumb with one while blade grip throwing), dings and scratches. Stop using the knife with defects immediately until fixing them or discarding if beyond repair.
Finally, if training outdoors stick light bright colored bands to you knives
in order not to loose them in leaves or sand.
Indoors all the surfaces around the target should be thickly padded to avoid deflection and damage.
Good luck and enjoy your
training!
Sources
Video:
(1) "Power Throwing" by Bob Taylor (produced by TRS, http://www.trsdirect.com)
(2) Knife Fighting and Throwing (http://www.russianmartialart.com/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=2&products_id=33) by Vladimir Vasiliev
(3) More Proof (http://www.coldsteel.com/moreproof.html), a DVD by Cold Steel
Books:
(4) "The Complete Knife Throwing Guide" by Gil Hibben
(5) "Pananandata Guide To Knife Throwing" by Amante Marinas
(6) "Knife Throwing Techniques of the Ninja" by Michael Peters
from April to November this year. This challenging and fun activity (and one of the most ancient combat skills) has never been discussed on the Forum as long as I remember and I hope my posting will eventually inspire fellow martial artists to join and share their insights.
My own motivation was a mixture of entertainment and exploration of auxiliary training directions for certain combat attributes - eye-hand coordination, precise distance evaluation, power generation, etc. (And, of course there was also that "inner seven’s" fascination of action movies and westerns episodes, just delayed in implementation for a few decades :)
Another "serious" consideration was: as a ROSS hand-to-hand instructor among other things I teach defense against knife. ROSS emphasizes highly developed dexterity and close familiarity with knives - grip, balance, edges and planes which allows for effective blade manipulations (see Coach Sonnon's BLADE BIOMECHANICS (http://www.rmax.tv/bayonet.html) video series. Knife throwing (especially with the blade grip) is, in a sense an ultimate benchmark of those skills compacted into a complex motion lasting less than a second.
This year it was my second attempt to approach the subject and taking a more focused approached I’ve essentially improved my skills. (The first, short lived attempt a year ago had failed as it was purely empirical following enthusiastic but inattentive review of the tapes listed in Sources* below. The knives kept slapping the target chaotically and I abandoned the effort with certain frustration back then.)
This time I thoroughly studied a number of printed and video materials and got a few decent throwing knives before heading to the field trials. More exactly, "wood" trials as my targets were dead tree trunks in the old unattended forest nearby.
The first breakthrough was achieved on attentive review of the (1). In this tape Bob Taylor does a great job of explaining nuances of short-distance handle-grip throwing technique which he calls "Power Throwing".
He also suggests valuable auxiliary exercises which can be safely performed indoors with rubber knives or sticks emulating real throwers. Bob presents his techniques from a self-defense perspective which can be of interest for those who see knife throwing as not just an entertaining activity and sport but as a combat skill.
Watching the tape and studying a few extra Internet resources in Russian I successfully internalized and start to apply the following fundamental concepts without which no serious progress can be achieved:
- practically all the throw power is generated by pelvis rotation;
- wrist's role is to release knife timely, and it should not have any flipping motion. The flipping leads to uncontrollable rotational component. Thus, the wrist provides in a sense a virtual sheath from which the knife is drawn to the direction of the target by a momentum generated by hips;
- arm shoould not drop below the target, it follows through the direction of the throw. I have a feeling of a "rail" extending to the target when the throw is a success. No whip motion is allowed*
*imaging smacking an ace on the card table - for a good sound effect you want to release the card so it flies flat, without rotation
These principles are universal and mentioned in one form on another in all of the Sources* but the "Power Throwing" approach provides an immediate feedback as you exclude a number of variables from otherwise pretty complex set of equations modeling knife’s flight. For curious ones (5) dwells more into the physics and math of the process (it also has interesting suggestions for tracking training progress and result assessment).
Here is my short clip (http://force-vector.4t.com/clips/kt/Handle_Grip_6ft.mov) illustrating handle grip throwing from a distance of about 6 feet. The blade rotation from the moment of release to hitting the target is minimal, just a few degrees.
Please note that short distance throwing is especially dangerous activity (see Safety* section) because in case of knife deflecting back from the target the time to react is really short.
The next stage was to increase the distance, which assumes switching to the blade grip.
I set my training distance to about 12 feet (http://force-vector.4t.com/clips/kt/Blade_Grip_12ft.mov). My observation is that a distance of about 8 feet as a practical minimum for the blade grip as knife has to rotate 180 degrees before hitting the target. Given the same grip and rotation and switching grip closer to the handle (thus decreasing rotational component) I achieved persistent results up to 15 feet range.
This is another important principle to realize - you adapt to the distance thru the period of knife rotation which, in turn depends of proximity of the grip to the center of mass. The closer to the tip, the shorter the distance. The closer to the center (handle), the longer the distance to the point where tip of the knife is at ideal 90 degree to the target.
Some practical limitations apply here: it’s really difficult to control shorter blades as there is not enough room to vary the grip position relative to the knife center of mass. And, on longer distances lighter knifes are apparently affected by air friction (more on the subject in (6).
My general conclusion is that blade grip is inherently more stable as variation of (throwable) knives blade shapes is less than that of their handles. For the first 6 months or so I would also suggest concentrating on classical throw from behind the head. Upon that period I’ve started to feel comfortable to experiment with variations like throwing across the body or from below.
Knife Selection
Overall, my impression is that specialized "throwers" not necessarily fly better than a well balanced combat knife. You’ll eventually empirically define your favorite one. Mine is definitely Austrian Glock Military Knife (http://www.glockstore.com/pgroup_detail.php?pgroupid=52)
It’s rather a matter of practicality to use specialized throwers for training.
It’s a pity to abuse a solid combat knife, and knife throwing is a really tough test.
Specialized throwers are generally cheaper and simpler in design. They are normally flat, thus providing smoother switch from handle to blade grip. They don’t damage each other that much (when you precision improves there are growing chances of subsequent knives hitting and damaging handles of those already in the target).
Of throwers I liked Gil Hibben’s designs the most http://www.glockstore.com/pgroup_detail.php?pgroupid=62)
His book (4) is a real inspiration and you’ll find a lot of interesting thoughts on knife design and selection, proper target construction and safety. Gil addresses knife throwing from sport and entertainment angle.
Of others, ColdSteel’s "True Flight" (http://www.coldsteel.com/fixed-blades-throwers.html) is great (with the only reservation that I managed to break one of the two I had).
I also used a number of no-name combat, kitchen and hunting knives but concluded it was just a waste of time and money as they got broken too fast. The only positive outcome was eventually an ability to quickly adapt your grip to a variety of knives.
Other "Throwables"
Of course it’s a great fun to try other "throwables"
like ColdSteel Torpedo (http://www.coldsteel.com/fixed-blades-throwers.html), an axe, short entrenchment shovel, etc. ColdSteel DVD (3) contains impressive demonstrations of throwing of a whole collection of the company products - knives, tomahawks, spears, axes. I also recommend Vladimir Vasiliev’s video (2) and, if you have a chance, to attend a live demo by him. I watched it once on a seminar arranged by Alex Wilkie in NJ and it was amazing! Vladimir performed about 20 consequent throws of a variety of knives, nails and other implements brought by different people, from 5-6 different grips and positions, seemingly without special effort and preparation. All hit the target and a guy which headed to retrieve them had to put much effort extracting them from the target.
Here are my own modest attempts with an axe (http://force-vector.4t.com/clips/kt/Axe_20ft.mov)
and the Torpedo (http://force-vector.4t.com/clips/kt/Torpedo_20ft.mov).
Self Defense Aspects
While (6) is strongly tinged with Ninja folklore it’s the only source which addresses an interesting subject of defending against knife being thrown at you. The author suggests interesting training methods with rubber knives which allow to model behavior of both sides. In my own training I followed some of these outlines which are very close to recollections on training methods of former-USSR special troops I heard about from my friends which actually served in "hot spots".
It is from this position when one eventually starts to realize actual chances of a knife throwing attacker (counter-attacker).
My conclusion is that probability of successfully defending yourself by knife throwing varies from: highly probable on short distances (see, "The Power Throwing" (1) as there is not enough time to avoid being hit) to highly unlikely on distances exceeding 12-15 feet - an opponent expecting the attack will be practically always able to avoid it. So the area of combat applicability narrows down to situations when the opponent is completely unprepared or can not change his position/course (for example running away or at you fast).
An element of surprise can be introduced by unexpected maneuvers like rolls, there are nice examples in (2) and here are some demonstrations (http://force-vector.4t.com/clips/kt/Roll_And_Throw.mov) by truly yours.
Another aspect is a moral effect - even a prospect of a rubber knife flying at you is quite demoralizing. And if you remember that fragment from the "Bodyguard" when a guy just would not stop resuming attacks at a character played by Kevin Costner until a flying stilletto hit kicthen board a few inches of his head. Again, this is a movie but put eye protection on and ask your training partner to throw a few rubber knives at you and you’ll realize what I’m talking about.
Finally, the "last ditch" scenarios. Those in (1) including a gung being drawn at a person having a knife or screw driver at hand from a distance of 6 or so feet. Throwing the knife seems to be a valid choice.
Summarizing my opinion: it's applicable if you’re either a higly trained and talented professional, or there are absolutely no other choices. Other scenarios seem to be dangeorus show-offs, especially if the knife is your only weapon. Under the stress you’ll most probably just provide your opponent with an additional weapon.
Safety Considerations
First of all, please realize that knife throwing is more dangerous than many other martial art activities. It’s close to firearm training and should be treated with the same awarness, common sense and protection. It’s much less controllable though - while at the shooting range regulations are stricktly enforced, it is you and only you who is responsible for your knife throwing training safety. The knives can miss the target and fly extra 20 yards or more. They can be deflected from the target at an any angle, including straight back at you. And, because of the speed, their kinetic energy is 1.5-2 higher than your most powerfull thrust with knife kept by hand. Absolutely no human or pet can not be at the visinity of the target. Solid eye protection as that in racket sports is a good advice.
In 6+ months of my own training I once got my leg cut by a knife flying directly back covering a distance of 12 feet. Gil Hibben in (4) gives even more scary examples from his experience.
Another issue is the blades can be damaged in a number of ways, including broken or bent tip (I tore my thumb with one while blade grip throwing), dings and scratches. Stop using the knife with defects immediately until fixing them or discarding if beyond repair.
Finally, if training outdoors stick light bright colored bands to you knives
in order not to loose them in leaves or sand.
Indoors all the surfaces around the target should be thickly padded to avoid deflection and damage.
Good luck and enjoy your
training!
Sources
Video:
(1) "Power Throwing" by Bob Taylor (produced by TRS, http://www.trsdirect.com)
(2) Knife Fighting and Throwing (http://www.russianmartialart.com/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=2&products_id=33) by Vladimir Vasiliev
(3) More Proof (http://www.coldsteel.com/moreproof.html), a DVD by Cold Steel
Books:
(4) "The Complete Knife Throwing Guide" by Gil Hibben
(5) "Pananandata Guide To Knife Throwing" by Amante Marinas
(6) "Knife Throwing Techniques of the Ninja" by Michael Peters